Do we? How?
Too many bees about.
Do people know so little about where their food really comes from? Just on this page:
We need to protect our food producing industry in everyway possible.
Do we just get all our food from other countries?
Presumably they could move the land into a trust, protecting it from IHT and for future generations…
You'll have a big tax bill, every 6 (I think, could be wrong) years or so. Which is why many don't. Theres two trusts in my area (I rent my home and business from one), one is a huge farm with multiple properties (that once would have been for the 'workers'). The other is a small farm, the farmer has no wife or kids so runs it as a trust with his sister.
Neither are what I'd call poor.
The supermarkets won’t swallow the cost, they have shareholders to satisfy and bonuses to pay.
A key factor in my wife's friend closing the family farm. Said she'd sooner supply McDonald's than Tesco in terms of price and animal welfare.
As for the "1000 years" as pointed out above, these exemptions came in under Thatcher. Plenty of estates were split and/or sold off for death duties in the 1970s, when they began to convert to trusts - looking at you, Chatsworth.
Said she’d sooner supply McDonald’s than Tesco in terms of price and animal welfare.
And that's their choice, no one is forcing any business to sell to anyone they don't want to deal with.
And that’s their choice, no one is forcing any business to sell to anyone they don’t want to deal with.
Absolutely. Her choice was to stop farming - barns converted to housing, land rented/sold to neighbours.
Our senior account manager was bidding on a tesco contract, and was just totally exasperated by it, he said they were total ball busters on price, T&C’s, attitude etc,
I once worked for a company that was quoting to clean their car parks. They wanted a cost per store, fine. But they wanted the cost splitting down further, to per parking space.
‘Do you have the details of how many spaces per store?’
‘No’
’Can you get that information?’
’No’
The sales admin team had to count them, using Google earth
We need to protect our food producing industry in everyway possible.
TBF I'd be more interested in protecting them if they actually made food
Agricultural Property Relief was introduced in 1984 because that was when Inheritance Tax was introduced, there were reliefs under the Capital Transfer Tax, its predecessor. I think it might have been said already but other family businesses can be passed down free of inheritance tax because of Business Property Relief. The tax expert interviewed by the Rest is Money is a lawyer, I have used many tax lawyers over the years and my experience is that doing numbers isn't a core competence.
"Why can’t covenants be attached to land passed from parent to child that if that enhanced value is ever realised (say you sell off a field for a new estate, or if the ‘investor’, or ‘investor’s beneficiary, who is holding farmland to avoid IHT wants to liquidate that investment), then the Treasury gets its slice at that point?"
They could be (lots of forest parcels are so covenanted) but obviously none of the famers want to render their land worthless!
As for the “1000 years” as pointed out above
Most of them also acquired their land rather later in the early modern and beginning of the modern period when the common land got enclosed.
Plenty of estates were split and/or sold off for death duties in the 1970s,
Although quite a few got to use national land fund and other measures where the repurposed National Trust (always fun seeing the nutters shout and rave about how the NT should stick to looking after stately homes when that wasnt its original purpose) was used so the families could continue to live in their stately homes whilst avoiding inheritance tax etc.
Perhaps you would like to consider the view of a Cumbria hill farmer who is not an owner of huge tracts of fertile arable land and has spent years transforming his farming into a more ecological system.
James Rebanks here
@herdyshepherd1 on X.
Do the new tax break rules for farmers affect him more negatively than the old ones? Do they make it harder for him to do his work? Do they make it less likely that his work will carry on in some form after he is gone?
"Just for clarity… our farm value is under the IHT threshold and we aren’t wealthy in other ways… So I’m not a wealthy tax dodger I’m protesting because I think major progressive promises to farmers are being broken and this budget was the last (not the first act) in the play"
https://twitter.com/herdyshepherd1/status/1858497079011652061
I heard that it was unwise to hand down to your 35 year old child at when you’re 65 because there’s a chance they could get divorced,
Whereupon as it was an inheritance it wouldn't be included in any division of assets. If they subsequently marry it can be included as a prenup.
So I’m not a wealthy tax dodger I’m protesting because…
… it’s surprisingly easy to get normal people to cheer on tax advantages for the very rich, if you can encourage some kind of fake joint identity.
If the tax changes have been designed not to hit the normal farmer, but start to redress some of the long standing baked in inherited wealth and inequality in the UK, while also preventing rich entrants to farming to use land as a wealth bank yet avoid wealth taxes such as inheritance tax… perhaps a better response would be to welcome the changes and argue for other help for real farmers doing everything they can to make a living out of farming.
I’m surprised it’s as high as 15p in the £1 goes to the grower. The article makes for an eloquent read but anything that is money from taxpayers to a business is either a contract to provide something or a subsidy. If it’s the former and it costs more to do than you are paid then stop doing it. It’s an optional scheme. A contract with payments for delivery. I still don’t understand why farmers think they are special. The world has moved on since the end of ww2
perhaps a better response would be to welcome the changes and argue for other help for real farmers doing everything they can to make a living out of farming.
As you will have read in the article he is concerned not so much by the taxation implications of recent governments' announcements but by their inability to deliver on schemes and promises.
recent governments’ announcements but by their inability to deliver on schemes and promises.
Would that have anything to do with the loss of EU money since brexit? [insert smileyBruceForsythe.jpg]
double post - ignore
Let's assume farming should continue. Who should do it? Which model is going to best deliver on the things people in this thread care about?
1. Owning farmer
2. Tenant farmer
3. Companies i.e. agribusiness
4. Citizen collectives
5. Public sector and their subcontractors
Ignore - wrong thread
Farmer on Radio 2 today " i only make 12k a year" from a £10 million pound Farm... what the Farmer meant was after all my subsistence Costs (home vehicles all bills) I only made £12k disposable. I live among them and they still buy land at more than £10k an acre then stand in the pub and moan they can't make it pay..... full of manure.
Farmer on Radio 2 today " i only make 12k a year" from a £10 million pound Farm... what the Farmer meant was after all my subsistence Costs (home vehicles all bills) I only made £12k disposable. I live among them and they still buy land at more than £10k an acre then stand in the pub and moan they can't make it pay..... full of manure.
I thought STW was full of socialists? They see themselves as doing a vocation and custodians of the land, its been handed down through generations.
I don’t mean to be rude, but that isn’t socialism.
Amazing how the farmers have suddenly decided that it’s all gone to shit and they have to march on London after a few weeks of a Labour govt, when they were fine with it for a decade of Tory Brexit swivel-eyed lunacy.
@snotrag Ha. Did wonder if someone would share Sky News ‘take’ on the story that landed in the middle of my brothers shift! Ironically, he used to be a farmer before he became a news anchor!
Farmer on Radio 4 claiming that land value is through the roof.
Well sell some and pay your bill.
Claiming a return of 0.5% on farm value.Then the business model is broken. No other business asset can return so little and be viable.
Isn't that the point? The business isn't viable if you have to buy the land, or if you've got an extra few £100000's to pay IT on.
So sell up and do something else with your life.
I don't believe that the land price across the whole of the UK can be supported entirely by speculation that it will be built on.
An asset is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
Why is the land so valuable?
If it's only valuable because of being a vehicle to avoid IHT, then that is gone and the book price can be corrected.
If that's not the case, what is the high value based on?
Is it too soon yet for the IHT announcement to start impacting land prices?
Based on the current weather in London I suspect that the expected turnout by the Tommy Robinson Fan Club to be no more than a damp squib.
Which if my suspicions are correct will be rather ironic..... beaten by the good ol' British weather.
Its sure this isn't representative of all farmers but the small family owned ones I've noticed where I walk doggo are dumping slurry straight into the local river (seen the tankers with hoses discharging), burning silage poly wrap, dumping building waste in spoil heaps, driving the building waste tractors with no regards for other road users and generally have farms that look like something from the set of MadMax.
The ones that have diversified or bought them for tax reasons (eg. local brewery has a rare breeds pig farm) are spotless and look to be far better run because I'm guessing they don't need to make a profit.
An interesting article on the bbc website this morning
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o
It suggests that in reality the IHT threshold for farmers after the budget is actually £3m assuming not tax planning and it only affected around 100 farms in a year. I’m sure with some simple planning that could be much lower
12K profit a year is not a lot when you are putting so much capital in, a grand a month - i bet you wouldnt be saying that to someone who scimps and is able to save that as an employee, also are you saying that he should be able to make a profit and be able to have hobbies, holidays new clothes etc - are we now dictating the terms of how much a farmer should reasonably be able to make -are we dictating what consititues work, or how many hours they should do a week.
I find some of the reposnses baffling, almost as though it comes from jealousy and bitterness that how dare someone have something that i dont. The proposals will only make [cash] rich people richer as they will buy the land at reduced value (because the tax cannot be raised) and that will go to larger estates where they are happy to pay 20% on value and not 40% on their earnings.
I also heard an argument about how it's impossible fo new people to get into farming becuase the land is so expensive - yes, becuase of land owners, not farmers. So their view is that the 20% IHT was a good thing as it would force people to sell the lives just so someone else can 'have a go' - becuase we all know starting a new farm is mega easy!
All they need to do is hand it on 7 years before they die., which is very straight forward if it's truly a "family business".
There is some absolute nonsense spouted on the radio this morning.
if the business model is as bad as they say, why would you inflict it on the next generation?
Surely Clarkson attending this protest is doing more harm than good. He openly bought it to avoid tax according to The Times article "Jeremys latest plaything"
"Land is a better investment than any bank can offer. The Government doesn’t get any of my money when I die."
All they need to do is hand it on 7 years before they die., which is very straight forward if it’s truly a “family business”.
Are there different rules for farmers than the rest of us. If I pass on something to my kids then I can't have a beneficial interest from it- eg, passing on a rental flat means I can't receive rent from it, but I can't live in it rent free either. If a farmer passes on his farm, then presumably he can't receive any income from it, or even live rent free in any house that's part of the farm, or have I got this bit wrong?
Yes the limit is pretty high, this is from the Government page. I’m from a farming background I know how hard farming is and now hard they work but this is about landowners and the rich trying to avoid tax. It’s not about punishing farmers.
Are there different rules for farmers than the rest of us. If I pass on something to my kids then I can’t have a beneficial interest from it- eg, passing on a rental flat means I can’t receive rent from it, but I can’t live in it rent free either. If a farmer passes on his farm, then presumably he can’t receive any income from it, or even live rent free in any house that’s part of the farm, or have I got this bit wrong?
Nope, you've got it right - different rules to the rest of us.
ernielynch
Full Member
Based on the current weather in London I suspect that the expected turnout by the Tommy Robinson Fan Club to be no more than a damp squib.
Very dependent upon whether the swastikas are drawn on with felt tip or Sharpie.; -)
I would apologise for going ot but the far right element of the post has been subverted by you 'orrible lot! lol
