[Closed] 'Fantasy' books; why are they (generally) massive?

The real world generally requires less in the way of description.

e.g. You can accurately describe a huge German Shepherd dog in a few words and readers will immediately understand, because they've seen one before.

Not so easy to describe an Ent or a Taheen.

Big letters?

Big letters?

Quite the opposite, tiny, dense print.

They are to used as weapons for when the zombie apocalypse comes.

If you look at Pratchet, his books are quite condense, because while "fantastical" his characters and story lines are also quite grounded, kind of just caricatures of reality.

Where as most fantasy writers (Tolken, Rowling etc) just stuff their books with gobbledygook and nonsense to disguise the lack of real creativity.

I reckon it's because the readers generally have a lot of spare time on their hands, for one reason or another.

I think mainly because the fantasy is a bit of an immersion thing....

My view is that this is a direct result of the success of George RR Martin's Game of Thrones books and the like.

I think publishers saw that readers wouldn't be turned off by long, rambling dense books in the genre and instead they could save on the costs of editing AND make money by publishing huge tomes with multiple volumes.

That's led to the proliferation of GOT-alike fantasy and sci-fi books over the last few years.

I am a big sci-fi fan, and I enjoy modern fantasy (stuff like Neil Gaiman, China Mieville etc) and the increasing numbers of these "book six in the Gruntsnuffler cycle" sorts of books really gets on my wick, not least because much of it is derivative but mainly because it crowds out other (more deserving!) books on the shelves. I think publishers churn it out because it makes money (cf also the 'Twilight' teenfic/vampire/horror effect).

My kingdom for a ruthless editor!

My view is that this is a direct result of the success of George RR Martin's Game of Thrones books.

It's hardly a new phenomenon though; there have been enormous books with a picture of a dragon and a scantily-clad elf/goddess/wood-nymph on the cover for years and years

My view is that this is a direct result of the success of George RR Martin's Game of Thrones books

Game of Thrones - 1996
The Lord of the Rings - 1937

Just sayin'

My kingdom for a ruthless editor!

Mainly this. Not enough editors are willing to say "look mate, this is mainly utter bollocks with way too many adjectives", and even where they try the authors and publishers know the readership tends to be generally "undemanding".

My guilty 'literary' pleasure is the Horus Heresy series - 37 books long and counting.... 😳

"look mate, this is mainly utter bollocks with way too many adjectives"

Harry Potter case in point!

Regarding the Game Of Thrones books - was turning it into a TV show the only way they could keep people's attention?

I got bought the first one as a pressie and while it was an OK read, it just went on and on...
I bought the second one just in case my struggle with the first was due to learning the characters and general plot, but nope....the second one was even more like trudging through literary treacle.
I finished it, but didn't read anymore and they've completely put me off watching the show.

"look mate, this is mainly utter bollocks with way too many adjectives"

Harry Potter case in point!

Yeah, look at the way the books just got fatter as the power balance between author and editor shifted. The first couple of books were tight, then they got flabbier and flabbier.

perchypanther - Member
Game of Thrones - 1996
The Lord of the Rings - 1937

Just sayin'

Yes, but the actual LOTR books aren't massive.

Accordingly to a hugely scientific survey I have just carried out by Googling it, the total LOTR series (ex Hobbit) in one collected edition was 1178 pages (the Hobbit, 300 extra). Just the first GOT book was nearly 700! Clash of Kings is 768, and a Dance with Dragons 1040 (thanks, Google!).

Whether or not these are absolutely accurate, it does show that the single volumes are larger in the latter series.

Yeah, look at the way the books just got fatter as the power balance between author and editor shifted. The first couple of books were tight, then they got flabbier and flabbier.

The books get fatter as they are then aimed at progressively older kids... (each book is designed for a year older)

The books get fatter as they are then aimed at progressively older kids

The books got fatter as JK got freer rein to waffle on, the age of the target audience had nothing to do with it.

Where as most fantasy writers (Tolken, Rowling etc) just stuff their books with gobbledygook and nonsense to disguise the lack of real creativity.

Hah.

Tolkein basically invented the genre. It seems derivative now, but that's because much of the genre is derived from it, not the other way round. Tolkein is guilty of a lot of things but lack of creativity is not one of them.

Fantasy books are long because fantasy readers like long books. It's not complicated.

HP books get longer because the series is designed to be read as a kid is growing up, in the same time frame as the kids in the story. They were released one a year so if you read them when they were released you read them in effectively real time. So you read the first one aged 11 and it contains 11 year old stuff and is an 11 year old length, and the last one is for 16 year olds and contains 16 year old stuff.

At least that's what I heard. I haven't read much of them tbh.

I HATE the way sci-fi books are lumped in with all the fantasy crap in book shops. Because of the success of the fantasy stuff on TV and films the sci-fi stuff has been pushed out of the way in most shops, their over bloated tomes full of stupefyingly complex character names and weirdo plots dominated the shelves.

Sci-fi is as different to fantasy as crime is to horror, so why are they always puts together? I'm going to open a sci-fi only shop and if anyone comes in and asked for Harry Potter, GOT or anything even remotely wizardy, hobbity or dragony they will be executed on the spot. 😆

Ah the Horus Heresy. Think I was up to about book 10 when I left GW and lost track. Need to get round to starting again from the beginning...

Ah the Horus Heresy. Think I was up to about book 10 when I left GW and lost track. Need to get round to starting again from the beginning...

The first few are amazing, but I'm still consistently impressed by how they seem to make almost every book seem pivotal in some way. I'm really looking forward to reading the very recent one focussed on the Emperor himself.

Hah.

Tolkein basically invented the genre. It seems derivative now, but that's because much of the genre is derived from it, not the other way round. Tolkein is guilty of a lot of things but lack of creativity is not one of them.

Beat me to it. The bulk of what we think of as dwarfs and elves etc in the modern day are Tolkien inventions.

Interestingly it was published at a similar time to Gormenghast which could be considered the originator of a the other non-elf/goblin leg of the genre...

For Tolkien fans, there was a wonderful play about how he met his wife on R4 on Saturday afternoon - should still be on iPlayer.

Yeah, look at the way the books just got fatter as the power balance between author and editor shifted. The first couple of books were tight, then they got flabbier and flabbier.

Yep, her last two were completely devoid of content, well any more than you could fit on a post-it. 4th one was the best IMO.

This has been something I've grumbled about for years, and while I love a good immersive story that can keep me absorbed for hours, when you see an interesting book that's nearly four inches thick, and it says at the top 'Part One of the Astounding New Trilogy By', a small part of me dies inside.
I've still got loads of SF paperbacks that I bought new back in the early 70's, and I've just checked a few, many are about 1.5cm thick, the bigger ones about 2.5cm, and a really big book like one of Tim Powers, say [i]The Anubis Gates[/i] or [i]On Stranger Tides[/i] are a whopping 4cm! And they're all self-contained stories.
Kate Griffin's 'Matthew Swift' series of six books are each no more than 3-3.5cm thick, depending on whether they're a soft or hardcover, so it can be done.
I think, as johnners says, it's sometimes down to editors allowing the authors to just waffle, Kate Griffin's dad works in publishing, and she also has a good editor, plus she knows when exposition is important, and when you just allow the reader to accept that something is just the way it is in that universe, and drop in small details to throw more light on why those things are the way they are.
With LOTR, it could just as easily been two books, there's an awful lot of just a bunch of people trudging across wastelands doing bugger-all, that should have been excised with no harm to the story.
I haven't read my set since I first read it back in the 70's, and can't see any point in doing so in the future.
I've picked up single volumes of fantasy books that were about the weight of a ream of copier paper, and would probably break a toe if you dropped it on your foot!
I think the rot set in with Stephen R Donaldson's series [i]The Chronicles Of Thomas Covenant[/i], which began as a trilogy, followed by another trilogy, followed by a tetralogy!
There are some series of more than forty books, but they're usually smallish individual volumes.

The first few are amazing, but I'm still consistently impressed by how they seem to make almost every book seem pivotal in some way. I'm really looking forward to reading the very recent one focussed on the Emperor himself.

There was a Humble Bundle a few months back with the first 15 or so books (GW taking part in discounting, madness) so I grabbed them to start again on the Kindle. Didn't mind getting them all as books when I was getting them half price, and as they came out, but now that I've got a massive chunk of them to catch up on, and a lack of shelf space, I'm going with the ebook route. Might start off again with Horus Rising tomorrow.

Some books waffle, some books don't, some thick books have plenty going on, some don't.

And some people like long slow books. You don't see many people criticising Tolstoy for writing long books do you?

Quite like a big fantasy series, but think they're basically impossible to write beyond a certain point without the whole story arc going badly pear-shaped. So they're inevitably disappointing if you stick with them, the story evolves and just structurally gets out of hand.

Best effort I've seen at pulling off a massive overarching narrative is Erikson's Malazan books. He still falls way short of hanging it all together, but makes a heroic try and at a book by book level they're consistently good. Only one poor one out of ten IMHO.
Erikson was phenomenally productive writing those books, which I think must be key. GRRM driving a song of ice and fire off a cliff is 100% down to his inactivity.

Because people buy them.

published at a similar time to Gormenghast

Never could get into Gormenghast, must give it another shot sometime.

I've still got loads of SF paperbacks that I bought new back in the early 70's, and I've just checked a few, many are about 1.5cm thick, the bigger ones about 2.5cm, and a really big book like one of Tim Powers, say The Anubis Gates or On Stranger Tides are a whopping 4cm! And they're all self-contained stories.

Remember when we used to think Dune was massive? I re-read it a few months ago and it struck me that there are just so many ideas and so much happening packed in so economically, at least by modern standards.

With LOTR, it could just as easily been two books, there's an awful lot of just a bunch of people trudging across wastelands doing bugger-all,

I like the 'trudging across the wasteland' bits in LOTR. Wouldn't be the same without it.

all the fantasy crap in book shops

I was in a waterstones a couple of years ago and there were [i]2 aisles[/i] of 'paranormal erotica'- which looks like it takes tripe to whole new levels.

Things that go bump in the night?

And then, to make matters worse, after reading 700 pages of waffle, the final climax is often over in a couple of pages!! This really annoys me (mini rant over).

'paranormal erotica'

Warning: May contain ghoulies.

Because people buy them.

Well, I was wondering this too; is a larger size seen as a mark of quality (ooh err Mrs, etc)?

Can I just say that if newrobdob stands for President, PM, leader of the literary world or anything I'll vote for him. Well said - you can take your wizards, dragons, runes, magic, spells and shove it up your Fantasy aisle. Keep it away from SF.

Darn you CountZero, you got my hopes up that there were more Matthew Swift novels but it looks like you've counted the Magicals Anonymous books in your total!

From reading the occasional blog posts by sci-fi and fantasy authors it is very hard to sell novels in these genres to publishers if there isn't at least a way to expand them into trilogies if sales are reasonable. I presume that sales of sequels are more reliable than sales of original works and unsurprisingly publishing houses prefer safe bets to risk taking when it comes to the bottom line.

And then, to make matters worse, after reading 700 pages of waffle, the final climax is often over in a couple of pages!!

Is that specifically the 'paranormal erotica' genre?

perchypanther - Member
'paranormal erotica'
Warning: May contain ghoulies.

Darn you CountZero, you got my hopes up that there were more Matthew Swift novels but it looks like you've counted the Magicals Anonymous books in your total!

Can I just say that if newrobdob stands for President, PM, leader of the literary world or anything I'll vote for him.

When I'm President I'm going to make newrobdob read The Wheel of Time, all 15 books of them including the really crap ones in the middle 👿

Can I just say that if newrobdob stands for President, PM, leader of the literary world or anything I'll vote for him. Well said - you can take your wizards, dragons, runes, magic, spells and shove it up your Fantasy aisle. Keep it away from SF.

You can be Chancellor if you want..... 😆

newrobdob - Member
I'm going to open a sci-fi only shop and if anyone comes in and asked for Harry Potter, GOT or anything even remotely wizardy, hobbity or dragony they will be executed on the spot.

Let me have the address. I'll be there like a shot.

The reason by the way that scifi and fantasy get put together is that people seem to struggle to tell them apart. People call Star Wars scifi, for goodness sake.

Can I just say that if newrobdob stands for President, PM, leader of the literary world or anything I'll vote for him. Well said - you can take your wizards, dragons, runes, magic, spells and shove it up your Fantasy aisle. Keep it away from SF.

And what happens when customers start complaining that you've got the dystopian future SF mixed in with space opera or alternative realities. SF often has blurred boundaries, often overlapping with fantasy.

Would you allow Vance's Dying Earth series on the shelves? (You wouldn't have my custom if not! 🙂 ) What about Gene Wolfe? Ursula LeGuin?

There is some decent fantasy. There is some decent SF. Unfortunately, most of the good stuff was written over thirty years ago. And fortunately wasn't six inches thick.

Edit: molgrips started the complaining before I got there! 😆

Well said - you can take your wizards, dragons, runes, magic, spells and shove it up your Fantasy aisle. Keep it away from SF.

Banks's Culture books (among others) are full of wizards, magic and spells, in a Clarke's 3rd law sort of way.

Banks's Culture books (among others) are full of wizards, magic and spells, in a Clarke's 3rd law sort of way.

Technically but don't be misleading. It's hard scifi in my opinion. Well.. quite firm, at any rate.

Tolkein basically invented the genre. It seems derivative now, but that's because much of the genre is derived from it, not the other way round. Tolkein is guilty of a lot of things but lack of creativity is not one of them.

I am not sure Tolkein invented gobbledegook, but he certainly popularised it.

You need an ample tome to swat away the school bull/sports captain.

Yeah there's some big fantasy books & collections, there's also plenty of big sci-fi series, a quick scan of my bookshelf and the culture novels, revelation space, Foundation, Hyperion- Endymion, Peter Hamilton as well as the wheel of time, got, first law, riftwar, tolkein . Mieville, still room for brilliant short stories eg phillip k dick, Heinlein, etc

I think I just like big immersive worlds

Same with TV series overtaking movies as the best form of film

I always assumed that because these stories invariably involve at least one character reading some massive old book at some point they made the real world books to suit.