Ive just p[osted up there^^^^^^^ clio undertook and carried on in the inside lane!!
by the time i had got passed the beemer the clio had caught the other traffic up.
Why can't we just all get along? Why does such aggression and tension have to exist on the daily commute, just because 'we' are inside little tin cans designed to rip ridiculous amounts of money out of our pockets for the benefit of others, just to show who has more money then who?
I'm getting increasingly bored with the rat race! What is the point?
Can you tell I was 40 recently?
coffeeking - Member
Good for you that you have so few things to fit into a day that a few minutes are not important to you. What would you do if they didn't move over, as is often the case?
If you have to slow from 70 to 60 mph for an hour it cost you about 8 1/2 minutes.
It's unlikely you would have to sit behind a driver for more than 5 minutes before they became aware of you. Total time cost is less than a minute, which I am sure you could make up with your superior driving skills.
The roads are for everyone - from young heroes with razor sharp reactions, ancient grannies doddering off to visit family, harassed mothers with a car full of screamers, and reps in a hurry. If you can't allow for the lowest common denominator in these situations maybe it's time to take a road skills course.
BTW what do you do when you get stuck behind a cyclist on a narrow road?
Keva - surely Renton meant that the carriageway was clear for at least 1/2 a mile AHEAD?? Rather than perhaps 1/2 a mile in front & 1/2 a mile behind........?
The assumption being that as the middle and inside lanes were clear for 1/2 a mile (ahead) the lane hog had nothing impeding him moving into a more suitable lane).
The Renault Clio driver was irrelevant at this point in the proceedings. He was probably more concerned about his bonnet flying open without warning to get involved in this little feud.
stumpy is correct !! mway was clear for at least 1/2 mile ahead, no reason for bmw to be where it was.
like me the clio driver had probably tried to make him aware he was in the wrong lane for the speed and conditions and got fed up so undertook.
I rarely exceed 70mph 9there is no point as you don't get anywhere quicker) and I get sick of idiots flashing me or sitting on my bumper, I slow down a bit if they do it. I am sorry but unless you are a police officer you don't tell me what to do ta v much. Yes there are idiots on the road, but everyone will be an idiot in someone elses eye.
Don't even get me started on slip road discipline! Do people joining the motorway not realise it's not their right of way. I almost got wiped out by some halfwit going to fast whilst joining the motorway.
I rarely exceed 70mph 9there is no point as you don't get anywhere quicker)
Well you do actually - basic law of physics, time = distance / speed.
**** me does it really matter?
Monkeychild has a point, I'm sure we've all seemed like idiots to other drivers at some time or other. still no need to sit in outside lane if road is clear, however I get pretty pi**ed off when people flash me, particularly if they've only been there a second or two - I have mirrors, I generally know you're there !! In some countries, Germany for example, flashing is the norm and everyone does it and everyone usually moves out of the way as soon as it is safe to do so, it's not "the norm" here though, hence people get annoyed with it.
I too have had several "experiences" (of a driving nature) with BMW drivers, usually way too fast, usually impatient, one was reading work documents whilst driving (for several miles), which was ok 'cos he's really important! Worst one was whilst driving north on A1 I was in outside lane, a reasonable distance behind vehicle in front, doing a steady 75 - (keeping pace with traffic) lots of taffic in both lanes so nowhere to go, and this nob pulls right up my a**e and stays there for several miles, clearly trying to bully me out of the way, he could not go anywhere as both lanes were very busy so whats the point. I just stayed put for ages and eventually slowed down, this just made him undertake (recklessly I might add) and then he pulled in front of me and slammed his anchors on, do these people see themselves or their business meeting as that important?
nothing is worth risking life for...muppets
It is absolutely true that driving like a cock does not get you there significantly faster. I have had this proven twice on journey of 3+ hours - two cars one going hell for leather one on a relaxed cruise less than 10 mins later in a 3 hr journey.
It is basic physics - the time you spend going faster because you are driving like a cock is so small in relation to the total journey time that it is insignificant
If in an 60 mile journey you spend all of it at 60 mph it takes an hour. spend 20 mins at 70and the rest at 60 and you save 3 mins. to get that 20 mins at 70 you have to drive like a cock.
In the OPs commute I bet the driving like a cock saved him under a minute.
The defence some of you make of the reckless driving and the undertaking is breathtaking, stupid and just wrong. The correct thing for the OP to have done is to have moved into the middle lane and dropped back and relaxed. Mr supercock in the BMW would have got bored and got out of the way then you can continue on your way at a normal speed rather than getting involved in a roadf rage.
Why a cycling forum will defend reckless driving is incomprehensible to me.
I have driven fast and ridden fast motorcycles a lot at speeds that would make you blush. (and put me in jail) I have learnt to avoid getting into situations like the OPs 'cos the few seconds it saves it not worth the stress.
Every day I do a 50 mile each way commute on the M62/M1. The amount of ****in idiots that drive in the middle or outside lane with nothing in the inside lane is ridiculous and completly cloggs up the motorway.
It is easily possible to stay in the inside lane and pass streams of cars outside you without having to do dangerous manouvers etc. Some times you do get some one who sits in the outside lane at 60 mph and if I am behind them I will flash. If they are that unaware, they shouldnt be on the road!
Undertaking is right, and I appreciate that, but neither is satying in outer lanes and having no comprehension of what is going on around you.
As to the original post fair enough to the undertake, but to get involved up to 100mph is stupid.
How come the French can get motorway driving right, and we fail so badly?
Also I'm all for minimum speeds on the motorway. At rush hour the average speed is 70-90mph in the outside lane. Then some numpty doing 50mph will put infront of some one and nearly cause an accident, or force lorries to over take them. Oh and then thers slip roads. Why the fu@k do people think that you slow down on the motorway, before getting on to the slip road? Its some thing thats got worse over the past few years and is plain dangerous.
If in an 60 mile journey you spend all of it at 60 mph it takes an hour. spend 20 mins at 70and the rest at 60 and you save 3 mins. to get that 20 mins at 70 you have to drive like a cock.
But, with respect, you're only talking about driving "like a cock" (i.e. swiftly and smoothly, overtaking slower folk who mutter "wont get there any faster") on motorways, where sure enough the time gains are fairly minimal. Take it to dual carriageways and large open A roads and the gains are vast.
Flashing someone to ask them to move over, or continuing on your way with an undertake is not dangerous or aggressive, it's just common sense.
to get that 20 mins at 70 you have to drive like a cock.
No, you just have to have other road users not driving like cocks, it really is that simple.
I rarely exceed 70mph 9there is no point as you don't get anywhere quicker) and I get sick of idiots flashing me or sitting on my bumper, I slow down a bit if they do it. I am sorry but unless you are a police officer you don't tell me what to do ta v much.
They're flashing you, probably, because you're sat in a lane when you could be over one lane. It doesnt matter what speed they're doing, or what speed you're doing, if you're in a lane when you should be in the one to the left, you're in the wrong. The rules of the road say keep left unless overtaking. Admittedly some people do flash when you're passing someone just because they want to go faster, to them it's the proverbial finger.
It is basic physics - the time you spend going faster because you are driving like a cock is so small in relation to the total journey time that it is insignificant
You're using my words, but not the context I used them in - was replying to the assertion that there's no point going over 70 as you don't get there any quicker (nothing to do with driving style - you can drive like a c*ck at 50mph if you want).
FWIW personally in the original situation as described I'd have pulled over into the left lane and accelerated up to the speed I wanted to do, leaving the BMW driver to do whatever speed he wanted to in the right lane. Definitely prefer having a lane gap if going past on the left, and original scenario describes left and middle lane as empty. I don't really care if TJ thinks that would be driving like a c*ck.
Coffeeking - no they are not vast gains on motorways and dual carriageways. A few minutes in the hour - you don't spend enough time going faster to make a significant difference. Hence my use of 60 and 70 mph in the sums. I have proven this before and there are many examples of it. Because you constantly accelerate and decelerate to and from the higher speeds you spend little time at the higher speeds and as in the sums I did above it makes a very small difference.
Try it on your commute. Same time of day drive like a cock one day and in a smooth cruise the next and compare. It will be less than 5 mins in the hour difference even on a motorway
How come the French can get motorway driving right,
my experience of driving in France is that a car will approach from the rear and sit on your bumper for 5 miles until a vehicle can be seen approaching from the oppsite direction ----- only then will the overtaking manoeuvre take place
If you drove from Lands End to John O Groats (874 miles) at 80 mph it'd take ~11 hours. If you did it at 70 it'd take ~12.5 hours. That's a 1.5 hour saving. There is no point to this post. Thanks.
If you have to slow from 70 to 60 mph for an hour it cost you about 8 1/2 minutes.
8.5 minutes I might need for some reason, and it's not your right to judge whether I need it, but that's by the by.
It's unlikely you would have to sit behind a driver for more than 5 minutes before they became aware of you.
Often they're aware of you, but they refuse to move. That's fine, I'll pass on the inside if you insist on pointlessly sitting in the outside.
Total time cost is less than a minute, which I am sure you could make up with your superior driving skills.
Why, thank you. I could, but it would generally mean I have to drive like an idiot to do so, rather than safely.
The roads are for everyone - from young heroes with razor sharp reactions, ancient grannies doddering off to visit family, harassed mothers with a car full of screamers, and reps in a hurry. If you can't allow for the lowest common denominator in these situations maybe it's time to take a road skills course.
No, the roads (or particularly motorways) are for people who have sufficient skills and an acceptable level of performance, as certified by a test/license procedure. The outside/middle lane hoggers would fail that test (if only it included motorways!) for not returning to the left after passing. They, therefore, either force the whole network to their speed like a rolling roadblock, or people pass them on the inside.
BTW what do you do when you get stuck behind a cyclist on a narrow road?
I wait til I can pass, though I'd rarely (never if I can help it) take a road that was too narrow to pass a cyclist anyway. How does meeting a single slow vehicle on a single-track road related to outside lane hoggers on a motorway, exactly?
Coffeeking - no they are not vast gains on motorways and dual carriageways. A few minutes in the hour - you don't spend enough time going faster to make a significant difference. Hence my use of 60 and 70 mph in the sums. I have proven this before and there are many examples of it. Because you constantly accelerate and decelerate to and from the higher speeds you spend little time at the higher speeds and as in the sums I did above it makes a very small difference.Try it on your commute. Same time of day drive like a cock one day and in a smooth cruise the next and compare. It will be less than 5 mins in the hour difference even on a motorway
If you get caught out by lights and people driving slowly, hence stuck at 30-40 in 60s and stopped for approximately 20% of the time on an otherwise 60mph road journey, it makes no significant difference? I'm not sure how you've proved that? Having completed the same 20 mile commute for 9 years, some days driving quick, some slow, some in rush hour, some not depending on "shift", I'm fairly able to make the judgement that I could shave over 15 minutes off my 1 hr commute time just by being a little more assertive with my driving, rather than dallying along like half the morning folk. 25%. Thats a fairly hefty difference. But your milage seems to vary from mine.
How come the French can get motorway driving right, and we fail so badly?
Someone praising French driving? I've seen it all now!
Btw the reason French motorways are so much better is that the population density is about half ours, and you have to pay to use the motorways so their upkeep is assured and they get a lot less traffic.
Driving from Cardiff to London at 80 saves about 11 mins from a 2 hour journey over driving at 70.
Driving as fast as you possibly can though does get you places quickly. A mate of mine had to drop me off at the airport after a Polaris, and we basically forgot that I had a flight to catch so ended up terribly late. He basically floored it in his 2l non turbo Subaru, and did it in about 2 hours something from the Western lakes. To be honest I'd rather have missed my flight than risk him lose his license but he seemed game.
EDIT: We desperately need motorway driving skills on our driving test. Even if it's a simualtor for peopel who cant' get to motorways.
They're flashing you, probably, because you're sat in a lane when you could be over one lane. It doesnt matter what speed they're doing, or what speed you're doing, if you're in a lane when you should be in the one to the left, you're in the wrong
I do obey lane discipline and have had it happen numerous times when overtaking folk (how come more people seem to sit at around 60 in the middle lane these days??).
Try it on your commute. Same time of day drive like a cock one day and in a smooth cruise the next and compare. It will be less than 5 mins in the hour difference even on a motorway.
Well I can certainly save 2-3 minutes by overtaking people on my ~10 minute commute. Of course as I said above it all depends whether you describe all overtaking (according to the rules of the HC) as driving like a c*ck - though I was assuming that a smooth cruise excluded dropping a cog and flooring it.
coffeeking - Member
....the roads (or particularly motorways) are for people who have sufficient skills and an acceptable level of performance, as certified by a test/license procedure...
No matter what you think of them other drivers have passed that test.
There is a wide variance in skills etc. If you can't accept that maybe you shouldn't be on the road. A race track maybe.
Flashing him is not friendly
i agree, im sure your a nice chap and all ;), but if you pulled up behind me and flashed your lights, sadly i would think what a knob.
i don't hog the outside lane though, its scary in a 1.4 9 year old fiesta 😉
No matter what you think of them other drivers have passed that test.
Many of them wouldn't pass it if taken again though, and I'd suggest a majority wouldn't pass if they were assessed on their day to day driving (in the interests of fairness I'd probably fail that!)
TJ i think you are enjoying calling me a cock today, you sure you dont drive a beemer!!!
so what if i got upto 100mph for all of a second with clear roads in front of me(apart from mr bmw) ive been driving for over 15 years now and havent got any points thank you.
ive also done a few track days and would like to think i know how to handle a car , all of which is beside the point.
so today you think that mr beemer is ok to sit at 60 in the outside lane causing all the traffic behind to build up and that i should of just dropped into the middle lane and gone slower so i dont undertake mr amazing sat in the outside lane............
get a grip man it doesnt happen like that in real life!!!
EDIT monkey boy i flashed him once at a safe distance so not to scare him after i had followed him for quite a while
No I don't think the beemer did the right thing at all - but neither did you. I said you were driving like a cock - not that you are one. a subtle but important difference.
Yes you should have dropped into the middle lane and slowed behind mr BMW supercock. thats the safe thing to do. It would have cost you a few seconds at most if anything.
[i]on the continent although they drive up your arse and at stupid speeds, most drivers do not hog the middle and outer lanes [/i]
Somebody who's never driven in The Netherlands then? The Germans even comment about how they come up behind a middle-laner and it'll have yellow number plates.
As to driving fast doesn't get you there quicker, thats bollocks.
My house to my folks is 350 miles. If I never exceeed the speed limit it will take me a minimum of 7 hours, often longer (70 mph for 250 miles and 60 mph for 100 miles plus time sat in queues plus eating/resting time). But when I floor it with just myself in the car at a quiet time, I've managed it in 4 hours without stopping.
Or - I regularly use to travel from south of Leeds to north of Newcastle, by driving quick I could commute it rather than stay-over - result, wife happy.
Renton,
Just a thought, if say, the Clio had been a Police car, would you have altered the way you would have dealt with the BMW?
Not trying to have a go, just curious.
ski ....
no i wouldnt , hopefully the cooper would have seen what was occuring and pull the beemer driver over for obstructing the traffic, incorrect lane discipline etc etc
Someone praising French driving? I've seen it all now!
Ditto.
I've driven abroad quite a lot and the standard of driving is no better.
I recall driving from Munich into Austria on a skiing holiday. The density of traffic was very high and the number of accidents and ridiculous examples of speeding, tailgating etc was outrageous, far worse than anything I have seen even in rush hour on the M6 or M25!
TandemJeremy - Member
No I don't think the beemer did the right thing at all - but neither did you. I said you were driving like a cock - not that you are one. a subtle but important difference.Yes you should have dropped into the middle lane and slowed behind mr BMW supercock. thats the safe thing to do. It would have cost you a few seconds at most if anything.
How would it have cost only a few seconds to go from 60 down to 55 and stay at that speed as the car isn't changing lane raher than the 70 that he is allowed to do.
It is agains the law to drive in the incorrect lane of a dual carrigeway/motorway.
Over a very short journey (distance wise) then a high speed save you very little. But if i was to drive from my house to my mother inlaws at 60 then rather than the 11 odd hours it takes at 80 it would take a hell of a lot longer. (80 is legal as we are talking continetal europe).
I am getting a BMW as a Company Car in 3 weeks time. Think i will stick to trail centres 😆
True renton
Funny how as soon as you see a police car on the motorway, car indicators seem to suddenly start working, spaces between cars increase and speeds are reduced 😉
I had a motorway accident a few years back in which I was very lucky not to get hurt badly from and it changed my driving style dramatically.
Still remember the police office who dealt with me at the scene, saying an off the cuff remark, "I know you weren't speeding as you are still breathing!"
That had a big impact on me.
Now I am the sad person sat in the inside lane following whatever at a safe distance 😉
Funny how as soon as you see a police car on the motorway ... and speeds are reduced
Yeah, to 65mph. Muppets.
I can't quite believe this has managed to go on for so long, but it is quite amusing.....
You CAN undertake; unless you are doing it in a stupid manner you will not get pulled for it.
So, how is the act of undertaking 'driving like a c0ck'?
As for the whole 'hardly makes a difference in time' arguement - that's a load of old toot.
A mate of mine I go riding with generally drives faster than I do. We have on several occasions left work at the same time (we used to work at the same place) and off he'd go at a much faster speed than me. I think it's about a 35mile drive to the car park we'd leave the cars at. By the time I had arrived, he'd already have his bike out of the car, lights fitted, other kit out and would be sat there (or getting changed). He would get there approx. 7-10 mins quicker than me over a 35 mile drive.
Also on the way home it is a 60 mile journey, I know that if I am not in a rush it takes me about 1hr 25mins. If I am going hell for leather to get home, I have managed it in 1hr 9mins. Which means I can get to the fish & chip shop, buy my dinner, get it home, serve it up & have eaten half of it in the time it takes to just get home had I been driving 'normally'.
As for the outrage of cyclists daring to discuss the matter of undertaking......erm......what has that got to do with anything? Undertaking a slow moving car sat in the outside lane implies nothing about how I would handle driving situations near a cyclist.
I must have undertaken hundreds of cars and have never even come close to having an incident.
Keep meaning to say as well & forgetting that if you learn advanced driving techniques (AIM stuff) there are times when you are positively encouraged to flash your lights to signal your presence - like overtaking on a single carriageway road.
He would get there approx. 7-10 mins quicker than me over a 35 mile drive.
...and would then have to wait for you to kit up anyway.
So all that extra fuel burnt, stress, anger, rage, pent up sexual angst, furious masturbatory activity etc etc, & not forgetting the undertaking, it was all for nothing.
😉
True - but he does get to whinge at me for being so slow & what he does with this time is irrelevant in the context of this rather heated debate.
Now stop being picky, this is a serious discussion 😉
will undoubtably be because you flashed him, if you flashed me in a "let me past mortal" stylee, i wouldnt move over for you either, and ide more likely boot it if you went to undertake.
or if you were on a motor bike, indicate left as soon as you went for the indicate (as that tends to cause brown leathers)
i wouldnt have been doing 60 though, but stop being an impatient tool?
were you in an audi?
FYI, "european" for "i wish to be going faster than you but you are in my way" is to put your right (or in thier case left) indicator on.
and please turn your foglights/drls off (this includes Volvos, they are not fixed on at all, rtfm)
if you flashed me in a "let me past mortal" stylee, i wouldnt move over for you either, and ide more likely boot it if you went to undertake.
Having admitted to two undesirable driving traits, would you also admit to finding yourself in a position where you were in the right lane of a motorway with the lane on your left empty such that you could move over?
I'm not reading all that!
Someone sumarise.
Oh and from the very first thread - why didn't you judge speed up and nudge him with your bumper? Bet he would have moved then 😉
Olly - Member
and please turn your foglights/drls off (this includes Volvos, they are not fixed on at all, rtfm)
Mine are unless i pay volvo a lot of money to turn them off. I can even scan and post the bit in the FM if you want.
From the highway code - note the wording is different to how it used to be
# only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
# stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left
Do you think people driving similar levels of cars to BMW (eg Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, Porsche) also complain about "BMW drivers" constantly?
Smacks of envy imo.
(ps I don't even drive, let alone own a BMW)
[i]Keep meaning to say as well & forgetting that if you learn advanced driving techniques (AIM stuff) there are times when you are positively encouraged to flash your lights to signal your presence - like overtaking on a single carriageway road.[/i]
What is this "AIM" to which you refer? ;-)?
Yes, the IAM encourage use of headlights, for one purpose and one purpose ONLY, as the Highway Code says, [b]to alert someone to your presence[/b], that does [u]not[/u] include (also as the Highway Code says) intimidating other drivers by trying to tell someone "I'm behind you and you should move over".
that does not include (also as the Highway Code says) intimidating other drivers by trying to tell someone "I'm behind you and you should move over".
Though if they continue to sit there with an empty left lane after the first time you've flashed to say "I am here", the only logical conclusion is that they didn't notice the first time, so it's perfectly reasonable to try and help them notice you again. What exactly is the difference between flashing to alert somebody of your presence and flashing to intimidate them, and how do you tell one from the other? Is there some secret code?
Its a real shame that Top Gear don't find some way of making good driving techniques fashionable.