[i]What exactly is the difference between flashing to alert somebody of your presence and flashing to intimidate them, and how do you tell one from the other? Is there some secret code? [/i]
No 'secret code' 🙂 it comes down to the 'reasonableness' test, as set out in section 3 Road Traffic Act 1988.
"when the driving falls below the standard expected of a reasonable, prudent and careful driver in all circumstances of the case"
That 'test' is an objective one there is no 'exact' definition. Failing to observe the Highway Code (the basic rules of the road) is not an offence in itself but may constitute evidence of careless or dangerous driving.
So take a couple of examples:
I'm sat in Lane 1 in an umarked car doing 56 with the heavies, one of which has moved out to Lane 2 to overtake a slower moving vehicle.
Traffic is reasonably light, car in Lane 3 is overtaking within speed limit. I see car approaching in Lane 3 exceeding speed limit, he closes on the car ahead of him and is forced to brake, he continues to close until he is only feet off the bumper, continuing to flash his headlights.
That's intimidation. He would get a pull, words of advice and dependant upon attitude and other checks possibly a FPN, possibly a summons even dependant upon aggrivating factors (wet road, weather conditions etc).
Same situation but Lane 2 is clear, vehicle is cruising in Lane 3 at below 70, failing to keep to the left as per HC (Rule 265) vehicle approaching doing 70 in Lane 3 gives one long (4-5 second) flash to alert driver in Lane 3 who see's him in his mirror and moves to Lane 2.
If he doesn't move to Lane 2? Hang back, leaving at least two seconds, more in the wet. Look at the manner of driving, can you see them looking in their mirror? Are they being deliberately obstructive or have they not seen you? If the latter, try another long head lamp flash. If still don't move, if for some reason they are being deliberately obstructive, DON'T rise to the challenge, rise above it. Move into Lane 2 yourself perhaps, hang back and wait for them to move over.
Traffic is reasonably light, car in Lane 3 is overtaking within speed limit. I see car approaching in Lane 3 exceeding speed limit, he closes on the car ahead of him and is forced to brake, he continues to close until he is only feet off the bumper, continuing to flash his headlights.That's intimidation.
Right, and you'd correctly pull them not because of the flashing but because of their driving. Even had they not flashed you'd still pull them. Th flashing is a complete red herring.
Got a better example?
I take it you are a rozzer then analogue andy?
Is undertaking justified then?
Renton - have to admit over the last 25+ years of driving motorbikes and cars that I have undertook more than once, but it does lead to the situation you found yourself in more often than is acceptable. So now I'm older and wiser I dont do it anymore and thats from experience, better to bide your time.
I will also share with you a true story which happened to me about one year ago.
I was driving south on the M74 a night on a Sunday with all the family on board (in a BMW saloon btw!), the motorway was very empty as it was late evening. There was a large pick up truck with a crew cab cruising down the outside lane at about 60mph. After a while I gave him a polite short single flash to remind him of correct procedure to pull over to inside lane.
He immediately rammed on his brakes and whilst swerving all over the road he eventually stopped in the middle of the two lane motorway on a sweeping right hand turn!! I am now stopped behind him after an emergency stop on a turn, on a motorway, at night, with my wife and kids in the car. He then engages reverse and the window at the back starts to wind down. There was enough space between him and the crash barrier for me to get out of a potentially hostile and dangerous situation, which I did instantly.
All that from a "friendly" flash, and no speeding or tailgaiting..very scary. I didnt have time to get his number needless to say.
Its not worth it.
I have since changed what was a inconspicous dark blue beemer to a bright red one (bought it for the diesel engine not the colour) with tinted windows and its very noticeable how much people cut you up just because of the car.
2 Audis almost killed me tonight. Both driven by women.
One rounded a corner on my side of the road and had to swerve to avoid me.
The other approached a give way junction and shot straight out.
Both times I had to perform an emergency stop.
F*cking ar$eholes.
I'd say there are a number of people who drive flash cars think they can get away with obnoxious driving because there car is 'the ultimate driving machine' and will be able to make up for their poor driving by being well engineered, good brakes, engine etc.
If there was no traffic in the middle lane for 1/2 mile or so, what was the OP doing in the outside lane in the first place? I "undertake" all the time but without all the flashing lights fuss... just have to keep your wits about you, daresay I'll get pulled one day.
TJ - my experience is that cyclists are the worst drivers, my brother said he didn't care if he got a ban because he cycled almost everywhere anyway
[i]Right, and you'd correctly pull them not because of the flashing but because of their driving. Even had they not flashed you'd still pull them. Th flashing is a complete red herring.[/i]
That was the point exactly, the flashing cannot be taken in isolation but needs to be put into context. How the flash is delivered matters.
Another example then,
I'm in Lane 2 approaching a driver who's 'hogging' Lane 2 (i.e. not keeping left when Lane 1 is empty. Again, long head-lamp flash (4 seconds or so) a good distance back as I approach. Only meaning is "I am here". If they move left into Lane 2, all well and good. If they don't I move to Lane 3 to overtake.
It would become intimidation if I were to close the gap (especially to less than 2 seconds) and repeatedly flash them.
Another example: I often use a head-lamp flash as a warning when I'm about to overtake a wide vehicle / van with no interior mirror / more than one vehicle on a single carriageway road - again to help alert them to my presence.
It would become intimidation if I were to close the gap (especially to less than 2 seconds) and repeatedly flash them.
We're agreed then that if you keep a safe gap it's not intimidatory, so nothing to do with the flashing, just whether you're otherwise driving as a c*ck. Good - you won't be pulling me over then (at least not for that 😉 )
I'm in Lane 2 approaching a driver who's 'hogging' Lane 2 (i.e. not keeping left when Lane 1 is empty. Again, long head-lamp flash (4 seconds or so) a good distance back as I approach. Only meaning is "I am here". If they move left into Lane 2, all well and good. If they don't I move to Lane 3 to overtake.
You still have time to correct that.
TandemJeremy - MemberIs undertaking justified then?
Would take too long to explain the rare circumstances when overtaking on the left is permitted, with care, but no, 'undertaking' is not.
'Undertaking' is a very apt name for it. People don't expect to be passed on the inside and, if they do pull across, the 'undertaker' is at fault.
Far better as I already said, to hang back for a few seconds, avoid the conflict and invariably it sorts itself out.
Back to renton and his rush to get to work, he may save a few minutes (does he run from the house to the car and from the car park to his place of work I wonder?) but is it really worth it? Better to leave on time to arrive on time than leave late and never get there.
Shaving just a few mph off your speed makes a huge difference in terms of safety and your ability to control things but little real difference to journey times.
An average 35 mile commute. How much time would you save doing it at an average 80mph as opposed to an average 65mph? (Clue 6 minutes)
Back to TJs associated 'why' thread. 3,000 are killed on the roads every year, 250,000 seriously injured ('serious' means life changing). Everyone knows someone (if not themselves) who's been affected by an event on the roads. Road deaths are the biggest killer of under 25 year old males. Almost all of those deaths and serious injuries are down to the human behind the wheel (they are not "accidents") they are caused by a deliberate act or by deliberately not paying sufficent attention and are entirely preventable.
B.A.Nana - MemberI'm in Lane 2 approaching a driver who's 'hogging' Lane 2 (i.e. not keeping left when Lane 1 is empty. Again, long head-lamp flash (4 seconds or so) a good distance back as I approach. Only meaning is "I am here". If they move left into Lane 2, all well and good. If they don't I move to Lane 3 to overtake.
You still have time to correct that.
Too late, and it's too late. You know what I meant 😉
Thanks for that Andy - so that is pretty much what I said. I just can't believe how many folk think undertaking is justifiable - on this and the other thread.
Oh - and to average 80 you need to spend a lot of time above 100 to make up for the time you are at 60 mph
*shakes head*
[i]aracer - Member
It would become intimidation if I were to close the gap (especially to less than 2 seconds) and repeatedly flash them.
We're agreed then that if you keep a safe gap it's not intimidatory, so nothing to do with the flashing, just whether you're otherwise driving as a c*ck. Good - you won't be pulling me over then (at least not for that ) [/i]
We're not agreed at all I'm afraid. Qualify 'repeated' for me? How many times and how often? Have they seen you and are being deliberately obstructive? How can you tell?
As already said, if you know they've seen you and are being deliberately obstructive the answer is not to sit there repeatedly flashing them, even if you are sat at what you might consider a 'safe distance'. Drop back further, into Lane 2 if it's clear and let them move over. They won't stay out in Lane 3 for ever.
Indeed it is Andy.
For me, I probably drove like Renton when I had a company car, everything paid for by someone else. Now, owning my car, I drive completely differently. My driving style now has a direct impact on my insurance, amount of fuel I use, wear and tear and therefore ultimately, cash in my pocket. Some people say it's about becoming older and wiser, but for me, my driving style changed dramatically on losing the company car I had from aged 19 to 29.
As already said, if you know they've seen you
How can you possibly know? More to the point, if you're talking about pulling me for it, how can you know that I know that they know I'm there even if you know that they know I'm there?
They won't stay out in Lane 3 for ever.
That's where I reckon you're wrong. I have had for instance somebody sitting in lane 2 (of a 2 lane motorway) who did actually pull over after a few flashes. After I'd overtaken them and moved into lane 1 they moved back out into lane 2 again. It only takes a small shift from that mentality to refuse to move out of lane 2 (or 3) at all, and I'm convinced that had I dropped back or moved into lane 1 they'd have definitely stayed there. He was the only other car in sight on the motorway, in front or behind.
[i]How can you possibly know? [/i]
Can you see their mirror? Can you see them looking in their mirror? (Head movements)? (I'm not suggesting you get that close 😉
[i]More to the point, if you're talking about pulling me for it, how can you know that I know that they know I'm there even if you know that they know I'm there? [/i]
Comes back again to judgement, general manner of their driving not only in relation to the headlamp flash. Plus as said, if you were pulled it would not be 'just' for the flash but for getting too close for example. When you were stopped they'd ask you, "why have a I pulled you".. "You were flashing the car in front, would you like to tell me why?"
That's where I reckon you're wrong. I have had for instance somebody sitting in lane 2 (of a 2 lane motorway) who did actually pull over after a few flashes. After I'd overtaken them and moved into lane 1 they moved back out into lane 2 again. It only takes a small shift from that mentality to refuse to move out of lane 2 (or 3) at all, and I'm convinced that had I dropped back or moved into lane 1 they'd have definitely stayed there. He was the only other car in sight on the motorway, in front or behind.
This is the thing that bugs me with driving in this country is that most people don't seem to understand lane disapline. How many times have you been bhind some one in lane 2 of a dual carrige way as they want to turn right on the third roundabout ahead or that right trun 2 miles away. I have also seen plenty of cars late at night pull on to the motorway straight in to lane 2 even though the only other car to be seen is me and im going faster than them.
AnalogueAndy - yeah that'll be the IAM - I thought the acronym looked wrong. Or, wheel shufflers, if you'd prefer?
So, you slow down & wait for them to pull over?? How long do you wait? I have seen many instances on sections of the A1 where someone refuses to move out of lane 2. Even when people start to undertake they still sit there in 'their' lane for miles & miles.
Must you slow your journey down indefinitely because someone else is too ignorant/arrogant/stupid/unaware or whatever else causes it to use the correct lane?
And at no point did the OP say that the flashing of lights was 'aggressive' but this seems to have been assumed by all the 'holier than thou' brigade.
For the record i flashed him once for no longer than two seconds.
i would class his flashing at me once everyother second for about a mile aggresive .
i had sat behind him for at least half a mile and it was clear he didnt want to move over.
i bet the clio had sat behind him for a bit to before i caught them up.
it was clear that he wasnt going to move over, sorry couldnt see his eyes in the mirror as a, i wasnt close enough and b, it was dark.
Alot of people are making the link between speed and safety, which is fair enough, but what about the link between awareness and saftey?
Surely doing 80 mph, using your mirrors, aware of whats going on around you is safer that doing 65 mph in the middle lane completely oblivious to every thing around you??
As 2 who middle lane hoggs, its all types of cars. However the difference is that people in BM's, Mercs, Range Rovers etc for some reason take a lot more offence when you point out what a d!ck they are being