There is more to the union than politics, however if we stick to that then I am genuinely frightened. We have recently seen the mob handed approach and vindictive justice dealt out to opponents of the yes campaign. A first minister that refuses to condemn mob rule outright. I worry that reasonable people are being fooled by a leader that hides an anti English sentiment with chubby jovial charm.
[quote=athgray ] We have recently seen the mob handed approach and vindictive justice dealt out to opponents of the yes campaign.
Could you be a little less vague?
Any evidence whatsoever to backup that character assessment?I worry that reasonable people are being fooled by a leader that hides an anti English sentiment with chubby jovial charm.
This interview should be considered a national embarrassment. The last comment is priceless! Nothing statesmanlike about the man, just a sense of parochial chippieness.
LOL - that's the best reason you can come up with for retaining the Union? Farage is a complete dick and deserved all the heckling he got from a crowd that included at least two Englishmen amongst its ringleaders.
Who, in reality, gives a flying **** what the orange order thinks?
+1, and no, I support their team too!!!
Okay, maybe you should explain why I should be embarrassed? He's right - Farrage got heckled because he's an odious man, and tried to turn it into a "Scots hate me because I'm English" story, which was bollocks.
And, again, what does liking Alex Salmond or not have to do with independence?
No scotroutes. My wife and kids are better reasons. However if politics is your game then the man above is a good start. He could potentially be our first prime minister. I think Farage is a dick also but you have no right to say who should have a voice in this country. It is also nice of you to point out the nationality of the crowd. It really did not cross my mind.
[i]Of course you can just go down the coastal defence force line with the sole intent of defending coastline (fishery protection etc) and if it really goes belly up phone yer mates just the other side of your southern border.[/i]
We wouldn't really need to call would we - as neither the US, UK-rump, Europe nor NATO would allow any 'infiltration' towards their 'space'.
All Scotland needs is coastal protection and search/rescue - so neither big ships, jets, tanks nor any of the big expensive hardware. Just spend any money on folk, so also keeping down unemployment.
If I was the yes vote I would pay for farage to do a tour tbh
[quote=athgray ]No scotroutes. My wife and kids are better reasons. So, explain why independence would be bad for them.
Sorry - it was you that started with the supposed anti-English sentiments.It is also nice of you to point out the nationality of the crowd. It really did not cross my mind.
Step back from the edge. We are Not voting for one particular person. We are voting for our future.
The MoD are now planning to keep Faslane if Scotland becomes independent:
Athgray that was how this thread started. A story Cameron was quick to deny but still one that came from the UK government typical of the better together campaign so far in that it has sought to alarm people with stories some of which have no basis in fact.
My point about the Union Jack was that it's rhe UK flag should any one of the member countries leave the UK as it was will no longer exist. Something else may take it's place maybe some sort social union under the same monarch. You might even call it the United Kingdom but it will be different from the current UK.
I want my family to live in a democracy where peoples views can be listened to and rejected at the ballot box even if they are a dick. This seems not to be your idea of democracy. It seems that my family will also have to be well versed in Scots and Doric terms to be allowed to express a political opinion.
I want my family to live in a democracy where peoples views can be listened to and rejected at the ballot box even if they are a dick.
what like a referendum that sort of thing?
This seems not to be your idea of democracy.
I dont even know who that fallacy is aimed at
It seems that my family will also have to be well versed in Scots and Doric terms to be allowed to express a political opinion.
Its pretty hard to debate as it seems to be driven by emotive arguments with little basis in fact
Good luck scotsroutes
I want my family to live in a democracy where peoples views can be listened to and rejected at the ballot box even if they are a dick.
How's the Wesminster parliament working right now, do you think? Scots haven't decided the outcome of a general election since before WWII at least - it doesn't matter how we vote, we don't have any effect on the government that rules over us.
So explain how independence would make that situation worse?
[quote=Junkyard ]
Good luck scotsroutes
😆
That's not much to ask Athgray I don't believe civil liberties are really in danger from the yes campaign , ,the snp or even from Alex Salmond ..Mr Farage is another matter . However I do believe he has the right to express his view no matter how half baked and offensive it is.
No single area of a few million voters will ever decide a general election, other than in a few swing constituencies. You could probably say the same about nearly every other area of the UK. Scotland has had great influence at Westminster over the years. Let's not forget that one Scottish born Prime Minister took us to war in Iraq ably followed up by the next Scottish Prime Minister, all based on false claims 'sexed up' by a Yorkshire born self proclaimed Scot, all belonging to a party we overwhelmingly brought to power. The annoying thing is we have the gallus to effectively claim it was someone else's fault. The SNP are amongst the worst to always twist events to suit their agenda.
If we are independent someone else will be the bad guy, just on a more marginalised scale.
No single area of a few million voters will ever decide a general election, other than in a few swing constituencies
True but however you dress this up Scotland ] and Wales] is not at all Tory but will end up getting Tory led government from time to time.
This will never happen with independence as the few million voters will decide a general election
PS you were arguing
I want my family to live in a democracy where peoples views can be listened to and rejected at the ballot box even if they are a dick.
You seem to now accept that the Union cannot deliver this.
The SNP are amongst the worst to always twist events to suit their agenda.
To be fair you have done exactly that by suggesting that Scotland is responsible for Tony Blair becoming PM and apparently the Iraq War.
It was a statement of fact Ernie, but if you won't give me that one then can I have the other three? Also, does not change the SNP comment.
Voting for independence isn't voting for the SNP.
To be fair you have done exactly that by suggesting that Scotland is responsible for Tony Blair becoming PM and apparently the Iraq War.POSTED 12 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
athgray - Member
It was a statement of fact Ernie
No single area of a few million voters will ever decide a general election
Right so they both did it and yet an area of that size cannot do it
Junkyard.
I have previously said that I think that Holyrood works well. Not going into depth I think West Minster can learn a thing or two from it. I still hang on the hope that things can change there. I just do not like the idea that a line will be drawn that despite what anyone says will divide. There are no guarantees on currency, Europe, Defence, Monarchy, media and a whole range of things that may be different between two countries that I see are the same. I like the being part of a Greater Union that for better or worse puts us on a larger stage. I understand many on here may disagree as is their right.
I take it nobody else from the No camp is on tonight?
I like the being part of a Greater Union that for better or worse puts us on a larger stage
I think I see why Farage was here
To add to what I say above, I feel we are in this together, and any problems that may be encountered along the way can be fixed together. I do not wish to see a line drawn from Gretna to Berwick that may end up sending what I consider to be the same country down two different paths.
Sorry Junkyard, I may be dim, but you have lost me??
[quote=athgray ]There are no guarantees on currency, Europe, Defence, Monarchy, media and a whole range of things that may be different between [b]two countries[/b] that I see are the same.
[quote=athgray ]what I consider to be [b]the same country[/b] down two different paths.Which is it?
athgray - MemberI want my family to live in a democracy where peoples views can be listened to and rejected at the ballot box even if they are a dick.
Whenever I think about democracy in the UK, I think about the fact that my country is ruled by a bunch of tory bawbags, then I think about all the tory MPs that we voted in. Oh, did I say MPs plural? Ooops.
I tried that scotroutes Best of luck
Irony does not work either
Northwind that is because a country of Scotlands size cannot determine the govt except for when it determines the governemnt
The first quote scotroutes is taken based on the situation post independance, hence two countries.
The second quote is what I believe the situation should be now. Read again please. I am trying to be positive about the union in the face of pedantry although I sense there isn't much love for it here.
Did nobody enjoy the Olympics last year?
Northwind I have a Tory Prime Minister and an SNP first minister. Life can be a s*****r eh?
[quote=athgray ]The first quote scotroutes is taken based on the situation post independance, hence two countries.
The second quote is what I believe the situation should be now.
Got you. So why not one country, one government? Is it that you believe a Scottish Government isn't capable of taking all decisions for the people of Scotland? If you are in favour of larger unions, where do you stand on the possible withdrawal of the UK from Europe?
Oh, incidentally,
bencooper - MemberHow's the Wesminster parliament working right now, do you think? Scots haven't decided the outcome of a general election since before WWII at least
64 and 74, apparently. Oh and 2010- take away Scotland and the Tories would have had an absolute majority, which probably wouldn't have made an awful lot of difference to them but would at least have stopped the Lib Dems from turning to the dark side.
A better stat, I reckon, is that the last time the Tories had a majority in Westminster and in Scotland was 1959.
To answer that honestly scotroutes I would think that a withdrawal from Europe would be a bad thing and the potential outcomes depending on the two referendums are complex and of paramount importance.
I have enjoyed this robust disagreement, and will keenly follow this thread, but will sit on my hands as it has gone well off topic largely down to myself . Look forward to continuing this subject when it reappears. Good night all.
My point about the Union Jack was that it's rhe UK flag should any one of the member countries leave the UK as it was will no longer exist. Something else may take it's place maybe some sort social union under the same monarch. You might even call it the United Kingdom but it will be different from the current UK.
It will probably carry on being called the UK. It will probably carry on flying the union flag. Most people probably wouldn't even notice the difference.
Interesting though that this fiercely independent state-to-be is planning on being a leech on the UK and Europe in terms of defence. Especially interesting given the UK's recent history of invading countries for oil. We wouldn't even need any aircraft carriers to invade Scotland 😆
this sort of crap makes me value my simple low paid low skill no thinking simple life. At least I have things to worry about in the here and now, so I don't have to get stressed about the big things. Cos If I had a job getting stressed about the big things. I don't think I could cope! I have a certain understanding, but y'know, **** the stuff you can't control! I am having a real problem with coming to terms with the truth of "**** the stuff you can't control". then it is easier I think.
A referendum [i]is[/i] something you can control.
Zokes An independent Scotland is not planning to be a leech on anyone. The defence budget according to yes campaign figures would be between 2.8 and 3.3 billion. Exact figures would depend on which party was returned to government post referendum.
If you are planning on invading anyone. ......you did try that before 😆
Zokes An independent Scotland is not planning to be a leech on anyone.
Really?
You intend to join in with NATO yet not hold a major part of its defences...
You intend to join the EU, where likely you will be a net receiver...
Ben, what really is the issue (with your OP)? The stance of the SNP has been repeated recently by Sturgeon and is unequivocal (no bargaining, no Trident etc). Given that she and AS are among the most able politicians in the UK and have had years to examine these complex issues in far more detail than the rest of us, we can be sure that how this relates to Nato membership has been properly examined. So this leaves the rest of the UK and the MoD with a serious issue ie, the real (if Sturgeon is to be believed) prospect of a non-functioning nuclear deterrent for many years, that needs to be addressed. Along with rapid or gradual withdrawal, other locations and/or the idea of remaining in Falsane are options that should be investigated fully by them as well and as a matter of urgency IMO. What then is the issue?
You intend to join in with NATO yet not hold a major part of its defences...You intend to join the EU, where likely you will be a net receiver...
So if they were planning to leave NATO and the EU you would think this was a better move 😕
Seems to me you would spin it either way
As for the EU I doubt Scotland will gain that much from them given the poorer Eastern states and is more likely to be a giver tbh
the real (if Sturgeon is to be believed) prospect of a non-functioning nuclear deterrent for many years, that needs to be addressed. Along with rapid or gradual withdrawal, other locations etc, the idea of remaining in Falsane is one option that should be investigated fully by them as well. What then is the issue?
I would imagine they would use this "need" as a a very useful bargaining tool in the complicated and protracted negotiations.
If we cannot have the pound you cannot have a base type mexican stand off in order to drive a hard bargain
I would imagine they would like having them over a barrell on that one personally in any negotiation situation
Westminster warnings that the bill for ridding an independent Scotland of Trident would run into billions have been undermined by revelations that the UK Government previously put the cost at £150 million.
Of course, that's £150m to decommission Trident and everything associated with it. I'd say that gives a decent starting point for any negotiations. "[i]Here's £15m as Scotlands contribution to removing Trident from Faslane[/i]"
So if they were planning to leave NATO and the EU you would think this was a better move
They wouldn't be direct leeches, so in the context of the point I was making, yes.
True JY, which is why I question the "able bit". This was the point made (ie the bargaining chip) by a SNP candidate in the FT. Maybe Sturgeon is beyond that kind of thing (no bargaining are her words) and is a politician of principle!?! The SNP candidate quoted by the FT seems cut out of the more traditional cloth however.
Frankly, the give-away recently is when the SNP try to hide behind the "Westminster is trying to bully the Scots" argument. This card is usually played when their lack of joined-up thinking (EU, £, Central Banks etc) has been exposed. So my gut feel is that this is another issue that needs to be resolved properly. Hence, it is good IMO that Faslane is bought correctly into open debate.
zokes - what countries in NATO aren't "leeches" then? Just the UK and the US?
What then is the issue?
The issue was the presumptive way it was assumed that annexing part of another country to store nuclear weapons would be acceptable.
Sure, something will need to be worked out. They won't be able to leave Faslane right away. But they will be the responsibility of the RUK to deal with - if the RUK wants them, the RUK can pay for storing them.
