The MoD are now planning to keep Faslane if Scotland becomes independent:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/10/mod-trident-scotland-independence
Is this the moment the Better Together campaign officially lost the plot? I'm beginning to think they want to lose the referendum.
Simple making plans just in case. However maybe it is time to boot the whinging kid out of the family home. See how long before the come back asking for more pocket money or to be let back in.
I hear Edinburgh is planning to do the same as it's mostly full of 'The English' anyway. 😉 (me included)
Our very own guantanamo 🙂
Maybe we could let the Scots have a reciprocal arrangement with Scotch Corner...
Stoner - Member
Our very own guantanamo
You never been to Cyprus - we've got 2 Sovereign Base Areas there already... Had our own Gitmo-style enclaves since Cyrpiot independence in the 60s, much longer than those Johhny Come Lately Yanks!
Hmmmm but is it just faslane as in the naval base with the subs. Or is it the interesting areas of mod real estate around there as well? '
Oh and I know it's a terrible bore and so not daily mail, but there is a distinction between what mouthy and embarrassing politician want and what a lot if people who live here want.
They'll need Coulport as well - don't think they'd need the bits up Glen Fruin.
Oh and I know it's a terrible bore and so not daily mail, but there is a distinction between what mouthy and embarrassing politician want and what a lot if people who live here want.
I have been in ABZ for the last 10 weeks, I have not met a single adult yet who is going to vote yes for independence. I think this might be because I am hanging around in engineering/oil industry circles, but I was V surprised. I thought I was going to be overwhelmed by a wave of nationalist froth..
Will there be a UN patrolled demilitarised zone around it? I've heard the natives can get a touch aggressive when they've been at the Bucky and fallen under the influence of Australians
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We could swap you for Newcastle.
So long as they continue to maintain the road between gareloch head and loch long because its teh awesomes on the road bike!
As a Jock living in (near) Newcastle - yes please!
Great city - about the only thing wrong with it is that it's the wrong side of the border 😀
I learned to sail at Faslane, back in the day. Fond memories of getting chased away from a nuke sub on its way in by MPs in boats.
Is that the Scottish equivalent of riding your BMX through the local shopping centre? It seems a touch 'high-risk'.
I find it a bit odd that after many hundreds of years of taking, keeping and giving away bits of the planet that aren't ours that this discussion arises now. Surely even the tories couldn't be that stupid!
Who was the source of this story? Wouldn't surprise me if it turns out to be an irritating little flab ball with a fishy name. Game playing on a huge scale - he moans of English arrogance and elitism and then happily puts his fat arse in a comfy chair of the Royal Box of whatever sporting event takes his fancy!
If the Scots go it alone, surely it'd be best to move the subs south? Jobs and investment into a rural coastal area doesn't sound too bad to me.
I'm not remotely surprised. 10's of billions? All political parties would have a tough time swallowing that badboy. It's only fair that the UK gives the scots something in return if it does happen. I volunteer Bridgwater. Really, it's my pleasure.
Does Salmond really want 6,000 extra unemployed people around faslane just for a small political victory? Is that how little he values his voters and fellow scots?
Does Salmond really want 6,000 extra unemployed people around faslane just for a small political victory? Is that how little he values his voters and fellow scots?
In line with every single other politician, of any colour, I'm pretty sure he couldn't give a flying **** about how many peoples lives and livlihoods are sacrificed at the alter of his gargantuan ego
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Following on from the Newcastle thing, could Northumbria, Co. Durham, Cumbria, Yorkshire and Lancashire join in? We could call it the People's Republic of Scotland and Northern England. That'd be super (and may actually be viable, which a large part of me thinks an independent Scotland wouldn't be).
As for this Faslane, just more Tory fuel to encourage Scotland to clear off with all their Labour/SNP voters and ensure their reign and destruction south of the border. Dirty tactics, as they seem to be using throughout this campaign.
I'd never vote for an independent Scotland, but don't think it'd be the worst thing in the world if it were.
Wouldn't put anything past Salmond, he is the archetypal slimy politician.
Does Salmond really want 6,000 extra unemployed people around faslane just for a small political victory?
Most of those 6,000 would stay, to service the Scottish navy vessels that would be based at Faslane. The proposal is to get rid of the nukes, not close the base.
There's also the small matter of the spare nuclear-powered hunter-killer subs that are currently cluttering up Rosyth because no-one knows what to do with them.
We could call it the People's Republic of Scotland and Northern England. That'd be super (and may actually be viable, which a large part of me thinks an independent Scotland wouldn't be).
I'd vote for that! (but not for independent Scotland)
IME most northerners have more in common with the Scots than they do with southern types.
Does Salmond really want 6,000 extra unemployed people around faslane just for a small political victory?
Perhaps he feels that without Scotland contributing to the £20billion/whatever Trident budget there will be more money available to create socially useful jobs ?
Of course England and Wales could do a runner after dumping the subs at Faslane, the decommissioning and cleaning up would probably bankrupt Scotland.
I'm sure a ready buyer could be found.
If the Scots go it alone, surely it'd be best to move the subs south? Jobs and investment into a rural coastal area doesn't sound too bad to me.
That might prove significantly more difficult than you think. Not only do you have to find somewhere that is deep enough to actually accomodate the subs, but you then also have to convince the locals that having them is a good thing.
That might prove significantly more difficult than you think.
And expensive :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/10/costs-moving-trident-analysis
gonefishin - try telling the 'locals' that about Sellafield, jobs trump NIMBYism in many parts of rural coastline. Abersoch maybe not...
The deep bit is a good point, preferably without too many sandbanks around.
The Trident replacement is going to cost £100bn - £10bn to move them to Milford Haven or wherever isn't that much compared to the total cost of the stupid things.
Of course it'd be much better to scrap the lot and spend the money on stuff we actually need, not willy-waving toys.
I'm sure a ready buyer could be found.
For what - nuclear subs ?
Most countries don't have them because they don't want them, rather than because of lack of availability.
The Trident replacement is going to cost £100bn
Where did you get that from? Even Greenpeace only put it at £34bn.
Countries without nuke subs generally can't afford them. They may be able to pick up some bargains at Gideons car boot sale though. Everyone loves a bargain, don't they?
You include the maintenance costs for 30 years, and the decommissioning costs:
From a Surrey Hills perspective, you can declare it the Independent Republic of the grim North (North being from Watford Gap) if you like, we don't care as we never (admit to) going there.
But there are conditions: 1. Britannia rules the waves, so we get to keep all the offshore oil assets. 2. We are still going to send you all our (and everyone elses) nuclear waste. 3. If you want to get goods to/from mainland europe, the border toll is going to be massive to use our roads (i.e. ransom strip of land) esp. as you you wont be in the EU so we dont have to pretent to be nice to you. 4. Faslane is staying with us - just like the rock (gibralta) and the islands (falklands) - we only gave hong kong back because it was long leasehold, and we are scared of china.
I am still open to other 'Set the revolting northerners free' manifesto suggetions (but from genteel southern intellectuals only). 😈
It's not just about water depth. Coulport is basically a hollowed out mountain where they keep the warheads.
Most of those 6,000 would stay, to service the Scottish navy vessels that would be based at Faslane. The proposal is to get rid of the nukes, not close the base.
Scottish Navy? What will that consist of? Faslane is basically all about the V boats. It has a few little minesweepers but they do not need the massive infrastructure and support that the subs have. You would not need 6000 people to run a small non-nuclear naval base.
Bit ironic that Salmond wants an independent Scotland to join NATO, which is based on a nuclear deterrent, but wants to kick out the local part of that deterrent....
You include the maintenance costs for 30 years, and the decommissioning costs:
well no. You said replacement, not whole life costs.
well no. You said replacement, not whole life costs.
Semantics. Replacing Trident commits us to £100bn costs, whether it's paid up front or later.
gonefishin - try telling the 'locals' that about Sellafield, jobs trump NIMBYism in many parts of rural coastline. Abersoch maybe not...
Oh I agree about Sellafield, people who already know about the nuclear industry (or any other heavy industry for that matter) are more likely to be accepting of it and the wealth it brings. The trouble is that nuclear weapons are a different matter to a power station (in people's minds) and it is unlikely that there is a geologically suitable port for submarines in England that also has existing nuclear facility.
Replacing Trident commits us to £100bn costs
Yeah, but over 30 odd years. Hardly semantics. Anyway, it might not be your problem soon! 😀
Oh I agree about Sellafield, people who already know about the nuclear industry (or any other heavy industry for that matter) are more likely to be accepting of it and the wealth it brings.
Yes - they know the tradeoffs. Rosie's grandfather was a senior engineer at Windscale/Sellafield, and the stories he told would make your hair fall out, but they still lived nearby.
Following on from the Newcastle thing, could Northumbria, Co. Durham, Cumbria, Yorkshire and Lancashire join in? We could call it the People's Republic of Scotland and Northern England.
This +100000000000000
FWIW, the MOD have confirmed that only 520 jobs at Faslane and Coulport are dependent on Trident.
cb - MemberIf the Scots go it alone, surely it'd be best to move the subs south? Jobs and investment into a rural coastal area doesn't sound too bad to me.
Good luck with that. The sort of rampant NIMBYism that exists dahn sarf, that won't permit a wind turbine, far less a high speed rail line, within spitting distance of their holiday home lest it depreciate by a couple of thousand quid, is hardly going to embrace a pollution-leaching nuclear silo with a theoretical Russian crosshairs trained on it the whole time.
We could call it the People's Republic of Scotland and Northern England.
The People's Empire of the North, Ireland and Scotland.
Perhaps the Countries United North of the Thames? 😀
wrecker - MemberPerhaps the Countries United North of the Thames?
Got a certain ring to it.
Perhaps its southern counterpart could be the Thames - We're All Tories - Sub-region.
FWIW, the MOD have confirmed that only 520 jobs at Faslane and Coulport are dependent on Trident.
The MoD are lying, or at the very least using some creative accounting to twist the numbers.
Coulport does absolutely nothing apart from look after the V boats.
A lot of jobs at Faslane will be general port infrastructure and support that you would need regardless. However, without the subs what would you need Faslane for? If you remove them, the size of the port and corresponding number of personnel is way too big for what's there.
