When my son was punched in the mouth at random (mistaken identity it seems) I took him to hospital and he had 11 stitches in his lips. Response police were in A&E on another matter and got involved with us. Subsequently someone came round to take photos of his face (after the stitches were removed and the swelling had subsided). They refused to take the photos I had taken in A&E.
The other lad had a lecture by the local sergeant as to how it was not ok to go round hitting people in the mouth.
When I spoke to the local station the copper said "Well he only had a fat lip"
"He had 11 stitches in his lips" I said.
"Oh, if we'd known that the outcome might have been different"
Yeah, let the authorities sort it out.
Speak softly and carry a big stick.
Sometimes you feel at your wits end when you are at the receiving end of abuse, vandalism and being provoked, its bad enough when it happens to you but if it happens to your children or loved ones, so I can seee why people snap and tackle things themselves, as I have, I did all the correct things leading up to this and after by keeping a diary and informing the community police etc etc.
Ton you must have a background or upbringing that leads you tackle things head on and its worked for you and understand where your coming from, TJ I hope you never have to tackle any issues like being bullied or targeted by scumbags or any of you family, it can change your behaviour.
Flipping heckler - I have been in that situation - me and my loved ones threatened and physically attacked. I had no need to resort to hitting anyone. I am better than that.
and how did you sort it jesus?
What do you mean by better than that, I am not saying violence resolves anything, in fact it can escalate matters, but if your picked on and bullied, sometimes people react on the spur of the moment, you obviously like to have the moral high ground as you like to pontificate, but I doubt your better than us.
TandemJeremy
If we take your argument to the extreme and ordered the police to be better than the criminals, what do you think would happen. As I said the circumstances determine the course of action!
Your blind adherence and vehemence that there is never a reason for violence to be necessary is simply delusional.
However since I'm a fair minded person. Tell us a bit more about you and your family being attacked and how you handled it.
This thread seems to becoming to be a stand off between Ton & TJ! People are calling Ton a thug, but where's the evidence that he's been the instigator? (I'm not siding with Ton, we've never met) At the same time, TJ probably knows, that I know, that violence is the final option, & it sometimes is the only option. I see it not every day in the prison service, but regularly. Sometimes the bully only knows one way.
I really don't recognise the Ton that TJ is abusing here and wish that TJ would wind his neck in. He's being extremely unpleasant.
I haven't read all the posts but TJ is coming across as nasty tonight
I haven't read everything here but I'll add some facts.
I have 3 kids and I really feel for you - it's a horrible thing for you all to go through.
Now, you need to be very careful here. You need to realise that these people don't give a monkeys about the police or the justice system. More than likely they will know how to play the system. You more than likely don't.
I have a friend who as part of his job spends a lot of time in court. There are people who don't give a crap about anyone but themselves. They look at a court visit as a slap on the wrist, couldn't care less and are back out on the street usually the same day. Cautions are nothing to them. They end up in and out of courts for the rest of their days and it's just normal to them.
You on the other hand (I'm assuming here) are a law abiding citizen, have a job, care and provide for your family etc.
If you decide to go in guns blazing and 'sort it out yourself' then these people will put all the blame on you, milk it for all its worth and you'll be the one standing in court.
Now, because you don't know the system and are not in the system the courts will come down on you like a ton of bricks - it's not a pleasant place to be - your life will be hell, emotionally you will be scared, nervous, worried etc. Who knows what the outcome would be but you can be sure if your employer gets a sniff of it they will not be happy. You could lose your job, gain a criminal record and your life has changed for ever...
I'm not sure of the best way to deal with it? But I'd start at pestering the police until you get a result you're happy with. If you keep complaining to them then they'll have to deal with it at some point.
As tempting as it may be to get a pick handle and 'get medevial on yo ass' don't. It's not worth it.
i will leave the people who have met and ridden with me to decide if i am a thug.
and there are many. 8)
A stern telling off is like water off a ducks back to these people they can't communicate in a civil way and can't comprehend the point you are trying to make, it is like talking to someone who does not speak the same language so talking to them will not have any effect. To get the correct outcome for yourself you need to deal with them in ways they understand and unfortunately this may mean resorting to violence in some cases. Personally I think revenge is a dish served very cold. Possibly with a piece of drain pipe and barbed wire.
Where do you guys live, just out of interest? I just don't meet the kind of people you guys seem to be surrounded by.
I have two young kids, who are now approaching the age when bullying can be an issue. I can't give iDave any first hand advice, because I've not been in a similar position.
However, I do have some experience of dealing with 'problem people' of similar persuasion to those that iDave has described. To pop round and visit violence upon these people is a tempting solution, but the consequences can be a lot worse than you ever imagined.
A quite word can easily lead to a punch up. Even if you win, you won't know whether retaliation is just around the corner - and that retaliation could well seriously injure or even kill you.
Sometimes the only way to deal with these people if every other avenue is closed is to put the fear of God into them. To frighten them so much that even thinking about retaliation brings them out in a cold sweat.
But how many of us are capable of doing that?
Maybe action dan could help out; he seems to have some good ideas on how to deal with people with a slightly different moral compass to the rest of us, although I doubt this approach would meet with TandemJeremy's approval.
I hope you get it sorted soon iDave; it must be a horrible situation to be in.
You look too cuddly to be a thug Ton!
EDIT!! NO I DO NOT WANT A ****IN CUDDLE!!
TJ you are getting on my tits. "I am better than that" you smug ****er.
Being 'civilised' works fine when everyone else is civilised. But when certain people refuse to abide by the ubiquitous 'social contract' that is the core of civilisation, and only abide by the law of the jungle, it does not work with them.
Anyway, you think that threatening consequences is unethical - what then in your highly esteemed (by yourself) opinion is the rule of law concurrent with any civilisation? If you commit a crime you are liable to be punished.
By the police or by a righteously angry father has little difference ethically.
SHUT UP TJ.
I'll give an example.
Flatmate attacked me - hit me about 4 times before I managed to pin his arms to his sides and pin him to the wall using my weight. I held him there until he calmed down. I only held him. I did not hit him. I then had him prosecuted for assault.
In a nightclub I saw a man attack a woman. I pulled him away and he swung at me. Between me and a pal who was there we put him on the floor ( swept his feet away) and held him there until the bouncers came. Again I did not hit or attempt to hit him.
Saw a road rage incident escalate into two men punching each other. Busy urban street. I crossed the road shouting at them and separated them and called for others to assist me. Again all I did was restrain them.
In all three incidents it would have been easy and in the eyes of many justified to have hit the person or to have walked away from it. Instead I intervened but in a non violent way - restraining the violent person without hitting them.
It does help that I did a lot of Judo as a kid and that I am trained ( to a fairly low level) in control and restraint. It also helps that I firmly believe in non violence.
Tehre are numerous other instances where people have attempted to provoke me into a confrontation and I did not get invlved.
I am an English guy with a lisp and pretty academic. I went to a local school in Glasgow in the 70s. it was pretty tough at times but I learnt non confrontational ways of dealing with violent or potentially violent situations. ( but without kowtowing or giving in to them) I ended up with the respect of the bullies by the time I was 14 or 15 and actually helped to stop them being bullies. One of them contacted me thru the net just a few weeks ago.
By the way TJ I actually called you a smug reknaw in reverse but the sit turned it into ****. Hope my feelings are now suitably expressed.
Two reasons why I am so hard on Ton. He continually tries to bully me on here as others have seen and noted and he has bragged about being violent.
TJ, that's three examples.
You are such a hero and an example to us all...
NOW GO AWAY!!!
Fair enough tandem jeremy restraint works on one person, but if there are more than one what then?
The police must use violence to inforce the law by involving them you are a party to the violence they employ.
Why exactly did your flat mate hit you?
i will leave the people who have met and ridden with me to decide if i am a thug.
and there are many.
All too typical tactics from you tonight again ton.
When I wind you up about threatening people and being a bit heavy handed, you do the "hands-in-the-air-Who...Me?" thing. This evening when it's pointed out that violence isn't the answer, you do the whole "Ah, you don't have kids TeeJ, how would YOU understand"...which is a pile of steaming horseshit and you know it. You've constantly wound him up to the point that he's bitten (tut tut TeeJ....you should know better mate) and now you've got some support from the "You don't have kids" brigade, you're skulking away quietly to view the spoils of your trolling. You even have the cheek to stick a smiley on there.
So, are you complaining to the mods ton? I would if I'd had that abuse from TeeJ.
Or are you going to go around and beat him up or at least, y'know, have a word?
How are things at home these days big fella? Things getting on top of you again?
Oh, and what ZedsDead said +1
Unless you're tough and been through the system like our ton, it's best not to mess with thugs - they'll never have any problem stooping lower than you.
Unfortunately I cannot remember the the name of the mother and disabled daughter who tragically took their own lives after being bullied and threatened for years. They kept a diary, informed the police did what seemed to be everything they could to stop it and it didn't. This is just one case and one case too many showing that doing the "civil" thing does not work. Communicate on a level these thugs understand.
Thank you deadly - at least one person can see thru ton.
TandemJeremy - Member
I'll give an example.Flatmate attacked me
I'm with the flatmate tonight...
dd, simply saying, the way i would handle it is to confront the parents of the offending child.
it worked for me. simple.
see that Julian. Nae worries - I can seee I have really annoyed people on here tonight. However I will never accept advocating violence as an answer. It just perpetuates the culture of violence.
Please note Ton is not denying he has done time for violence and has used violence to get his own way.
I know TJ pretty well - like to think of him as a good mate for life i hope. I can see his point of view and see where he is coming from and i think in real life he wouldn't be so 'vocal'.
However, i am more of the mind to take Ton's approach to the problem. He didn't say he would actually beat someone, but to warn them instead.
This works.
I went to a pretty rough boarding school and know deep down that punching the shit out of someone is the worst way to deal with a problem. The threat of it is a good substitute.
No kids yet for me but i reckon i would be on the Ton school of thought but until i have the experience of life TJ and Ton have then i can't really comment with any authority.
To stick up for Teej- he is the man in the pub you can have an argument with all night but he will have your back if stuff went wrong.
Both sides have validity.
teej is right.
i did time for wounding in my teens.
and if someone attacked my kids, i would do time again.....with a clear conscience and at ease to what i had done.
i have friends in the courts and friends in the kind of 'system' these people have never come across in their tragic lives.
a mother who is goading her daughter to get stuck in a bit more is not likely to respond to a quiet chat, or a slapping.
there are other ways. any violence on my part and the revenge won't be taken against me. i prefer to dump an apocalypse on their heads which they'll never have experienced before. although i hope it won't come to it as i'm a bit busy these days.
tomorrow will reveal whether it's going to go away, but i'll also be informing plod of the new threats.
simply saying
ton, you're saying very little "simply" mate. You know that though don't you? 🙂
I'm just thankful I'm out of reach...I'd be scared if I was within biking distance of a big scary guy like you.
8)
🙂
dd, come home for aweek in the summer to visit family...... 😆
we can meet up for a ride 8)
kaesae - Member
Fair enough tandem jeremy restraint works on one person, but if there are more than one what then?The police must use violence to inforce the law by involving them you are a party to the violence they employ.
Why exactly did your flat mate hit you?
Probably bored him to within an inch of his life, as he would not shut the f%$k up..
It's the 'net, and for most of us, a hypothetical problem. Violence, as TJ says is not the answer, and anyone who thinks it is could do worse than spend a day or so in Intensive Care watching people weeping over the latest hero or his victim..
Any of you seen the results of a proper beating?
The shoe prints on faces?
The defence wounds on forearms?
The head swollen up to the size of a melon?
Any of you had to tell Mum/wife/children that he's not going to wake up?
Or worse, that he's woken up and that drooling moaning thing will need 24 hour care for the rest of his 'life'?
That's what I do.
Where's home then?
we can meet up for a ride
The guy who does my circuit training is a martial arts instructor. I'll see how much he charges 🙂
Now, TeeJ and ton...say sorry, shake hands and move on. You're only fuelling everyone else's enjoyment by fighting?
iDave - sorry for hijacking your thread.
to go back a bit - you sound very level headed to me. What my father did when I was being bullied was to ensure I had the physical and mental attributes to deal with it. I learnt self defence - not fighting and I learnt to walk away with my head held high and not to respond to provocation. ( I should remember that on here sometimes 🙂 )
This was key to my way of dealing with teh bullies. Refuse to play their game, refuse to let it get to me and eventually I gained their respect and actually helped them stop being bullies.
I never once hit one of them.
TandemJeremy
I think in the situations you desribed you used the right course of action. In those situations violence wouldn't have helped at all, I do disagree that violence should never be an opition though. As we all find ourselves in situations where it is necessary from time to time.
Grappling and restraint might work on one individual but more than one and you'll be in real trouble.
Everything that has been said about dealing with situations is valid! all the name calling and provocation is bullsh1t. We don't have to agree, these threads could be about analyzing other perspectives and gaining a better grasp of the situation.
That said I'm all for chucking sh1t if everyone else is?
drooling moaning thing
Sounds like the offspring of a ton-TJ union 😯
Seriously though, you speak the truth crikey.
You might find this article of interest:
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/feb/07/youth-crime-justice-cps ]Me vs the Kids[/url]
It gives some insight into how the system worked in one particular case. Given some of the comments above, it's interesting to see the problems the victim encountered despite playing things by the book. Had he taken the law into his own hands, it seems pretty clear the outcome would have been much worse.
[i][The guy who does my circuit training is a martial arts instructor. I'll see how much he charges[/i]
Your point being? (read my earlier thread)
Your point being? (read my earlier thread)
Well, I was only (jokingly) letting ton know, I'd be able to look after myself if he got shirty when we "met" for a chat 🙂
Ok TJ, now you have managed a rational and non-abusive post your point of view becomes clearer. I myself was bullied as a child (the details are irrelevant) and I do not advocate violence. But it does have its uses.
My son at age 11 was bullied by two kids in his year; one day they both started on him in the toilets and he had them both up against the wall by their throats. No violence, just letting them know he wouldn't put up with any more crap. They've been mates ever since.
Last year I broke up a fight between two blood-soaked teenagers (both pissed) because my 6 year old daughter and her friends were about to come out of their Rainbows club and I didn't want them witnessing it. Got between them and fended off blows meant for each other but stopped it without further violence.
So I do see where your thinking lies.
When its your kids though and they're innocent it's different, and that's why they have a Man as a Father - evolutionary necessity.
Guys
My daughter was picked on by a scrote on her way back from school, I am no hero but saw the red flash went to his home and his daddy did not want to come out to play.
His dad had to drive past my house at times io eventually caughjt up with him, his son would not do any thing like bully.
Daughter showed to him still with gravel scratches to her face and side.
Shock he said he would deal with it.Fair play he came to our house with his son and apologised for the injuries caused Son not Father.
He then tried to laugh it of children would be children.Told to F--- o=f
Touch my daughter and do damage you die.
TJ gro up family especially offspring people would die for and this now means Grandkids.
You are a **** children need to be protected until thier teens.
Bass
crikey, what you describe is what i want to prevent happening.
my daughter stood up for someone else, then had to stand up for herself.
now i need to stand up for her, which I will do.
if there is any escalation tomorrow the hounds will be let loose but there will be no violence from my side, just mayhem.
on the self defence thing, i'll ask the scrotums to hold off for a few months while she gets some training?
crikey
I agree! but still it is better the scum bag is in hospital than you or yours?
Given a choce of do nothing when you know someone intends your loved ones harm and hoping the police will sort it out? or doing what ever is necessary.
I would always be willing to do what ever is needed regardless of what it costs me in temrs of consiquences.
That said, you sound like you have a hard job to do, keep your chin up!
being a dad does make you sometimes see the red mist .
4 years ago on the morning I was setting off to drive to italy with a few mates for a cycling hol .
02.00 knock on the door so grogily go down to answer 2 plod there .
are you XXXs dad , fearing the worst i say yes we have had a phone call from her that she is being held against her will in a flat by an asian boy .
we have been round there but no one answered the door .
I says where is this flat , They say they cant tell me but if XXX gets in touch to let them know .
you can probably imagine how I am feeling now .
plod goes off .
I start making calls to her mates and eventually one that knows the guy in question and where he lives .
by now it is 06.00 so I go in my van round to this address and start banging on the door to no avail . this place is like a fortress with roller shutters on the doors and windows .
anyways an asian guy was coming down the street and he says hey the curtains up there moved so there must be some one in , by this time all rational thought has gone , My daughter is in there and I want her back .
So outside is this black toyota all shiny I go back to my van to see what weapons I have normally lots of tools but cos Iam going away it is empty except for my Kneekicker ( I am a carpet fitter )
so I grabs this and winds out the spikes to max .
goes back and stands next to this black shiny car and shouts up to the window " if XXX is not out of there in 30 second then I start dismantleing this car .
in 20 seconds the roller shutter starts to go up and he pushes her out in tears and quickly shuts the door .
at this time it was probably for me the best thing he could do because I would have killed him in the most painfull way possible because of the red mist and the thought he had my Girl , This was the most angry I have ever been in my life and I know I would have not stopped hitting him till he was dead , that is what it is like to be a dad with one of yours in danger .
Any of you seen the results of a proper beating?
Wot Crikey said +++++++.
Very hard to turn back the clock once you are in ICU.
Step back, calm down.
iDave
tai boxing, a lot of fun and very good range of weapons.
it's also a good way to keep fit, once a week and it shouldn't cost too much.
and yes it takes time to learn but once you do, no matter what the situation you will be more likely to come out on top.
genghispod
Thank you.
I do not accept that bullies should be allowed to be unchallenged and IMO Ton is a bully - hence I will challenge him.
you sassenachs are sooooo civilised 😀
I had the fortune of growing up in Glasgow.
A few lads used to bully a kid in my registration class quite badly. We must have been about 14 at the time.
The kid's dad and his fatty mate waited at the school gates one day and kicked the utter shit out of 5 of us walking home from school together - only two of the group actually bullied the boy. I had my nose broken by a fist and a cracked elbow from a golf club wielded by a 40 year old skin head for no reason at all 😀
We all knew who did it, and why. None of us fancied another beating so we told our parents we got into a fight with some other lads.
I once started a rather harmless rumour at school that a lad was gay and I spotted him ****ing our maths teacher off in the toilets.
About 2 days later, his alcoholic father knocked on my front door, politely asked my mother if I was around, and then, with my mother standing beside me at the door, dragged me outside and smacked me clean in the face. I was 16.
If you don't mind the risk of a criminal record (which you're running no matter who any threat or violent attack is aimed at), you might as well just punch the silly cow that beat up your daughter.
<moderated>
If it was me, I probably wouldn't take the violence route though.
Persistent threatening phone calls at 3am and sitting with your car headlights on the house just after doing it generally gives them the shitters and the cops are pretty powerless (unless you call from your mobile doh!)
trout
Sounds pretty horrific!
<moderated>
Jesus Christ.
What a great thread, violence, agression,bullying,swearing,and no real answers to the original question,but a whole similar situation it apears.
I dont agree with volence but could definately batter to destruction TJ,s keyboard tonight.
Jeezo trout - that sounds nasty indeed. Hope she was OK.
Peterfile - I grew up in glasgow as well.
Seriously fellas, I see things that I'd rather not have seen, things that really get through 22 years of experience.
I can sit all night and talk about the horror stories, but the point is that violence isn't an easily measured thing, it doesn't come in discrete packages, it doesn't have an off switch or a 'you've gone a bit far' monitor.
You can kill or seriously injure people, or get killed or seriously injured yourself, very, very easily.
Take it easy, step back a bit, think of tomorrow, think of the consequences...
i could show her some krav maga but don't want her in youth court for assault. for now i've told her to avoid and run.
<moderated>
Jesus Christ.
+1
Haven't heard one like that in a loooong time...clever.
idave - it sounds as though you've got this pretty much sorted, but good luck anyway. Again, to all you keyboard warriors, it's one thing fantasising about commiting acts of violence, but quite another when you actually have to face it. Yes, sometimes it's inevitable, but in my not inconsiderable experience, there are far better ways to resolve conflict. And without wanting to embarrass tj, I suspect with his background working in health, he's seen more violence and aggression than most of you put together.
And peterfile, you really might want to rethink that rape comment...
Kaesae It was
and the good news was both me and my girl both came out the other side OK with no lasting damage.
peterfile - Member
you sassenachs are sooooo civilisedI had the fortune of growing up in Glasgow.
I once started a rather harmless rumour at school that a lad was gay and I spotted him ****ing our maths teacher off in the toilets.
About 2 days later, his alcoholic father knocked on my front door, politely asked my mother if I was around, and then, with my mother standing beside me at the door, dragged me outside and smacked me clean in the face. I was 16.
Posted 2 minutes ago # Report-Post
That must be the saddest most stupid comment ever,you could have ruined the teachers career,his life and his relationship with who ever,pity the dag didnt bend you over and.................,now that would be legal now at 16.
Just going to add this in.
There are of course times when you are caught in a situation where violence may be the only option to get you out of a trapped corner so to speak.
However, going round to sort someone out is very different. Of course it may be tempting but the point is that this is pre-meditated. The courts take a very dim view of this and your in an even worse situation.
Try your best to keep a level head, very easy for me to say here but it is in your best interest.
As a mate used to say - always try to run away. If you can't run away then try to talk your way out of it. If you can't talk your way out of it then hit them as hard as you can.... then run away.
I really do hope you get this sorted as soon as possible and back to your normal life.
heh! rape comment was an [b]analogy[/b], lighten up. you're all banging on about beating people senseless, jeez.
iDave, no advice mate but as a dad with two little ones I really hope you get this sorted out asap. Makes me sick with worry the though of this happening to my two.
All the best mate.
"heh! rape comment was an analogy, lighten up. you're all banging on about beating people senseless, jeez."
I for one have not advocated beating anyone senseless. And that's a piss poor 'analogy' - sorry for not 'lightening up', but when someone you love gets raped or abused, you might struggle to see the funny side. ****.
For
your info born in Scotland brought up in edinburgh had to run to the polis at 9 years because drunken old man fighting with brother.
now live in England and do not have any hang ups apart from someone like TJ.As I can assure you have seen and know doubt will see many more sad schenes before I retire my god willing.
Still stand bye the fact that my family will not be attacked whilst I can draw breath.
Can not go into any real detail of my job as it covers England and Wales for the gov.uk
[i]heh! rape comment was an analogy[/i]
Analogy fail.
I'm short and can't fight like some. If, however, somebody, anybody threatened my family I'd make them suffer pain. To Hell with the consequences, a man must have priorities in life.
Violence isn't the best way, but like democracy it sometimes leaves no other option.
[b]TJ, go to bed, you opinionated, ignorant, attention-whoring and publicity-seeking keister[/b]
To Hell with the consequences
That's kinda dumb. You can't protect your family from a prison cell. There are ways and means, which it seems I may have to investigate further.
iDave, to me it looks like you have your head screwed on. With your attitude I reckon you'll get this sorted out and I wish you and your family all the best. It's a horrible thing to have to go through but you will come out the other side and you can get back to the normality of your life.
I'm glad there are people out there like you who care and look after their family.
Good luck.
And for what it's worth, I've spoken with TJ a few times and to me he seems like a genuinely decent and nice bloke. A charecter for sure, but a really good one.
There is a justifiable threshold for self-defence and the defence of others. But that rarely accounts for what ends up in A+E.
Stop and count to ten.
I'm with iDave in trying to avoid a direct face-to-face. I don't have kids, not even in a relationship at the mo', [i]but[/i] I can very, very easily empathise with those who do. I can very easily see the path of escalation, they almost certainly know your location, so even a bit of a slanging match could easily result in damage to property late at night; a very recent example in the news of someone dying in a house fire after two little scumbags chucked a firework through a letterbox after a confrontation due to their bullying the woman's son. These people are not very bright, but they [i]are[/i] smart, a distinction that is lost on some, the posession of 'street smarts'. They might not be able to count higher than ten without taking their shoes and socks off, and the webbing might still make it difficult for them, but they can still put two and two together and draw an obvious conclusion. If I told off some oik for riding on the path, and next morning my car had been done over I'd know [i]exactly[/i] who to look for, but equally, he'd know it was me retaliating. Any reprisals are gonna have to be devious and subtle, but very effective. I truly wish you luck, my reaction would be to petrol bomb their cars, but the above cautions obviously apply. Best wishes to you and yours, I hope these vermin inherit an entire universe of pain.
I don't like violence or confrontation but... my dad told me bullies only know one thing. One day the "cock" of the school pushes me over a desk because he thought we were laughing at him, i promptly floored him. Never bothered me again. In the real world violence doesn't solve anything. At school however...
Time for bed everyone...