[Closed] FFS - less than a day and the "tighten the gun laws" knee-jerk starts...

If gun laws work, how did this happen?

If there were no gun laws, someone would have had a gun and shot him, thus saving several lives.

Well, given that this kind of thing is so common in the US that it doesn't even make the state news let alone national news, perhaps people have a point about gun control.

Although I thought we had quite strict gun control anyway?

There was no need for the last legislation. You can't legislate against everything.

Knee-jerk reaction again.

If there were no gun laws, someone would have had a gun and shot him, thus saving several lives.

Yeah, like in all the US school shootings, where hardly anyone gets killed.

Oh, hang on, they happen all the time, loads of.people get killed, the killers don't get shot until too late. Bugger, maybe that is a stupid argument after all.

The US has third world gun death rates, in the richest country in the world. Are people like you really so sick that you want that in this country too?

Joe

Nothing is 100% secure. The big picture needs to be looked at, ie anything involving money, drugs etc.

I held guns legally many years ago, including SLR's semi-auto pistols etc and had to stop the hobby because of some stupid idiots. Since those days we've had tighter gun control and this sort of tragedy still goes on and show it shows those controls failed. Guns will find there way into this country, just as drugs do and it'll never get stopped. All it will do is punish responsible gun-owners as it did then and the dreamers will believe they've stopped it from happening and then one black day in the future it WILL happen again! Paxman's a cock of the highest order anyway.

epicyclo - Member

"If gun laws work, how did this happen?"

Hadge - Member

"Since those days we've had tighter gun control and this sort of tragedy still goes on and show it shows those controls failed."

Look, I like guns, they're fantastic tools and generally interesting and fascinating kit. But you can't say "How did this happen" without asking "Has it prevented any other such killings". It most likely has IMO but you can never know. You don't look at the few that happen, you consider how few do happen.

Used to do a lot of shooting myself when i was younger. This one will make the headlines, and doubtless call-me-dave will put in some pointless knee-jerk legislation to pacify the daily mail. But the massive majority of shootings - low-level drug dealer shoots low-level drug dealer will be carried out with converted starter pistols by scrotes. They just won't make the front pages

What hadge said.

I'm sure having tighter controls will stop the Real IRA/Al Quieda (spelling?) getting hold of guns. Banning stuff always stops criminals getting hold of it.

Might have taken it to extemis but you get the point.

Personally I'm in favour of banning all firearms anyway, far too many people out shooting rabbits/pheasents etc round here. That chap had a shotgun, hopefully they'll be banned soon.
[s]Bear baiting[/s]
[s]Hunting[/s]
Shooting
Fishing

I support removal of a hobby from a few to save a life (but not removal of a tool needed for work)

Gun control makes it harder to get hold of a gun and guns will be used/cause less problems. You will never stop the determined, but you do stop a lot of accidents, ill or unhinged etc. etc.

I'd have thought the gun control laws we have a strong enough though, in general.

I did precision target shooting - that's paper-punching as in "targets" but IMHO the most dangerous of all guns has always been the shotgun. The damage they can do close-quarters is immense compared to anything that fires a single bullet but as the snob fraternity and the Royals use them I doubt there will be any ban on them even after this very sad happening. I've never owned a shotgun and never would either.

So actually not really what Hadge said at all, unless it's irony i'm missing.

Tighter gun controls will stop this kind of thing happening, he was not a criminal before today. However, as Cinnamon_Girl said "You can't legislate against everything."

Sometimes, it just doesn't make sense.

Well, given that this kind of thing is so common in the US that it doesn't even make the state news let alone national news, perhaps people have a point about gun control.

I'm not trying to start an argument as so many do on here, but can you prove this as a quick google would say to me it is perhaps slightly more over there over a long time period and a far greater population.

You have to accept that banning guns seems to work

After Hungerford, automatic and semi-automatic rifles were banned, and since then we've had no mass killing with automatic or semi-automatic rifles.

After Dunblane, handguns were banned, and since then we've had no mass killings with handguns.

However, the Cumbria killings were done with a shotgun, and shotguns are quintesentially Tory weapons, used by farmers and other rich landowners.

What chance millionaire Dave and his 12 other millionaire Cabinet collegues banning shotguns?

About as likely as the Issraelis volunteering to stop slaughtering civilians

Guns will find there way into this country, just as drugs do and it'll never get stopped.

Are there any statistics available? FWIW I totally disagreed with the legislation but then I don't see anything wrong with hunting, shooting, fishing etc.

Actually, we did have some world-class shooters who suffered due to this legislation. In fact as a family we used to enjoy the annual day out at Bisley where we could try out all sorts of weapons in a controlled environment.

You can't just rush through ill thought-out legislation to appease Joe Public. Some things just can not be blamed on XYZ.

Who is this "Joe Public" you speak of? He has a an awful lot to answer for.

in the U.K. people kill each other every day with illegal weapons especially pistols despite them being banned, tighter gun laws will do nothing to stop this as the laws only effect legitimate gun owners.
7 people died on the roads today and the seriously injured is into 3 figures*
but 155mph cars are legal in this country when the speed limit is 75.
a madmen on the loose with a legally held gun happens about once a decade.
shotguns/rifles are about as likely to be banned as fast cars.

*ROSPA yearly figures averaged

shotguns are quintesentially Tory weapons, used by farmers and other rich landowners.

That gets the prize for the most ridiculous statement of the day 🙄

First off my sympathies to the families affected.

It’s pretty strict already to obtain a shotgun certificate already. In summary you have to apply giving all the same details as a passport ie proof of ID and a counter signatory as well as all criminal convictions including motoring offenses. You also have to give permission for you GP to provide any relevant medical details. Background checks will also be made on anyone living at the premises over 18. Once they are satisfied with that you are visited/interviewed by the firearms officer, they will ask why you want the gun - you must have a legitimate reason - and explain safety elements. Finally your security arrangements will be checked prior to the certificate being issued.

So if they check out the applicant for medical and criminal issues as well as others with potential access, it is technically an offence for anyone else to know where the cabinet keys are kept. I’m not sure what else could be done. A “nutter” will always find a way to vent their frustration or whatever it is.

Yep, won't change a thing....education on the other hand might....but i doubt it....this country likes providing situations to argue over..guns are fine..it's who owns them that might be a problem, like cars.

However, the Cumbria killings were done with a shotgun, and shotguns are quintesentially Tory weapons, used by farmers and other rich landowners.

do you actually think that or are you just saying that to spice up the debate a bit?

the annual day out at Bisley

Ahh Bisley. The old Parker-Hale modified SMLE. The bungalows. Target duty, when you hear the rounds snapping overhead. Patching the jolly old targets. Trying to remember whereabouts on the target to place the indicator lollipop.

How old are you, cinnamon girl?

eldridge - my son used to enjoy shooting at Army Cadets so we went to Bisley as he had expressed a desire to visit. We all enjoyed it.

Over 50, and you?

However, the Cumbria killings were done with a shotgun, and shotguns are quintesentially Tory weapons, used by farmers and other rich landowners.

do you actually think that or are you just saying that to spice up the debate a bit?

Cumbria killings done with shotgun: fact
Legally-owned shotguns mostly held by farmers and landowners: fact

What's your question, caller?

So what did Jeremy Paxman say then ?

I could kill a lot more people in my car than that bloke did with a gun: Fact.

The suggestion that people in Whitehaven should have been packing heat to pop down to the shops on a Wednesday morning is quite depressing

shotguns are quintesentially Tory weapons, used by farmers and other rich landowners.

That gets the prize for the most ridiculous statement of the day

So who the hell else has the right to own such a ferocious weapon?

Farmers and landowners (overwhelmingly Tory voters) need to own and use shotguns.

Eldridge there are an awful lot of folk who are honest, working class sort who own shotguns - stop being a ****t!

Quintessentially tory weapons - bollox..That chip on your shoulder giving you back ache?!

ps it aint hard to get a shotgun licence..as I recall there is no part of the process that requires owning a shooting estate in Scotland or an income in excess of £££...

MrSmith - Member

"in the U.K. people kill each other every day with illegal weapons especially pistols despite them being banned, tighter gun laws will do nothing to stop this as the laws only effect legitimate gun owners."

Do you know how many people are actually killed with guns here? Less than 1/5th as many as you seem to think. Can't find last year's numbers but 49 in 07/08 59 in 06/07, 49 in 05/06 (these figueres might be slightly shonky but they'll be close). Gun crime including posession went up for the first half of the decade, but that includes replica offences and possession- and guess what, banning previously legal guns increases possession offences.

(If I took my replica 1861 Colt Navy revolver or my little cap-firing flintlock and threw it at someone, that's a gun crime, even though neither of them is a gun, or could ever be made to fire a round.)

The idea that we have a gun crime epidemic in the UK is completely without basis tbh. Sorry to use the cliche but it's pure media hype. And the labout government weirdly allowed that and even played to it, apparently it's better to say "Oh, crime is terrible, we'll improve it" than "Crime isn't terrible, we already improved it". I guess it's a credibility thing.

Media playing god ...

😡

Over 50, and you?

Me too

I belong to the post-war generation that routinely received weapons training because it was what our fathers did.

I love guns. I have fired the SMLE, the Stirling SMG, the FN SLR, the Bren gun, as well as various small-bore target weapons.

Banning me from enjoying these weapons did not reduce the casualty rate one bit, because I am not a nutter.

Putting more money into identifying nutters would

[i]So who the hell else has the right to own such a ferocious weapon?

Farmers and landowners (overwhelmingly Tory voters) need to own and use shotguns. [/i]

Over 30 million people own cars in Britain where cars kill more than 3000 people a year and maim more than 16000 people a year.

Perspective is great isn't it?

an awful lot of folk who are honest, working class sort who own shotguns

Why in any sane world do these people need to own shotguns?

I love guns

I am not a nutter.

Oh the irony!

Perspective is great isn't it?

Only if your eyesight is OK

FFS a car is not a weapon

Deaths caused by cars are ACCIDENTS

The huge majority of deaths caused by shotguns are not acccients

Sadly, many of them are suicides

And now, a significant number of them are murder

Oh the irony!

You're a bit undereducated mate

It would only be irony if I went out and killed people with guns

I haven't done it yet, so you'll have to wait a bit before you can post:

"Ironically a STW member who said he loved guns but was not a nutter killed 12 people today.."

Where's this shotgun fact coming from?
There's been a guy on a few news programs today who said catagorically that it was not a shotgun and indeed was a very large rifle with a scope.
You can't fit a scope to a shotgun.

I own 3 shotguns for clay shooting. I'm not rich, posh or a landowner. I live in a modest terraced house actually.
One of the guns is now worth around 5k, what's it worth if they ban them next week?
How many of these mass killings were carried out with legal weapons?

Why in any sane world do these people need to own shotguns?

Hunting, pest control, clay pigeon shooting, biathlon.......................

joemarshall - Member
...The US has third world gun death rates, in the richest country in the world. Are people like you really so sick that you want that in this country too?

It's not sick to own a gun. It's sick to misuse it.

I have lived in communities where there were guns in almost every household and yet there was no gun crime. It's nothing to do with the gun, and everything to do with the person with the gun.

The big problem with gun laws are that criminals and nutters do not obey them, and never will. Gun laws are bandaid legislation.

Gun laws do not prevent gun violence. I'm sure Northern Ireland had some stringent gun laws, for example.

Im not defending them, not in the slightest. I used to shoot, a lot. But they (being shotgun owners & others) would argue that they need them for pest control, it provides a living (in some areas shooting estates do provide a substantial income to the locality) etc etc etc..& they would to a certain extent have a point..However trying to turn this into a political argument shows a lack of understanding about the rural demographic.

Guns are a ****ed up part of society..Why do we need them? I cant think of a reasonable argument to support there existence however they are part of the fabric & therefore are hard to get rid of - banning shotguns would be bloody hard if not impossible - they are far too ingrained but it may happen someday.. Whats needed is better control & lets be honest, shocking as this incident is (it is really terrible) its pretty isolated..

ps good spot eddy I had forgotten about the like of clays & biathlon..

[i]Deaths caused by cars are ACCIDENTS[/i]

So you really think 3000 people a year in the UK are killed because of a series of unfortunate events?

Dear me, wake up. The vast majority of these people are killed through misadventure, people being cocks.

Just like people driving around with shotguns. If I wanted to kill lots of people I would not use a shotgun, I'd use a car. A car can be a far more dangerous weapon than a shotgun. As the statistics prove. Banning guns would do **** all. This chap would just use a car or a lorry instead.

I could kill more people with a bottle of coca cola than this guy killed with a shotgun, BAN COCA COLA!!!!

I can't see any "tighten the gun laws" knee-jerk reaction on the news anywhere.

Is this "lets not have a knee-jerk reaction" just the usual knee-jerk reaction when people expect a knee-jerk reaction ?

**** me, shotguns in biathlons! Whatever next! 😆

Samuri, you're being an argumentative tw*t (if you don't mind me saying).

Whether you are pro or anti cars (or guns), you can't ignore the fact the guns are designed to kill or maim and don't perform any other useful function (apart from giving a hard-on to some sad bast*rds). 😆

Deaths caused by cars are ACCIDENTS

casual observation would suggest that they are the result of people prioritising their own convenience or entertainment over others' safety 🙁

I could kill more people with a bottle of coca cola than this guy killed with a shotgun

What size of Coca Cola bottle would that be? 500cl, 1 litre or 2 litre?

Would the bottle be glass or plastic?

Given that a shotgun blast can kill with one discharge at up to 50 metres, how many blows with a Coca Cola bottle does it take to kill a person fifty metres away?

Can you do it with one blow out of a car window?

Or are you just a silly person?

Eldridge again thats wide of the mark - lethal range of a shotgun is so dependent on many factors..Type of cartridge you are using, the choke on the barrel, the weather, altitude & lastly what you are actually aiming at..Get your facts in order & stop writing headlines for the Mail!

the result of people prioritising their own convenience or entertainment over others' safety

Much as we'd all like to think that road deaths and injuries are caused by people on their mobiles or tuning their radios, harsh facts indicate that most are just ACCIDENTS - simple errors and misjudgements which have consequences out of all proportion to their origins

epicyclo - Member

"The big problem with gun laws are that criminals and nutters do not obey them, and never will. Gun laws are bandaid legislation."

Reducing the number of guns in circulation and making them harder to obtain is pretty likely to help, don't you think? Criminals might not be deterred but it's still harder to get your hands on a gun and ammo than it would be without legislation, and also easier to obtain prosecutions (find a legal gun in a house- do nothing. Find an illegal gun in a house- prosecute criminal)

I mean, I would like to agree with your argument in a lot of ways, I deeply dislike laws that penalise the many for the actions of the few but I don't think you can argue that there's no benefit or that it only punishes the law abiding. Deterrant might not work (it's rarely effective) but the practicality of the sitution does IMO.

And again,

"If I wanted to kill lots of people I would not use a shotgun, I'd use a car. "

Actually, you're spot on tbh. Remember the glasgow airport "bombing"? All that fannying around putting gas cans into a Jeep, and all they had to do was drive down Sauchiehall Street at 40mph on a friday night. Statistically that Cherokee was less deadly than the average.

wide of the mark - lethal range of a shotgun is so dependent on many factors

for example

altitude

Yes - and so is the lethality of a Coke bottle. The explosive power of a 2 litre Coke bottle on the top of Everest is so much more devastating than at sea level! LOL

Eldridge go look it up & learn something - it seems you dont know an awful lot about the subject you are talking about..

go look it up & learn something

I'm always willing to learn. Recommend me some authorities which prove that the 100% lethal range of a standard 12 gauge shotgun is more than 50 metres

For full-size humans, of course, Not for specially bred, very slow flying, easy-for-aristoctratic-twits-to-hit game birds!

**** me, shotguns in biathlons! Whatever next

Powerslides.

its not the Mail he's writing for, its The Mirror

the Toffs chip gives it away.

Guns don't kill people, rappers do...

Was one of the victims

shot to death outside Hyper-Value?

Guns are tools. They can be misused like any other tool. It's the fault of the (ab)user, not the tool itself.

Got to love the people who think it's a tory thing - clearly you've never actually lived in the countryside where IME it's a very broad spectrum of people who own shotguns.

You might have a point with rifles, for which you need proof that you have somewhere to use it, which often means owning land/paying to go stalking lots.

And finally, what are you gonna do when theres a zombie apocalypse and there aren't any guns? 😆

**** me, shotguns in biathlons! Whatever next!

[i]Whether you are pro or anti cars (or guns), you can't ignore the fact the guns are designed to kill or maim and don't perform any other useful function (apart from giving a hard-on to some sad bast*rds). [/i]

As has been stated, guns don't kill people, people do. Lots of far more commonly available things can be a lethal weapon and I'm being argumentative to allow people to see that going on a killing spree is the dangerous thing here, not what tool is used.

After Hungerford, automatic and semi-automatic rifles were banned, and since then we've had no mass killing with automatic or semi-automatic rifles.

Wrong. Yesterday's shootings were done with a shotgun and a "Semi automatic hunting rifle" according to the paper in front of me.

Semi automatic rifles weren't banned were they?

Reducing the number of guns in circulation and making them harder to obtain is pretty likely to help, don't you think?

not really. seeing as pistols are still the weapon of choice here in london gangsterland. (if you believe what you read in the papers) they are from europe and are smuggled in.
all weapons on a firearms certificate are named and numbered so when pistols were banned all would have been handed in or sold abroad with an export license. all pistols in circulation today have probably never been legally held in this country.

making firearms harder to obtain isn't going to stop a nutter determined to source a weapon by any means and kill people.

F wits here today.
1. Cars kill more than guns. Some dimwit above said car deaths were accidents. Crap. No such thing. They were caused by inattention or stupid driving. Lets ban Citreon Saxo's. Around here they have killed more than guns.
2. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its wrong. I hate haedphone wearers on bikes, people who come to the countryside and then want facilities and those who speed in cars. Absolutely loath them and wish that the last bunch would all drive into trees. But apparently thats unreasonable.
Nope, gun control in the Uk has solved nothing apart from prove the fact that politicians are liars. Note that they haven't banned pistol shooting in the olympics yet our own shooters have to go abroad to practice.
Sad when something happens but who asks for the banning of horse's when some kids breaks their neck. better still ban those silly trampolines.
All calls to ban guns are by those who want an easy way of increasing their profile or know no better.

everything is going to get banned, guns so you cant shoot people. cars so you cant run somebody over, knifes to stab people .... if somebody is so determined to kill somebody they are going to do it,

i dont think that guns need to be banned as people like farmers need them, i do understand the goverment trying to make the law a little tighter but i dont think that guns will ever be unaccesable to someone tahts determined to kill someone

Northwind - Member
...Reducing the number of guns in circulation and making them harder to obtain is pretty likely to help, don't you think?

In case you haven't noticed there is already gun control in this country. Criminals still get their guns because they don't care what the law says.

The result of gun laws is that criminals and nutters have guns, and law abiding people do not. I'd prefer to see that equation reversed.

BTW I do not see much need for a gun in a UK urban environment.

Regardless of anything previously said, cars kill more people than guns. Anyone wanting to save lives would save more lives by banning cars than by banning guns.

I'm forwarding this thread to the police as list of people who should never be given a FAC 🙂

I'd prefer to see that equation reversed.

have lived in communities where there were guns in almost every household and yet there was no gun crime. It's nothing to do with the gun, and everything to do with the person with the gun.

+1 for this.

Mentally unhinged / people pushed to the edge / criminals will always find a way to carry out their plans.

[i]I'm forwarding this thread to the police as list of people who should never be given a FAC[/i]

[url] http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/FAC/facfaq.htm [/url]

I don't want one, they sound awful.

I'm not trying to start an argument as so many do on here, but can you prove this as a quick google would say to me it is perhaps slightly more over there over a long time period and a far greater population.

Yeah, the tendency to shoot one's school mates in the us is way out of proportion to their population compared to pretty much any other country.

Lists of the worst ones here :
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school-related_attacks

This bloke had a shotgun licence didn't he?

It would be interesting to know what his reason for owning one was on his application. Maybe he did a bit of pest control on the side or was it for recreation?

I can't see the controls changing that much after this legislatively but it will have given those that distribute the licences a gentle jolt to make sure they are thorough in their process following which can never be a bad thing. This bloke sounds like he was acting pretty "normal" up until the last 48hrs so I doubt it would make much difference in this case.

[i]This bloke sounds like he was acting pretty "normal" up until the last 48hrs so I doubt it would make much difference in this case. [/i]

According to the bbc he'd had a license for 20 years. Recreational would be my guess. Not uncommon. Be a good boy, have no criminal record, the police come round once a year to check you're storing the guns and ammo in the correct manner.

Bet there's *at least* one person on here with a license for both a shotgun and a rifle.

Funny, no one's mentioned knives yet, so far as I can see. Or hands. Both tools, both weapons, just like guns.

And to those who think landowners are rich and tory voters and therefore a valid target for your prejudices, my dad is neither, so go **** yourselves.

Personally, I think the fact that you want to own a gun, should by that very token exclude you from having one.

Years ago, when a young impressionable lad, I did a week's work experience with the Royal Artillery.

During that time I got to fire an impressive range of weapons from the British Army's arsenal of the day:

FN SLR
Stirling SMG
GPMG
Bren gun

Being a thoughtful lad, the feelings I experienced using these weapons (especially the Stirling SMG, like a kind of deadly hosepipe) and the gleeful look on some of my colleagues faces, put me off guns for life.

Education of men in the destructive potential of weapons of all kinds, together with increased emotional literacy and awareness of ones options when life seems hopeless seems far more likely to result in a reduction in these sorts of very rare but tragic events.

One more thing - the context in which we are making our comments here is tragic and our position is privileged in the light of the seemingly random nature of some of Bird's actions. Deep sympathy to all those involved.

I went to a gun club 20 odd years ago. I expected it to be a sport of precision and concentration. I was pretty appalled to find that the members were a bunch of fantasists dreaming of being John Wayne or Clint, add in the well stocked bar which was busy throughout the night, it was a pretty scary experience. I thought at the time that it would not take much to push any of them over the edge to make use of their weapons in violence, their spouses must have dreaded the results of any argument.
It was that experience that leads me to support any legislation to further restrict access to firearms of any nature, statistics can be made to support any argument and are pretty pointless.