[Closed] fattist idiots!!

Or conventionally ugly? 😕

Or unconventially ugly? 😥

It's not too much to ask.

unless it's [b]ton[/b] :o)

Wow! it would appear that this has turned into a mostly sensible discussion.

ghengis:
I said yesterday that

.....very difficult to say when issues with over or under consumption of food becomes a non-elective psychological condition.
Would long term anorexics benefit from being kicked out of hospital, told to eat something and then left to it?

This is not a black and white issue - from my own experience and of that of many people I've spoken to, weight issues are usually a manifestation of deeper self image problems, especially, [b]but not exclusively[/b] for those at either end of the scale (no pun intended :D).
Does anyone seriously believe that apart from one or two publicity seeking individuals, anyones chooses to be morbidly obese, anorexic or bulimic, to inflict this level of self-harm upon themselves?

Many people with weight issues have to be very self disciplined in unhappy or incredibly stressful aspects of their life that they have little control over.
I see this daily in my job.
Food (or alcohol, gambling, shopping, an abusive relationship - take your pick) becomes a release, a solace and one they eventually have difficulty controlling.

Of course many, many people, probably the ones who have been the most offensive on this thread, are able to cope with great stress and unhappiness in their lives without resorting these things and they are to be envied.
It would be nice to think that if they ever find themselves in a situation they are not able to control they will be offered help, instead of being judged as weak and ignorant.

Nice to see that the 'jolly fat man' stereotype is alive and well, as ably demonstrated yesterday. Respond and we reinforce it, don't respond and you're patronised. We can't win can we?
As a short bloke (supposedly angry) and a fat bloke too (supposedly happy and cheerful) I'm luckily able to recognise these stereotypes for the nonsense that they are 😀

Thanks to the usual suspects for their thoughtful and incisive posts on this subject. On the other hand, some of the posts attempting to draw a correlation between intelligence and weight issues are insulting in the extreme, and have certainly modified my opinion about some of the regular posters on this forum.

Thanks for reading, I'm off for some lunch!

Well said RS. Although it should be pointed out that acknowledging a problem doesn't mean that you therefore don't have to try and fix it. So the above is not an excuse, merely an analysis of the depth of the problem.

Its a very odd feeling craving food. I have booted fags into touch and only drink occasionally at the weekend (I used to do both in excess). The only thing that has kept me awake at night though is this craving..got to eat..got to eat. Hunger? No.just peckish.[i] Greedy[/i]

This kind of behavour got me up to 110KG pretty much un-noticed in a few married years (I was 85KG at 19) and the only thing that pushed me to change was having a baby. Couldnt affort 2 cars so one went and I got on a bike for the first time in 10 years! I got down to 92kg last year but it took real concious effort -

Trouble is that effort must be sustained . I am gutted as now my weight has bounced up to 97kg. I ride my bike just as much but I give into the lust for food more often... You let your guard down and you are eating again. All those new clothes are starting to get tight. Your willy gets smaller. (its true you know)

So I am giving it another go (Marin Roughride in June 🙂 )

3 days and its all good. No binging (a big problem for me; a snack turns into a blowout) No half-loaves of bread. Long way to work. Lots of water.

It is down to the individual to loose weight. The more society accepts larger people though, the less the individual feels he/ she needs to change. Only [i]now[/i] do I realise how unbelievably unheathy I was.

edit. Oh and my Wife informs me I am snoring again 😯

Has anyone mentioned the role of the food companies in this - while I believe most overweight people do not have psychological issues but I also believe the rise in obesity is down in a large part to the food companies and a couple of things in particular - trans fats and high fructose corn syrup - (which is more or less what is used in sports energy drinks.)

Its lethal stuff

good for you Dancake.

[i]draw a correlation between intelligence and weight issues[/i]

And sense of humour.

The very fat family I encountered today in McD's tucking into more food than most folk could manage (and I make an assumption here) are fat by their own doing. Their kids are fat because the parents are fat. The parents are fat because they eat too much fast food. The kids notion that two Big Macs can be negated with a diet coke probably gives a fair reflection of the valuable insight into life that they have received from their parents.

Fruit's filling too you know.

I can't believe some people on here are trying to even suggest that the blame could possible lie elsewhere other than themselves in a person being fat!

When travelling through Cambodia, guess what? I never saw one fat Cambodian! And I guarantee the vast majority of them have far greater issues and troubled histories than some overweight middle class mountain bikers from Britain! They eat moderate amounts of food, not by choice, the only difference for people in western countries is that you have to consciously limit the food by saying no occasionally. And maybe take a ride or walk. Dead easy!

PS if anyone does want to lose weight fast - Pennine way on army rations, 1 1/2 stone in 16 days, more scenic than the Atkins!

geminafantasy - good post. End of thread I think.

Although I am 16 stone I am anorexic, every time I look in the mirror I see a fat Bast4rd looking back at me 😀

On a more serious note, where do you draw the line between big and fat? Someone posted they can easily distinguish the difference but I want to know where the line is, at 5' 10" and 16 stone, am I fat or am I big? And don't use the generic BMI thing because apart from my waist there is very little excess ie, the muscle definition in my legs and arms is very pronounced. Other things to consider are my cholestrol is 4.3, my last Hba1c was 6.7 (have type 1 diabetes), my liver and kidney functions are normal, my blood pressure is spot on, my resting heart rate is 48, there is no protein in my urine, I walk with my palms facing inwards, do not have sausage fingers or piggy eyes and have only lost time at work in the last 6 years due to mtb accidents/injuries - would you employ me if I was qualified for the job with the relative experience?

Well, assuming you're not ginger, sure 😉

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8629768.stm ]votchy - I don't want to piss on your bonfire but....[/url]

molgrips
Yep, spot on, I should have added something to that effect.

As for the humour thing Samuri, I've got no problem with people having a laugh and a joke, some really amusing comments on here.
But some have posted comments which seem almost pathological in their hatred and contempt - I wonder whether these posters display such levels of intolerance and ignorance to other sectors of society, or is it just reserved for fatties?

I found this W.H.O site this morning, which seems to give a good overview of the worldwide extent of the problem and possible causes of the obesity epidemic: [url= http://www.who.int/dietphysicalactivity/publications/facts/obesity/en/ ]link here[/url].

Also, talking about this last night someone (very thin BTW!) came up with the theory that humans are genetically predisposed to increase body mass during times of plenty as a safeguard against famine. So if you give people access to limitless supplies of unhealthy cheap food, they are almost hardwired to binge as much as possible.
Not saying I agree with this, but interesting nontheless.
Even though we understand that obesity is a bad thing, maybe it's going to take many generations for the message to get through and for us to evolve a sense of healthy proportion when it comes to food.
Doing so takes enormous self discipline, which many people just don't have, or if they do they don't realise it. Comes down to self worth again maybe?

Reading about others struggles with weight issues on here has prompted me to redouble my own efforts. I'm about 2 stone overweight and I know I'd feel better without it, and would be a better bike rider to boot.
So, I'll cut out the crap, reduce portion sizes, stay off the pop and see what happens. I need to make behavioural changes too - I tend to eat crap when a bit down, much more self discipline required in that area.

wonder whether these posters display such levels of intolerance and ignorance to other sectors of society, or is it just reserved for fatties?

I'd say it's quite likely, that someone harbouring that much prejudice towards just one group of people because of their perceived inferiority, is probably prejudiced towards others they perceive to be inferior to themselves. As I've said earlier; prejudice is essentially a symptom of a person who feels inadequate, and needs to debase others in order to feel better about themselves.

possible causes of the obesity epidemic

I bet i could have a guess....

[img] [/img]

Talkemada - Member

Really, so you can you honestly point at a situation where being obese is good for the overall health of any individual?

There are many instances of people being malnourished and underfed. It's just that overweight people are easier to spot...

Answer the question

Really? Do tell how do you work that one out.

Why, are you too thick to work it out yourself?

Nope but apparently you are unable to phrase a reasonable reply for one reason or another. I'm choosing another.

No question that obesity is a terrible issue for many people. However, reverting back to the OP I still fail to see why an employer should not take an individuals health into account as part of a recruitment process. Obesity is just one indicator amongst many that a person may have ongoing health issues. So why should they not take it into consideration as a factor in a reasoned decision making process? That is not to say the sole factor, just one of many.

BermBandit; the response you quote was in relation to your questioning why mental health issues would have a greater impact on an individual's ability to do a job (in most cases) than their weight. Seeing as how most jobs these days aren't significantly physical, the only real effort required would be mental. Thus, mental illness would probably have a greater impact than weight issues.

An individual must be judged on their ability to do a job, not on anything unrelated to that task. It's the Law.

Discriminating against a person because of the assumption that they [i]might[/i] suffer health issues that would hinder their productivity is unfair. A slim, 'healthy' looking person may develop health issues that would hinder them far more than excess weight. You simply can't tell, just by looking at someone, how they might turn out. If a person has medical issues that may affect their ability to work, then this must be taken into account. Just saying 'oh, sorry, you're too fat, we don't want you', is not on.

the only difference for people in western countries is that you have to consciously limit the food by saying no occasionally. And maybe take a ride or walk. Dead easy!

Of course it is - dead easy! That's why everyone who has tried to lose weight has found it really easy! 🙄

It's actually very difficult mate. It can take a hell of a lot more than 'saying no occasionally'. And I might suggest further that people telling them how ridiculously easy it is can make fat people hate themselves even more when they fail.

We should acknowledge that it can be very difficult, it can sometimes be a lifelong struggle and it is a lot harder for some people than others. But many of us have to try to better ourselves in this and many other aspects of life. And the less nastiness and vicious jokes that are flying around, the happier we'll all be.

I really can't understand how people think it's ok to point and laugh at people with a problem, whatever it is. It's not real humour, it's just trying to make yourself feel good by pointing out the people that you perceive to be worse than you - and it's downright disgraceful.

However, reverting back to the OP I still fail to see why an employer should not take an individuals health into account as part of a recruitment process.

Obesity is just one indicator amongst many that a person may have ongoing health issues. So why should they not take it into consideration as a factor in a reasoned decision making process? That is not to say the sole factor, just one of many.

Anyone seen some sense of proportions lying discarded around here? I think some have been mislaid recently 🙂

fat people hate themselves

END OF THREAD!

If anyone wants a Pastry Positive t-shirt please go to www.fingermycoulis.com, various designs available! 🙂

Can you put this on the back please across the shoulders....

cos it tastes so ****ing good.................

How about "...because I'm worth it"

An individual must be judged on their ability to do a job, not on anything unrelated to that task. It's the Law.

Which law is that then ?

Which law is that then ?

The Law which states that

Every worker in the United Kingdom has the right to work in an environment free from harassment and protected from discrimination based on age, race, religion, gender, sexual orientation and disability status (at the very least). Discrimination is defined as an employer treating one employee less favourably than another.

To deny someone a job because they are 'too fat', means you would have to prove their fatness would prevent them from doing a job. If this was the case, then it might imply that they had a disability. Which you can't legally discriminate against without good reason. There is no specific piece of legislation that says you have to employ a fat person, but to openly not employ someone who is fat would get you into a whole load of legal shit, I'd imagine. Human Rights act would probably come into it.

Of course, in the real world, you as an employer can employ who you consider to be the 'best candidate for the job'. That is of course at the employer's discretion.

1) An interviewee is not an employee.
2) Simply being obese is not a disability under the terms of the act.
3) Treating all candidates the same way in an interview process is not discrimantory.

Therefore it is perfectly legitimate to consider the obeseness or otherwise of a candidate, as an issue, perhaps quantifying it by simply requesting or even measuring their BMI, as opposed to a subjective judgement, and setting a target value that you would like to achieve in your recruitment, based on NHS stats for example.

So thats you talking absolute shite yet again then.

Thought so! 8)

(Boils my piss when Daily Mail type mentalities make up laws to defend some issue or other they've made up to project their often flawed views.)

Incline to agree with you BB... the word 'medical' springs to mind. Pretty sure a good few employers make this a compulsory part of the recruitment process.

Ta

It was frequently the case in the past that a medical would form part of a recruitment process, and not unreasonably IMHO.

Another way of dealing with this sort of thing, and for that matter criminal records if it concerns an employer is to ask everyone interviewed questions like "have you ever been in trouble with the Police?" or Do you have any existing medical problems?" with simple Yes or No answers. If that answer is subsequently found to be incorrect the employee has in fact committed a criminal offence which is "Gaining pecuniary advantage through deception", if you can prove that you would not have employed them if they had answered correctly. It is also why it is important to have a spec sheet quantifying what you are looking for and to keep that and all application forms from a recruitment against future problems arising.

Thats does get past the rehabilitation of offenders act, and the disability discrimination laws, as long as you apply it uniformly to all applicants.

So thats you talking absolute shite yet again then.

Thought so!

(Boils my piss when Daily Mail type mentalities make up laws to defend some issue or other they've made up to project their often flawed views.)

I could dig up all sorts of bits of Law to prove my point, but I really can't be bothered. 'Daily Mail type'? 😆

Therefore it is perfectly legitimate to consider the obeseness or otherwise of a candidate, as an issue, perhaps quantifying it by simply requesting or even measuring their BMI, as opposed to a subjective judgement, and setting a target value that you would like to achieve in your recruitment, based on NHS stats for example.

So, you'd be legally able to request such information from a prospective employee, would you? On what grounds? Ever heard of Medical Confidentiality? What if the person refused to give it to you? And you refused them a job because of that?

Go and research it. Unless the job required certain levels of fitness/condition, you'd not be legally allowed to demand such information. Same as you aren't, as an employer, allowed to have access to any person's medical information without their consent.

So, were you to refuse someone a job on medical grounds, which in this case it would be, without any evidence to support your case, you'd be ****ed.

Imagine it like this: You have an employee, that you don't like because they are 'too fat', in your eyes. Nothing to do with their ability to do their job. You fire them for being 'too fat'. How well d'you think you'd do, in an employment tribunal?

As I said; you can employ who you want; you can't use their fatness as an excuse not to. Just pretend there's a better candidate, that's all.

You can have any criteria you like as long as its not discriminatory. Applying something uniformly to all candidates that does not breach any law is not. Simple

Do you actually know what it takes to calculate BMI? Its weight and height. That is not confidential medical information.

I could dig up all sorts of bits of Law to prove my point

No you can't, as you proved yesterday.

'Daily Mail type'?

Yeah, you know the sort, makes stuff up to make a case?

Go and research it.

Oh I think you will find that I'm on very solid ground, and I'm not really sure why I should if you're not prepared to.

You have an employee, that you don't like because they are 'too fat', in your eyes

You don't seem to be able to spot the fundamental difference between an employee and a prospective employee. I have pointed it out, but you seem to have missed it.

You fire them for being 'too fat'

You are probably right, but thats not we are talking about is it?

How about instead I use BMI as a criteria for selection for redundancy, and as an organisation we take the NHS's stats on health issues relating to BMI and then as part of the redundnacy process use BMI being into the Obese or into dangerously low areas as part of a selection process, how do you think that might be?

TM is not a daily mail type, that much is obvious!

The entire England rugby squad's BMI means their obese - fire them all!

I'm just into "overweight" yet under 9% bodyfat and sub 30" waist.

Anyway it depends on the job - the best freelance writer I know and regularly with with is overweight - so what?

Berm; you really want me to be wrong, don't you, to justify your prejudice?

See, the thing is, if you're going to use 'medical' reasons to employ or not employ someone, then you have to back them up. You can't just weigh them and measure their height. Many people have a high BMI, but are not obese. Many people have a low BMI, and aren't healthy. Your argument is based on the fact that you don't like fat people, and you're introducing things such as BMI to back your case up. The BMI is merely a guideline, and not an indicator of overall health.

[url= http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/data_protection/practical_application/coi_html/english/employment_practices_code/part_4-information_about_workers_health_2.html ]Here's some info for you.[/url]

[url= http://www.staffcom.org.uk/pdfs/17326%20Makeup%203.pdf ]1.3 An employer may stipulate essential health requirements but may need to justify doing so, and to show that it would not be reasonable for him to have to waive them, in any individual case (page 33, para 5.5).
1.4 Stating that a certain personal, medical or health-related characteristic is desirable may also lead to discrimination if the characteristic is not necessary for the performance of the job.
[/url]

Face it; you don't like fat people, and you'd love it if the Law would support you in your prejudice. It doesn't.

Anyway it depends on the job - the best freelance writer I know and regularly with with is overweight - so what?

Thats not really the point, the OP is about whether it would be reasonable for people not to employ someone because they were overweight. My take on it is that its not unreasonable to have that as a criteria in a selection process. So say for example there are two of your mates, one obese, one not then the BMI obese criteria kicks in as part of an objective selection and decision making process.

And the "so what" is that its not doing him or anyone else any favours pretending that its not a serious health issue. Maybe, just maybe by not pretending otherwise it might help them rather than hinder.

a picture of berm bandit hard at work
[img] [/img]

BB - don't get me wrong, I don't "get" obesity and have been a fitness obsessive (with a fair few medals and trophies for various physical activities) since my early teens but in some jobs it simply doesn't matter.

Employing an obese football referee or similar could be silly though.

The Forces have a fat nazi selection process (I've done the RM POC and passed it) - they seem to be "allowed."

Depends on the job.

I was on a flight last year and the stewardess had a right fat behind that kept knocking me as she moved up and down the aisle.

Now for stewardesses I would think that having a petite ass is essential and they should have some width limits applied, certainly from a safety point of view. Perhaps something like a narrow door to the interview room, if you're too wide then move aside.

Your argument is based on the fact that you don't like fat people

Out of interest, I have maintained myself comfortably in the Obese segment for the last 35 years 😯 So I think you might be a tad wide of the mark and dare I say stereotyping slightly.

In respect of this:-

1.4 Stating that a certain personal, medical or health-related characteristic is desirable may also lead to discrimination if the characteristic is not necessary for the performance of the job.

You appear to have missed this out, which is the complete statement.

Like a requirement, a preference may be decisive against an otherwise well qualified disabled candidate and may have to be justified in an individual case (page 33,para 5.6.Summarised)

And as stated above the selection criteria must be applied to all candidates equally. So unless you are trying to tell me that a function of disability is automatic obeseness, I fail to see how you can work out that this would be discriminatory towards disabled people.

I am however starting to wonder about your attitude. This is starting to sound a lot like the argument about race which starts with "I've got a mate whose black but.....".

Out of interest, I have maintained myself comfortably in the Obese segment for the last 35 years So I think you might be a tad wide of the mark and dare I say stereotyping slightly.

Not unusual for those with prejudices, for those prejudices to apply to themselves. Would you exclude yourself from a job where your weight is not an issue? What If I ran a pub, and barred you from coming in, because you're too fat? Would you be happy then?

You appear to have missed this out, which is the complete statement.

Irrelevant, as the bit I quoted applies to all. You're just trying to clutch at straws here, 'cos you know your argument's flawed.

I am however starting to wonder about your attitude. This is starting to sound a lot like the argument about race which starts with "I've got a mate whose black but.....".

Yeah, whatever mate. You've got no ammo left, so you try to turn it into an attack my character. Nice try.

Bored now. Argument done. Finished.

END OF THREAD

Yeah, whatever mate. You've got no ammo left, so you try to turn it into an attack my character. Nice try.

Bored now. Argument done. Finished.

END OF THREAD

PMSL....

au contraire mon petit potiron....

I believe that statement is equivalent to that of which you accuse me.

Thus I shall sleep content knowing that victory, (if indeed that what it is), is mine. 8)

I know a guy who is 22 stone and diabetic, constantly having treatment to feet and health problems but got his degree and works in a lab in the NHS and has a great brain.

Costly maybe in sick days but he's not lying like some out there and provides a service and great at stats.

His diet is terrible -takeaway currys everyday... I got him riding on a steel bike but he gave it up as it was too hard without trying but getting him to ride to work in his own time.

I personally think he's depressed from being diabetic, insulin injections, single-never ever had a diet or a GF and obese and eats more.

I think he should have the chance to better himself but if he becomes lazy and fails to do his job then no like anyone else, the job should be given to someone who can do it to the criteria required for the job duties.

Would you not hire a wheelchair user?