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Such a shame - there were some genuine issues in his speech that do need to be examined and addressed, but everyone is (rightly) focusing the monumentally stupid thing(s) that he said instead.
But on his valid points, I'd like to see him challenged on his voting record and his party's policies - I'm willing to bet a considerable amount of money that the guy is a sniveling hipocrite.
I've mentioned this on the Bond thread too, but I do think we need to stop replacing existing male roles with female ones, not because I have any objection to it myself, but because it just seems to give creedence to this notion that suddenly (white) males are being persecuted because Edward Woodward is now a black woman.
I don't know why anyone would object to the concept of "Toxic Masculinity" - particularly in a speech where he also laments the willingness of men to discuss their mental health.
As I said, guy's a **** witt.
Young, white, British males might well feel that they are now the focus of subliminal persecution
When you are accustomed to privilege equality feels like oppression.
but I do think we need to stop replacing existing male roles with female ones, not because I have any objection to it myself, but because it just seems to give creedence to this notion that suddenly (white) males are being persecuted because Edward Woodward is now a black woman.
But in a way we are then pandering to those who benefit from the status quo or have used monumental and misplaced indignation to block some moves towards equality. One could argue that this regendering of roles is also needed due to the dearth of strong roles for females, LGBT, people of colour in film and tv and an under representation of writers from these backgrounds. Tldr one has to change what’s there as not much new is coming through
I'm seriously thinking that the Tory MPs have a "**** Of The Day" Tombola to deflect attention away from what they are really up to.
Well said Spin
Maybe young white males are being encouraged to focus their grievances in every possible direction except for the very conditions that bring hardship to most people.
That is the populist way which is big in this country. Ignore the shit the government have caused by blaming others.
but I do think we need to stop replacing existing male roles with female ones, not because I have any objection to it myself, but because it just seems to give creedence to this notion that suddenly (white) males are being persecuted
I'm not sure this is a great argument. Isn't the same thing said about statues of Empire-era white men and their connections with (for instance) slavery or genocide. i.e. don't remove or question their relevance them for fear it gives voice to those who don't wish to know the actuality of history, and are more content with their own version of it, and are more than happy to commit to violence to defend it. If we are just slavishly trying still not to hurt the feelings of those who're perceiving that their privilege being eroded, don't we by default do that at the cost of not supporting those who're in need of a leg up?
When you are accustomed to privilege equality feels like oppression.
I doubt you could accuse a good percentage of white British teenage boys who turn to crime as being accustomed to many privilidges. Whiteys live in run down council tower blocks and are subject to crippling poverty too, you know....
I doubt you could accuse a good percentage of white British teenage boys who turn to crime as being accustomed to many privilidges
I was thinking about Tory MPs and all the others who bleat about being opressed because they are white males.
Maybe young white males are being encouraged to focus their grievances in every possible direction except for the very conditions that bring hardship to most people.
The Tory government must be shitting themselves in case the disadvantaged poor - of any colour, but especially traditionally Tory voting white people - finally realise why their situation has deteriorated.
Whiteys live in run down council tower blocks and are subject to crippling poverty too, you know….
I don't think anyone doesn't accept that there aren't differences in the "levels" of privilege that people experience or perceive, but the observed institutional racism of organisations like the Metropolitan Police for example, does not impact them in the same way that it impacts the same group of young men (poor and living in run-down housing) in the black community.
Seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what white privilege means, whether deliberate or not.
It means that your whiteness is never going to be the thing that holds you back in a white-dominated society. It's not saying all white people are 'privileged' ie wealthy/powerful/advantaged (although there is likely to be a correlation).
This is a privilege which is not available to non-white people in a white-dominated society. It's not saying every white person is racist all the time, or that every non-white person necessarily experiences constant oppression/unfairness.
It's really not that hard to understand if you are interested in actually listening rather than resorting to knee-jerk tabloid responses.
(I'm also not claiming to be an expert and I may not be 100% accurate but that's the gist of it as I understand it)
it just seems to give creedence to this notion that suddenly (white) males are being persecuted because Edward Woodward is now a black woman.
Good.
Because it's bullshit. It's bigotry, really. And we either challenge that or we sweep it under the carpet. Should Obama have been refused Presidency in case white men felt persecuted? Same character, different actor.
Ask yourself this: do you think there'd be the same reaction from the same people - hell, from yourself - if they rebooted the Vicar of Dibley Lenny Henry as the lead character? Reckon the bottom half of the Internet would light up the same way as when Whittaker was announced?
Do you think it should?
Whiteys live in run down council tower blocks and are subject to crippling poverty too, you know….
And again, no-one is disputing this. The difference you're missing is, they're highly unlikely to be in poverty because they are white.
There is not parity here. Until there is, your argument is bogus.
because they are white
Exactly, the 'because' being the critical word. Yes white men can have shit lives, white men commit suicide etc,. but the fact they are white and a man is still giving them an advantage in life which they clearly won't be feeling but won't know anything different.
I have really enjoyed watching Jodie Whittaker as Dr Who - and I really don’t believe the characters gender or indeed race, is a key characteristic.
I also agree with the current view that people do need to see people like ‘them’ to see additional possibilities for themselves.
It’s not the same for reasonably affluent white men - as fundamentally they are seen in most parts of society and culturally, there is still a subconscious view that people of importance, wealth, influence are overwhelmingly white and male.
Where this prevalence of white males becomes comes a little unstuck, is as people have previously said - when poverty enters the equation…
The real thing we need to do is to make sure that representation in the workplace, the media, politics actually reflects society - which as we know, it doesn’t.
Part of the above is - no surprise, obviously making sure in drama, there are great, strong characters that are ethnically diverse, of differing genders, different backgrounds etc. Characters that can become embedded over time to be as well-known as James Bond etc.
Where this is harder is making sure that we actually get some real equality of opportunity and change who people with power, influence, affluence are and indeed look like. There are so many vested interests and the majority of wealth tied up in maintaining that status quo and part of that is limiting who the people that appear in drama and other mass media are disproportionately white males.
None of this is in any way novel, but unless we address the real problem of inequality we won’t have any chance of real diversity of even dramatic characters.
Just in a little way I have been on the wrong end of this
As a bloke in nursing ( which was rare when I started) I was always noticed. Everyone knew my name. I could never hide at the back of the class or be mediocre. Unless I showed myself to be good I was seen as bad at the job. I got judged to a higher standard than my female colleagues and my mistakes were more noticed
Assumptions were also made about my motivations that were untrue
Now none of this was deliberate but it was just a consequence of being what was then a very small minority
Seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what white privilege means, whether deliberate or not.
It means that your whiteness is never going to be the thing that holds you back in a white-dominated society. It’s not saying all white people are ‘privileged’ ie wealthy/powerful/advantaged (although there is likely to be a correlation).
That’s my assessment also.
Whether true or not, the wider world will have ready (uncredited or second-hand) anecdotes of how non-white people are customarily given jobs (quotas) just because they are non-white (when the white person was more qualified or not even considered because they white), free luxury hotel accommodation, houses and more cash than they can spend. Simply for not being white. While (always white) veterans are forced to sleep rough in the streets and white OAPs freeze to death in winter. Why? Because they're not entitled to those brown/black benefits. The people who seem most keen/reliant on these anecdotes will often fiercely and unironically accuse others of having a ‘victim-mentality’
I have really enjoyed watching Jodie Whittaker as Dr Who – and I really don’t believe the characters gender or indeed race, is a key characteristic.
I think she's been let down by some weak scripts.
This is the problem with three-and-out Doctors though. The first series can be all over the place because they don't really know how to write for the 'new' character. Just as they're nailing it, there's a new one.
This is where Big Finish is absolutely killing the BBC. They've spent a lot more time with already-established characters.
Not sure why women can’t be positive role models for boys.
I agree, but the identity politics of the Left tends to demand that role models only apply within identity groups. For example, only women can be role models for women.
This Tory MP may be factually wrong but otoh the spirit of what he said may not be completely untrue; there is a trend right now to denigrate masculine virtues in fictional characters, to turn all men into pathetic jokes in the name of 'equality'. What do young men need? The Left believes they need to be made into women. Realistic?!
Seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what white privilege means, whether deliberate or not.
The misunderstanding is because 'white privilege' is nothing but a rhetorical turn built on air.
but the fact they are white and a man is still giving them an advantage in life
That's just metaphysics based on bad readings of statistics.
Let's deal with things we can actually put our hands on.
I agree, but the identity politics of the Left tends to demand that role models only apply within identity groups.
No it’s because disadvantaged groups have said that seeing role models who look or are like they are inspires them. But you probably knew that anyway.
they’re highly unlikely to be in poverty because they are white.
Who is poor in the UK simply because of race and race alone?
No it’s because disadvantaged groups have said that seeing role models who look or are like they are inspires them
Activists in the name of these groups have said that. These activists are doing identity politics, it doesn't mean what they say is true.
What do young men need? The Left believes they need to be made into women. Realistic?!
They need a way out of poverty and their communities rebuilt
Blaming 'the left' because Dr who is a woman really is a desperate attempt at deflecting from the real issues.
MPs like this tool & their apologists need to show some courage and just admit that austerity has been a disaster
it doesn’t mean what they say is true.
Doesn't mean it isn't, either.
I'm not sure that I can be bothered to engage with the rest of your nonsense. Do you want to point on the doll as to where the nasty minority touched you?
I agree, but the identity politics of the Left tends to demand that role models only apply within identity groups. For example, only women can be role models for women.
Err... it was a Tory MP linking lack of positive male role models and males committing crimes. It was a Tory MP complaining that women getting roles was depriving males of postive role models. I wouldn't describe him as "of the Left". You might I suppose.
It means that your whiteness is never going to be the thing that holds you back in a white-dominated society. It’s not saying all white people are ‘privileged’ ie wealthy/powerful/advantaged (although there is likely to be a correlation).
Poor white boys do significantly worse at school and are significantly less likely to achieve a university place than the poor of any other ethnicity (other than Roma/Gypsy I believe).
If you have programmes and interventions to aid to other ethnic groups/females in order to improve their outcomes, but not white boys then surely by definition it is their 'whiteness' and 'maleness' that is holding them back.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57558746
Or maybe they think they don't need to try as hard.
The Tory government must be shitting themselves in case the disadvantaged poor – of any colour, but especially traditionally Tory voting white people – finally realise why their situation has deteriorated.
I don't think they are - from what I read this morning its the fault of the French and our plucky government is doing everything it can.
Or maybe they think they don’t need to try as hard.
Have you considered that you are starting with the belief that racism is everywhere and then interpreting everything based upon that belief?
Has anyone even gone out on to
the streets andd asked the youth of Hulme, Sunderland, Dagenham Toxteth and Wishaw who they think the next Dr Who should be? I reckon their conversation has been about little else, lately.
I saw a clip of this yesterday and thought it must have been a joke. Utterly bizarre.
Have you considered that you are starting with the belief that racism is everywhere and then interpreting everything based upon that belief?
My point is that correlation does not (necessarily) equal causation.
You've read that headline and concluded that white kids are being held back because they're white. That might be true, it might not. You need to dig a bit deeper to find out why (and indeed that's exactly what they're doing) rather than jumping to conclusions that fit with your narrative. That's why said "maybe" in reply to your absolute, I've no idea why it's happing.
I posted a link showing that poor white boys are significantly less likely to go to university (and therefore escape poverty
Did you read the interview with the pupil further down where he said basically what I did, there's a feeling that they don't to bother because they'll just walk into a job anyway?
Unbelievable ignorance and bigotry. For shame.
Oh jog on. Two-week old account I see, who were you banned as last time?
I posted a link showing that poor white boys are significantly less likely to go to university (and therefore escape poverty with a well paying job) than those of almost any other ethnicity
And what is your assessment/conclusion? ie what did you do with that data?
I don’t think they are – from what I read this morning its the fault of the French and our plucky government is doing everything it can.
Or they are using that line to distract the people struggling as a result of all their other policies..........
I suppose it's time for this again.
Just to return to the original point of the thread briefly....
What these young lads need isn't a male Dr Who or Ghostbuster - it's real live positive male role models, through families, through childrens centres and youth groups, through schools and outreach programmes, through the Police and justice system. All those things that Tory austerity cut back or undermined, grinding them further down into the dust, leaving gaps that the voluntary sector struggles to fill.
So before this Tory git - and any of his apologists - open their mouths, they need to remember "Before You Complain - Have You Volunteered?"
Any kid who has Dr Who as role model need to have a word with themselves! 😉
It was rubbish in it's inception and it's rubbish now....the only saving grace is that the current one is easy on the eye whereas Tom Baker wasn't! 🙂
Tom Baker is a looker in his own way. It's all in the eyes.
Its is true that boys from poor backgrounds, including whites, typically have worse prospects than girls from similar backgrounds. And it is worth trying to identify the root cause and address it.
On the one hand we have a government that has imposed swingeing cuts on local authorities that have resulted in massive cut backs to youth services, closures of Sure Start centre, closure of libraries and even resulted in some schools having to sell of playgrounds and sports fields.
On the other hand Dr Who is a woman.
Growing up in the 60s watching it in black and white the Dr Who role model was a pompous old fool. That MP might have a point if he watched it back then.
If you think white males are persecuted try being black or Asian, trans or gay, female, disabled etc.
There is nothing about being white and male that holds you back in life.
Cougar
Did you read the interview with the pupil further down where he said basically what I did, there’s a feeling that they don’t to bother because they’ll just walk into a job anyway?
Yes I did, and no it did not say "basically what you said".
Read between the lines - he's not saying "i'm not going to bother doing my homework cos dad will get me a job at Deloitte or KPMG", quite the opposite, no matter how hard he works, those career paths are not for people "like him".