Capt. Kronos » I don't really do that kind of thing and don't see how a stranger would make it any easier. So long as I keep of suicide watch I think I am doing pretty well!
I used to feel that way many years ago and it cost me. With the right counsellor it's easier than you think, not to mention our ability to evade certain aspects of self that can remain hidden through familiarity, denial etc.
As for the suicide thing - sometimes the first sign is an attempt. Depending on how determined you are that could be that.
Try to talk with someone.
I don't want to sidetrack this thread, but I cannot resist commenting on the pressures to which Mr Overshoot has referred in his industry, and tjagain's assertion that this is poor management, no one is indispensible, and that "You are talking to someone who has had real 24/7 responsibility for peoples lives but I didn't get called on my days off or holidays":
On the face of it it seems obvious that NHS front line work etc. will be potentially far more critical/high stress and food manufacturing is 'trivial' compared with 'real 24/7 responsibility for peoples lives', but that is a rather dismissive attitude and reflects not only a lack of awareness of what life can be like for others (true of all of us and quite normal) but also a failure to try to imagine how things might be different for others (which is regrettable).
The NHS is a public sector funded organisation. It is so essential that in general its continuing existence (and the jobs of the people who work in it) is [i]relatively[/i] well assured. When medical decisions are made, I believe that there are clear established guidelines, rules and protocols. So although someone may have responsibility for a person's life, they almost invariably will know what they must do in a given set of circumstances.
Food manufacturing is probably a good example of how different the private sector can be. If you are the senior engineer for a food factory and something goes seriously wrong, there may be no established fix and no one else's expertise you can call on. Commercial/financial pressures in the sector can be extremely high, with no room for frequent breakdowns or shutdowns, which would either start causing the factory to be loss making, or will simply prompt the supermarket customer to go elsewhere.
Get it wrong in the NHS, and it's unlikely that the hospital would be closed and everyone lose their job. Get it wrong in the food industry, and factory closures with loss of jobs can and do happen. Moreover the nature of problems that someone in Mr Overshoot's position can face can vary immensely (akin to patients with completely new and unrecognisable illnesses with no established treatment protocol turning up every month). You don't even have to make a mistake for a food factory to close and everyone to lose their job - just bad luck or circumstances can be enough. Food used to cost something like a third of the average household income, and it's now much much less. The commercial and operational pressures to deliver food so cheaply are immense, and very competitive prices for the food we buy come at a cost to the people who work in the industry, both in terms of pressures and wages. That means there is often simply not enough money for the likes of Mr Overshoot to have a large enough team working for him so skilled, competent and reliable that he can confidently switch his phone off for two weeks while on holiday.
Bloody hell Slowster those last 2 paragraphs sum it up exactly!
We are often running with such little margin for error in stock that a plant downtime of 24hrs would probably mean the loss of a couple of major customers which would in turn mean closure unless those customers could be replaced, very unlikely in today’s market.
Your point about no one else to turn to is very true, I was recently asked to compile a list of equipment that was no longer supported and it even shocked me to the point where I was informed by one company that I am now the only person in the world who knows how to fully set up & program the coms system our weighers use as it was last produced in the 80’s.
I have had 3 colleagues retire early this year and all have said they just didn’t realise how much stress they/we were under until they stopped, every one of them said it’s so nice to go to sleep and not wake up in the small hours going over problems in your head.
I don’t disagree with anyone saying it seems like poor management but with the resources/budgets we have salaried staff are the only way we keep going overtime payment isn’t an option.
Given your understanding of it I guess you are working in a similar position
Any ideas?
Sleep more. Life is much easier if you get 7/8 hours every night.
Also don't think about work when you aren't there, flick the off switch as soon as you leave the office, don't turn it on till you walk back through the door.
Given your OP, it seems obvious you worry too much about work, stop that. And make sure you get the required sleep.
Also go to your doctors and get signed off with stress for a month if you can't sort this on your own/work aren't willing to help. Reset yourself. Work is exactly that, work, it's not your life.
Plus you also need to learn to train your bosses expectations! 😆
It wasn't in the NHS it was private sector and I had full 24 / 7 legal responsibility for the running of the home ie if anything happened at any time I would be called to account not just by my bosses but also the regulatory body and the courts. Get it wrong and I would be answereable in the criminal court. a business with a 2 million pound turnover.
However I had a good management structure in place thus was never called out. Once I had to stay in the building for 24 hours tho as there wasn't cover due to sickness. If I had not done this I would have been subject to professional and possibly criminal sanctions.
Working as Mr Overshoot does is only due to poor management. Its also illegal.
Edit: He is allowing his bosses to take the micky and also to break the law. What is needed is a proper " on call" system
what would happen if you were drunk? Out of phone range? Driving a car? In hospital?
Who are they going to call? Ghostbusters ?
If there is no - one else that is in any way available to fix something that's bust then there is no option.
All sit around and wait 14hrs for Fred at the plant manufacturers head office to turn up and see if he can remember doing a plant install in 1991 , but he is now 60 and his memory is failing so he's no good.
So you sit around as there is no-one else, product goes to waste, production ceases and stressed middle and upper management have a hissy fit when they find out.
Unfortunate reality in many workplaces , big and small.
tjagain - MemberWorking as Mr Overshoot does is only due to poor management. Its also illegal.
Edit: He is allowing his bosses to take the micky and also to break the law. What is needed is a proper " on call" system
what would happen if you were drunk? Out of phone range? Driving a car? In hospital?
I'm not sure what law is being broken under the W-T-R?
I have 5 engineers who are on a very well run call out rota, but there are some areas they don't have the full skill set to sort every problem & as Slowster alluded to some things are total one off never seen before problems.
Drunk, yep been there got a taxi in (probably not legal)
Out of phone range, has happened but only for a couple of hours.
Driving, have often given tech advice while driving, pulled into an Aldi car park while on holiday and spent an hour talking someone through reprogramming a Bable box.
In Hospital, have only ever been in as a day case, did get picked up by my boss following a double hernia op, 2 weeks later they had to come and take me to work to re code the mill job listing.
This is pretty common amongst my fellow engineering managers throughout the industry, I’m not saying it’s a healthy situation but that’s the reality of manufacturing in the UK.
[s]Being on call 24/7/65 would not be allowed.[/s]
thought I'd better check 🙂 on call at home is not treated the same as on call at work/ sleepover. So its probably not a breach except a technical one over rest periods because the working time clock would stop and start with the phone call and you must have 11 hours off.
I think there would be an issue with hols - technically you are not getting your proper holiday entitlement because of the on call. Bet you work over 48 hrs as well 😉
Not as clear cut as I thought every day is a school day
A genuine question for Mr Overshoot - What would your employer do if you got hit by a bus?
Your employer is seemingly running a business supporting lots of people based on the critical input of a single individual. In the event that you are suddenly no longer available , does their business collapse?
This seems like monumentally bad planning if that's the case.
I sincerely hope that you are leveraging this criticality to your full advantage to achieve suitably "critical" recompense.
tjagain, I appreciate it may be difficult to understand what it may be like working in a role and sector like Mr Overshoot's (I had to have it spelt out to me very bluntly by people like Mr Overshoot).
Perhaps an analogy that might help is farming. The problems that dairy farmers have had with extremely tight margins (again, all part of the same bigger picture that affects food manufacturers, with supermarkets using their dominant bargaining power to force down the prices they pay, so that all of us in turn can pay less for our food and drink) - even to the extent of being paid less than the cost of production of their milk - have been in the news for some years. Those farmers are in a similar situation to Mr Overshoot's company, and whilst they may be self-employed, many of them will also have employees whose livelihoods may also disappear if the farm goes under. Unsurprisingly, farming is a high stress industry, with high numbers of suicides. Commercial pressures and competition mean that the farmers cannot have the level of resources that would allow them to manage an organisation where they could switch the phone off at 5.00pm. They are always on call, and that extends right through the food and drink industry supply chain at senior management level.
Imagine you have a piece of specialist medical equipment in a hospital that is absolutely essential to the hospital, but it is no longer manufactured, the manufacturer no longer exists to provide spares and support, and only you know how to fix it. That would never happen in a hospital because the money would be found to replace the equipment and/or train extra staff to be able to fix it. In the private sector, the cost of replacing such legacy equipment with a new machine may be the tipping point between a factory staying open or it being closed and production being transferred to another factory in the group, or a competitor taking the business off you.
We are talking about cost savings and losses which would account for a fraction of a penny of the cost of a litre of milk, a ready-meal or a supermarket sandwich, but which can make or break a factory when you are talking about millions of units output. For many of these companies, a £2M difference in turnover is negligible - their turnovers are in the order of billions.
I know some people thrive on pressure but MrOvershoot's job sounds like my worst ****ing nightmare 😯 I hope you're VERY well paid & have a nice early retirement plan in place 🙂
Good luck! I've not really got anything to add thats not already been covered. Its hard to deal with though and make sure you give yourself more time than you think you need.
I took a rather extreme approach to burn out a little over 3 years ago, jacked in the job and moved to Spain. Definatly one of my better decisions but it might not be for everyone 😉
don't see how a stranger would make it any easier.
don't think of a therapist as a stranger but as an expert. if you have a problem with the car - get a mechanic; it's the same deal.
To answer a few of the questions:
TJ, you’re probably right that at some time or other I have been in breach of W-T-R but there is probably some get out clause where I was deemed to be in exceptional circumstances?
Perchy, I have sort of raised this question and the honest answer is they would be in deep shite, to be fair we have a new operations director who is trying to address these issues but getting money out of our US owners is a struggle as compared to their plants ours are Hi Tech but it’s the old Hi Tech that is problem.
Zilog6128, I don’t know about thriving on pressure but after 22 years in this job I guess I’ve got used to it, that’s not to say I like it and last year I was seriously on the verge of saying “**ck it I’m off” as it had got to be like my worst **** nightmare . Pay wise it’s OK and I’m not planning on doing this job for many more years, not retiring but scaling down to a 9-5 type job.
don't see how a stranger would make it any easier
I've been seeing a psychologist for the last few weeks, it's been brilliant, much more effective than I could ever have imagined.
OK.... I've had enough. Time to stop this "my job is worse than your job" rubbish.
Time for some ACTUAL ideas rather than blah, blah, blah blah....
I've just finished some excellent Mental Health Training about 30 minutes ago.....
The outcome?.....
2... Things....
Number 1....."Early Help For Mental Health." http://eh4mh.co.uk/
Aimed at 11-18 year olds but the "10 a day" ways of balancing your mental health are great for people of any age... They are:
1.. Talk about your feeling.
2.. Do something you enjoy and are good at.
3.. Keep yourself hydrated.
4.. Eat well.
5.. Keep an active mind and body.
6.. Take a break.
7.. Stay connected to those you care about.
8.. Ask for help.
9.. Be proud of your very being.
10. Actively care for others.
and Number 2.... "Kooth" online Counselling https://kooth.com/
and for the record..... MrOvershoot... you're sailing very close to "what have you got to be depressed about.... you don't know how easy you have it..... i'll show you depressed.."
Vickypea.....Things WILL change....it DOES get better.
Absolutely spot on Simon. I'm a teacher and there is a lot of 'I work harder/ I am more depressed than you' going on. Does nobody any good. Take your bike for long, slow rides and turn off the Strava/ Garmin for once...
Have you ever considered trying melatonin to help you get to sleep or sleep better?
There are two types; regular and time released. In a nutshell, regular helps you to fall asleep while time released helps you stay asleep.
Any archtitects on the thread? While I was at uni I had friends across medicine/engineering/astrophysics/art/humanities - basically every department there was - and without fail the architecture students ALWAYS argued their courses were the most stressful and they had the most work 😀
Finbar.... STOP it.... this isn't about who has it worse.
It's about finding ways to cope.
Mr Overshoot's comments were in response to the suggestion
Switch off phone and email the second you finish work. Work mobile comms are a tool for YOU to do YOUR job when away from your desk, not a 24/7 callout lifeline for others.
He was merely noting that for some jobs and some sectors, you simply cannot do that, and being available 24/365 goes with the territory, and I was merely confirming that this is not necessarily symptomatic of poor management and poor organisation.
As to there always being someone worse off, well yes of course there is. Ultimately, it is as much about the individual and how they respond to the stresses of their job and their life generally. We are all different and have our own ways of coping. Someone working in a library may get more stressed than another person working in the most high pressure field imaginable. Nevertheless, for what little it is worth, having seen engineers in various sectors, including heavy and high hazard industries, I would say that the food industry is particularly bad, because of the commercial and operational pressures, the rate of change in the industry (frequent new product lines) and it's much worse if you make a commodity product that your supermarket customer can just as easily buy from a competitor at very short notice (there are generally no long term contracts).
Getting back on track - with regard to the advice to vickypea to just get out and ride her bike, having read her previous posts, I think she tends to take the same all out, driven approach to riding as to other areas of her life, so she needs not to make her burn out worse by going out for 4 hours and physically battering herself on the bike.
Vickypea, I apologise for the thread going off at a tangent, but I would hope that you are chilling out, whether by sitting in a coffee shop, going out on your bike for a pootle (if you can force yourself to do just that and no more), or by practising being a lady of leisure and lying on a sofa eating chocolates and browsing through some winter sun holiday brochures.
you know what helps me
not really giving a shit
work - I have a contract, I do some work and I get paid. and then I forget about it. If you feel you have no options but to sell your soul to your employer then you are a slave and are perpetuating the problem
but most of all I listen to Punk Rock and drink good beer and ride bikes
I think I have said this before but Vicky, please please try taking Vit D3 supplements - so many people here in Norway take them and are recommended
Simon_Semtex - awesome words there dude.
Funnily enough the advice there is very similar to the mental health content being pushed out by NABS (the industry body for those of us in media and advertising), and it's bloody good advice.
One of the key things I always keep in mind is the "find your why" - why do you work? If it's to provide a lifestyle for your family (like most of us), then remember that lifestyle isn't just houses, cars and tangible things, it's being present, happy and immersed in your family's life. If you're stressed out, always on call, constantly on the edge of cracking under the pressure, you're not meeting that objective of providing "lifestyle" to your nearest and dearest, so make a change.
That doesn't mean drop out of a good corporate job and live on a commune - just regain control of your life.
OP, I was in the same situation and recognise the symptoms, also the company was going through a bad time.
I walked in one day in the summer and resigned, working somewhere else now, a bit less stressful. Prior to that had tried hard rides, nights out with friends, hitting the gym, all to no avail, as Monday morning still appeared.
Sometimes you have to tackle the root of the evil.
Simon_Semtex - MemberOK.... I've had enough. Time to stop this "my job is worse than your job" rubbish.
Time for some ACTUAL ideas rather than blah, blah, blah blah....
and for the record..... MrOvershoot... you're sailing very close to "what have you got to be depressed about.... you don't know how easy you have it..... i'll show you depressed.."
Not at all I know Vicky has struggled with things in the past just like me & have given what coping advice I can. Slowster explained my comments better than I can.
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/struggling-with-january-blues-or-something ]http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/struggling-with-january-blues-or-something[/url]
I think I have said this before but Vicky, please please try taking Vit D3 supplements - so many people here in Norway take them and are recommended
Thanks for the reminder. I DID take your advice and took vitamin D last winter/spring though not over the summer as I was getting lots of time outdoors and felt fine. Now the light levels are getting lower (in fact it's been grey and rainy here for most of the past 6 weeks) I will start it again. It's on my shopping list for tomorrow.
I assure you whatever it's like there, it's brighter and sunnier than here
but even though the weather will suck this weekend (4 C, 13m/s wind and raining) I'm off to the mountains tomorrow
just gotta be outside and in nature
Get it wrong in the NHS, and it's unlikely that the hospital would be closed and everyone lose their job. Get it wrong in the food industry, and factory closures with loss of jobs can and do happen.
Try being the safeguarding lead in a school or sixth-form college.
Lives and jobs in your hands, no support for the young people and you in the middle. Get it wrong and everything closes.
I recognise the driven element of your personality Vickypea - I’m also never satisfied. So consequently everything I do has to be done to the max and more and more must be fitted in.
Funnily enough riding a bike hard made it worse - because I didn’t get fit enough and fast enough quickly enough (something to do with working 60-100 hours a week).
Then, when I stopped worrying about whether I’d be fit enough to race, I enjoyed riding a bike again*.
Bikebuoy is right: do something that doesn’t have to be maxed out, something that can only be done slowly and isn’t completed in one sitting. Like slow cooking, you need some slow living where the act of doing - even lying on your back staring at the ceiling - is far more important than the achievement at true end of it.
*And after that, for unrelated reasons, a doctor told me to stop exercising pretty much altogether. I grieved for 2 years and have now come to terms with it: a walk or gentle swim is now something to be treasured rather than despatched in haste.
Not trying to add to the 'my job is harder than yours' argument, but i've been there with the Mr Overshoot and others and sympathise (in my case chemical manufacturing, which thankfully doesn't go tits up very often but when it does, it can go big time) But that's not the point, this is:
I know some people thrive on pressure but MrOvershoot's job sounds like my worst **** nightmare
when those times came it was absolutely amazing. Small teams, pulled together ad-hoc, we've got a major problem, we don't know how to solve it but you people are the smart ones - go! 16 hour days, weekends, calls all time of the day and night..... but you can only do it so long. And thankfully we had a direct boss and also a VP of manufacturing who knew it, and who'd both absolutely cover you to disappear when times were easier to play golf or ride bikes or whatever (US company, lot of golfers 😉 ) and in their words 'decompress'. Both were ex US military / Gulf War and both likened the stress levels to situations they'd seen and experienced there, without the absolute risk; you had to keep going, there's no 'raise your hand at any time if you want out' but afterwards they were absolutely buzzing, and would go out again if they could. Until the inevitable crash, because you can't keep doing it.
So to the point; you MUST have the downtime to allow you to be able to thrive on the pressure. Vickypea and others, you simply have to find something that allows you to forget work. For me it is bikes, the mix of physical effort but also filling your mind even if it's with nothing. But if bikes are no longer cutting the mustard, find something else.
To those who are getting by but don't want to bother the GP or think talking 'to a stranger' is not for them. Yep, done that too. Prided myself on it in fact. The broken leg analogy is OK, but you have to deal with a broken leg. I prefer it being like ignoring that minor rattle on the car, until you didn't notice it because it was normal.... then it became a bit of a knocking..... but the other rattle went away so i'm sure this will, and then you didn't notice it any more..... until it became a banging, and the engine suddenly siezed and now the car's worth scrap. All because you couldn't take your problem to a stranger who knows more about it than you.
Don't wait until you're stood on a railway platform thinking 'right, shut your eyes, two quick steps and this is over' because you were too ****ing proud to admit you didn't know what that minor rattle was or how to fix it.
Not read the whole thread as it went sort of OT in relation to you (Vicky) but, whilst I deffinately agree that you need to take a longer break to get away from it all for while, personally I'd not go to the docs just yet and get signed off on stress or similar.
What I'd do (and I've done it before), is that after a couple of days into your R+R holiday doing nothing, sit down and make a simple list.
Make sure your alone and not to be disturbed for a few hours, turn the TV off and you'll likely find you'll be absorbed into this process.
On one side put all the things you like about your job, on the other all the things you don't.
Then have a think about how you can change the don't likes to have a positive effect on your life. Be honest and realistic as you're not likely to change your life totally overnight, nor will you alone change company policy 'just' to make you better.
As important is to read the bits you like as this will help address the ones you don't and will also give you pointers on what to look for in any job change.
Sometimes even just writing the list can relieve pressure and lift your spirits. The worse thing it will do is make you realise that you are in the wrong job and it isn't good for you.
If you get into it, you can also include likes and dislikes in life not just your job. There might be a few crossovers which could help.
Sounds simple and almost daft as most people think they know what is right and wrong but my take is that it is sort of self counciling, as one can only address issues when you know they exist.
vickypea, I presume that your counselling sessions will be trying to identify the root cause(s) of why you feel extremely depressed at times. I suspect that your very driven approach to work, cycling and life of always giving it 100% may itself be a symptom, e.g. maybe focusing very hard on whatever you are doing at the time to shut out other thoughts, or possibly seeking to be the best at whatever you are doing to compensate for feelings of extreme dissatisfaction with some other aspect of life, or possibly seeking approval from some notional third party.
Unfortunately, that driven approach to everything doesn't work. By that I mean it may make you very good at your job, it may mean you live a very full life, and it may make you an extremely fit cyclist, but it doesn't fix the underlying cause of why you may be unhappy or depressed.
Instead, I suspect that after a period of going so hard and flat out, the resulting burn out (as you describe it) leaves you more vulnerable to being depressed, both because you are then physically, mentally and emotionally run down, but also because of the disappointment that going so hard for so long has still not/yet again failed to fix the underlying problem.
I have hesitated about posting the above comments (internet diagnosis, cod psychology and all that), and I may be completely wide of the mark and if so I can only apologise, but I have done so because I have two concerns, and I felt it necessary to post those comments to explain why.
Firstly, some of us have been suggesting you re-evaluate your life and consider making some very major changes. My concern is that unless you are confident that you know what the underlying root cause(s) are of why you feel and act as you do, then you are not yet in a position to make such a re-evaluation of your life, and it would be premature at such a stage to make a major life change like quitting your job. Before you start to even consider any major life changes, I would strongly recommend you discuss the subject with your counsellor first.
Secondly, from what you have written, it seems that you have a strong tendency to apply the same all out 100% approach to everything in your life, including those activities like cycling, which you use as an escape or a coping mechanism. My concern is that you need to be careful to preserve any coping activity as just that, and not allow yourself to start applying the same driven approach to the coping activity as the rest of your life, otherwise it will only be yet another thing to make you dissatisfied and unhappy.
Vicky your counsellor said about looking after yourself, I know its an often used phrase but its such an easy thing to say but so bloody hard to follow through without a clear plan.
As I have said on a previous thread of yours I found writing down the things that are troubling you or preventing you from relaxing, not so much for yourself but as an aide-memoire when you are asked what needs fixing as I used to kick myself after not remembering what I really wanted help with.
I'm not sure how much that is just me as I wouldn't say I'm a driven person like you appear to be more I just care that things are done correctly and I am utterly hopeless at saying "NO".
Probably due to my just wanting to help people, I blame my mother as she was exactly the same and often missed out on things while she helped others.
One thing in your favour is you have recognised some warning signs and are trying to work through it.
I wasn't ignoring the last 3 long and very thoughtful posts, they were much appreciated.
Firstly I'm not rushing off to do anything drastic just yet. I'm trying to put into practice some self care so I'm being what I would normally describe as "lazy" which includes taking a weekend off my bike. Several years ago I was diagnosed with what the dr described as "bipolar depression" (I don't have mania) so perhaps I have an inclination towards overdoing things and crashing. As I don't (or won't) tolerate antidepressants (I've tried all of them and a couple of mood stabilisers) I've been making the most of the counselling provided by the NHS. [In the past I tried 2 private counsellors who made things worse, so I'm sticking with the NHS 🙂 ]
I do now understand why I am the way I am, but 40-odd years of giving 100% is a hard habit to break and the lesson is just starting to sink in.
No advice I'm afraid from me I wish you all the best.
Sadly I'm on the same end of the poo stick my work is not important I don't save lives or look for cures for cancer but they heap the workload on and keep the stress high deliberately. I've just done a 6 day 12 hour stint and I'm done no energy watching crap TV and back tues and it will be relentless.
This afternoon I'm welding up an old exhaust just to stop thinking about work I even dream about work. I now know in my mind that I'm leaving at some point next year the money's good but having stress from work and the black dog just a extender lead away it's too much.
Good luck
Just remember it is never what happens to you thats the problem, it is how you react thats the problem.
So something happens - you then deal with it by worrying, analysing, avoiding catastrophizing, and so on. This behavious stresses your system and then induces physical and mental symptoms which you then worry about, creating a feedback circuit. When you stop this, you will grafually start to feel better and less anxious. It takes time though, so be patient.
Basically you need to consciously step out of this behaviour. Easier said than done. But you need to practice to be aware when you get lost in your minds worries, and stop adding fuel to it by believing it, analysing it etc.
I do now understand why I am the way I am, but 40-odd years of giving 100% is a hard habit to break and the lesson is just starting to sink in.
Isn't it funny how we find it so hard to accept the best advice about ourselves. And find it so hard to recognise our destructive traits.
The important thing is not to beat ourselves up for our stupidity in doing things in the past, and in not recognising our own faults. Just wear the enlightenment like a lovely new set of clothes and walk onwards with a spring in our step!
