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and got rid of DRS.
Then there would be even less overtaking than there is now. Certainly it's fake (and was designed to be a stop-gap) but if you take away this then you have to design in something to replace push-to-pass that opens it up to allow safe* and effective overtake in formulas as tightly regulated as F1, both Indycar and formula-E both have/need an equivalent
* One of the side benefits to DRS that everyone forgets is that it was also implemented to limit (it clearly hasn't stopped it altogether) the talentless lunge up the inside from 30m back, or the kamikaze late braking attempt that ends up with either drivers in the hospital or the cars having to be rebuilt every race, or both.
If you think F1 is dull – have you ever watched a marathon?
Lifelong runner here, 25 years or so, once was in the Grandstand at the finish line of the London Marathon watching the end of the elite races. The mens elite was a course record and 8 seconds shy of a world record.
Dull as dish water.
whilst it remains a driver and technical team sport, it will always be like this.
All motor "sport" is the same - dull as anything and I'm a bit of a petrolhead. I just can't get excited by any of it... That said, I think watching bike racing is the same.
Think they both suffer from the same thing - its ace to be there, taking part as a driver/rider but it just doesn't translate to being a spectator sport very well.
I think F1 would be better if they stopped pit stops under the safety car
There's some obvious issues there: Car 1 and 2 have a collision resulting in bits of car or other debris on the track. Car 3 picks up some of that debris and gets a puncture OR was due to pit anyway and has dodgy tyres. Can't pit so is "encouraged" to stay out with an unsafe situation or forced to retire needlessly. If the original incident was caused/contributed to by a change in weather it may be particularly likely that forcing cars to stay out is bad.
As it IS a tactical game, the team who can adapt to the emerging situation adds interest to the competition.
and got rid of DRS.
I think the tactics of DRS would be much more interesting if you had a set number of uses per race. Do you want to use one of them now or keep it for later? Has the car behind still got DRS options left and will he use it on me this lap etc.
Think they both suffer from the same thing – its ace to be there, taking part as a driver/rider but it just doesn’t translate to being a spectator sport very well.
I've never been to an F1 race, but I have been to some other motor sport and indeed cycle events - I think just being there as a spectator can be better than the TV experience, although if you want to see the whole event TV is potentially better (golf is similar - there is an ambiance at the big competition which you don't get on telly, but on telly you can actually see what happened). Sailing - despite being a sailor I've never enjoyed watching from shore or on TV.
One of the side-effects of live F1 is (counter intuitively perhaps) is that its much more confusing to watch unless you have circuit commentary - which most have via FM radio broadcasting, as you often get the leaders lapping to quite high up the running order (Verstappen lapped the 11th place finisher at the weekend) and it very quickly ends up with just a mass of cars going around and around...It's loud and noisy at the start, but only after a few laps it becomes surprisingly dull. It's actually much better on telly.
I will say though, once you’ve developed a cost-cap. the vast reams of technical regulations seem on the face of it superfluous. If the tech. regs. are there to stop wealthy teams from spending gazillions to exploit teeny variations of specification through endless testing – then the limit on how much you can spend does that equally well.
If it was up to me, I’d make the technical specs one page (or as close as it can be) and let them have at it
Some of the tech spec is there for safety, to drive towards a slightly more environmentally friendly option or to make for better TV. But regardless of budget, if you remove them, a team will invent a feature and keep it secret whilst dominating the racing and it becomes dull; a cost cap with no tech spec may long term lead to great engineering, but short term will mean some times do stuff that fails and make for poor competition.
if you remove them, a team will invent a feature and keep it secret whilst dominating the racing and it becomes dull
Isn't this essentially the advantage that Red Bull have now though? I'm not sure it's 'secret' in the strictest sense of the word, but they've certainly exploited their advantage to the detriment of the racing spectacle. I agree with what you're saying though, we do need regulation to drive safety innovation or environmental changes, and those regs will need to be tight, but I certainly think that by having a limit on spending places teams in pretty much the same position that the endless minutiae does now.
"a team will invent a feature and keep it secret whilst dominating"
How about an open day? Say twice a year after the end of a race, parc ferme is open season for engineers from other teams to crawl all over the other cars, verniers and camera in hand. The software side would be harder mind. I've seen this happen in particular open class sailing categories. Other teams would go in looking for rule breaches they suspected (poacher come gamekeeper stylee- they were better at looking in dark corners than the official scrutineers) and for specific ideas from the way the opposition performed.
Limit wings/limit downforce/reduce the weight and do away with DRS and everything else follows.
You get lower cornering speeds, more movement so you can see the drivers working at the lower speed and the braking zones are much longer so overtaking is more realistic.
Trouble is that F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport and has to be the fastest or they lose their USP. If you want good racing go watch some classic racing or tin tops but then they're not the best drivers (if you can count F1 drivers as the best given a lot buy their way in).
Personally I'm over F1, there's too many races, too many street circuits, night races are crap and at best should be an occasional novelty, there's too much radio bitching and we don't need to see every detail of of the telemetry. The Yanks obsession with stats is infuriating and it's just become like watching a computer game, which I assume is why the child is so damn good at it.
I'm happy to just watch the F1 highlights and even that seems too long most of the time
How about an open day? Say twice a year after the end of a race, parc ferme is open season for engineers from other teams to crawl all over the other cars, verniers and camera in hand
This is brilliant 👍
Used to love F1 in the 80s, still watch it now but more out of habit than anything. I think it'd be great to see a pre-race lottery to decide who drives which car, but that'll obviously never happen.
I went to see original Beetle Cup racing in the early 90s at Brands Hatch; they were slow comparatively, but it was so thrilling as several cars would have the back end hanging out at once, all going through the same corner, and it was like motorsport ballet. That said, it was fun because the drivers would run out of both grip and talent mid-corner, that's never going to happen at elite levels. Maybe the nature of elite sports means it's destined to be less interesting, Formula Ford is exciting wheel-to-wheel racing, but it's never going to be on TV.
I also think part of the killer for modern F1 is that the cars are now so reliable. I recall several races where most of the front runners would conk out (petrol or mechanicals) on the last lap so it was an unknown who was going to win, right to the flag. But though it was a lottery, it wasn't necessarily down to skill, which I guess it's meant to be.
The problem with most of these ideas is that the teams will never agree to them.
Limit wings/limit downforce/reduce the weight and do away with DRS and everything else follows.
All of the teams struggled to get down to the weight limit of the new rules. The hybrid systems are heavy, but that's there to try and make the sport seem relevant to road cars. The safety rules have added some weight, notably the halo. The larger wheels also added some weight. It's fine to say, "reduce the weight, " but where exactly do people think that the teams can shed 100 kg or more without compromising safety?
Award points for hot lap qualifying - aka fastest driving contest
Then reverse the grid for the main race, award points for finish position, or even positions gained over starting position - aka best racer contest
Combine the points from the two events for the manufacturer competition.
Then reverse the grid for the main race, award points for finish position, or even positions gained over starting position – aka best racer contest
Don't need it .There was eleventy-three overtakes at the weekend, mostly becasue the teams (sometime even individual drivers within teams) were on different tyre strategies. LeClerc on a one-stop, the Mercedes on a one stop (but as it turns out, a two stop) and the racing was interesting exciting and evolving the entire race. It turned out to be the "best car/ driver/strategy/tyre wear/overtaking/under-over cut" competition we've seen in ages - Verstappen still pranced off, untroubled, into the sunset though. 🙄
Then reverse the grid for the main race, award points for finish position, or even positions gained over starting position – aka best racer contest
Also remember F1 teams employ some very smart people - they'd quickly work out the best combination of where to qualify so they can maximise the net result and you end up with people trying to qualify 7th or 8th rather than aiming for the front row and the whole thing becomes a joke. It'd be like that awful time cut off quali they tried a couple of years ago, it sounds good on paper but in practice it falls apart.
To "fix" F1 the best thing to do is to leave the rules alone for a few years. We've always tended to see performance converge as teams get to grips with a set of rules, but by then someone has decided they need new rules, one team does a better job of implementing them and wins a lot and the whole cycle repeats.
If you think F1 is dull – have you ever watched a marathon?
I have watched them in the past from start to finish. I still enjoy watching the whole of a bike race - stage or 1 day (even Milan SanRemo or Paris Roubaix). I like the whole unfolding of the event.
I only watch F1 highlights these days but that's because I'm too tight-fisted to pay up for full coverage.
I think the reminiscing of the olden days is a bit like wanting to go back to mud bath football games or pools panel doing results. We have to move with the times
I do miss the 19000 rpm engines and the noise, maybe even the smell of Castrol R
As for saying it's not proper sport I bet many of the drivers would have been good at any sport they took up
thols2
The problem with most of these ideas is that the teams will never agree to them. All of the teams struggled to get down to the weight limit of the new rules. The hybrid systems are heavy, but that’s there to try and make the sport seem relevant to road cars. The safety rules have added some weight, notably the halo. The larger wheels also added some weight. It’s fine to say, “reduce the weight, ” but where exactly do people think that the teams can shed 100 kg or more without compromising safety?
Tell the teams to come up with a plan to remove 100-150kgs from the car. If it has to go to 13" wheels and no hybrids then great. Shows what bllx it all is. F1 should be leading not following the size and weight gain of passenger vehicles.
As for saying it’s not proper sport I bet many of the drivers would have been good at any sport they took up
That's like saying because Ronnie O'Sullivan is reasonable club runner, Snooker is a sport! Which it obviously isn't......
FWIW I appreciate how fit and strong an F1 driver needs to be. I quite like "motorsport" - it's enough of a distinction to a acknowledge it's not the same but a close cousin.
Maybe snooker and darts could be "pubsport". And bowls "Godswaitingroomsport".
Tell the teams to come up with a plan to remove 100-150kgs from the car.
They're looking to drop 40-50kg in 2026.
But a lot of the weight increase has been due to safety measures (stronger safety cell due to addition of Halo), and added weight of hybrid technology.
Halo has certainly saved one life (Grosjean) and possibly Hamiltons in 2021 and Zhou's in 2022...
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New regs...
As for saying it’s not proper sport I bet many of the drivers would have been good at any sport they took up
Jenson Button is quite an accomplished Triathalope, and Valteri Bottas is a pretty handy Gravel rider, sponsored by Canyon.
How about an open day? Say twice a year after the end of a race, parc ferme is open season for engineers from other teams to crawl all over the other cars, verniers and camera in hand.
I don't know if it still exists but there have been racing series where you have to sell the car/bike to a competitor at a fixed (and relatively low) cost. I'm not suggesting that HAAS could buy and operate a Red Bull but they could surely dismantle and analyse it to enhance their own cars
It turned out to be the “best car/ driver/strategy/tyre wear/overtaking/under-over cut” competition we’ve seen in ages – Verstappen still pranced off, untroubled, into the sunset though. 🙄
Which is the benefit of the reversed grid.
Currently any time you have an interesting battle for say second and third, first place gets a clear track to time-trial their way clear of the mess behind them unmolested.
This is probably a valid concern though
Also remember F1 teams employ some very smart people – they’d quickly work out the best combination of where to qualify so they can maximise the net result and you end up with people trying to qualify 7th or 8th rather than aiming for the front row and the whole thing becomes a joke.
I’m not suggesting that HAAS could buy and operate a Red Bull but they could surely dismantle and analyse it to enhance their own cars
I bet the couldn’t/wouldnt. It’s not just a collection of parts bolted together to make it go faster, it’s an entirely integrated system, especially on the aero, so you can’t just borrow bits from other cars without making huge changes to the rest of the car, which aint cheap
I think the idea of sprint races had some merit. Qualifying then lap times (not finishing position) determines the Sunday positions. Maybe one race longer than the other to differentiate between the soft and hard tyres, but not so long you could get an advantage by pitting.
And yet Max is consistently ahead of Perez.
A world championship with only one competitive entry and a 2nd team for it is hardly exciting.
It's as exciting as watching a Premier League with a Man City 2nd 11 in it, but rather than a round-robin competition it's just Man City Vs Man City 38 times, played in different locations, most of which will be at night and behind 20ft wire fencing so you can't even look at the scenery like the boring bits of the TdF. Only to determine that the Man City 1st 11 is best.
Tell the teams to come up with a plan to remove 100-150kgs from the car. If it has to go to 13″ wheels and no hybrids then great. Shows what bllx it all is. F1 should be leading not following the size and weight gain of passenger vehicles.
I'm not entirely convinced, no hybrids would mean slower acceleration and less fuel economy. They might corner a bit quicker but get left for dead on the exit and have to back off to save fuel to make it to the line.
Don’t need it .There was eleventy-three overtakes at the weekend, mostly becasue the teams (sometime even individual drivers within teams) were on different tyre strategies. LeClerc on a one-stop, the Mercedes on a one stop (but as it turns out, a two stop) and the racing was interesting exciting and evolving the entire race. It turned out to be the “best car/ driver/strategy/tyre wear/overtaking/under-over cut” competition we’ve seen in ages
Is it just rose tinted glasses, or did overtaking in the old days (pre 2000) require more skill? There no enjoyment in watching someone lapping seconds a lap quicker drive past someone who's on the "wrong" tyres. I'd rather they just allowed a free tyre compound choice at least so teams could pick what actually worked not what's two nominal compound ratings off optimal in order to force some overtaking.
Or ban pitting under safety cars, at least then almost everyone would go Hard->soft to try and build a gap before pitting then a scrap to the line on soft tyres so the car's would be evenly matched.
I bet the couldn’t/wouldnt.
Yep - the top teams are the top teams for a reason.
Donkeys years ago I read an article about F3 teams and how the same top teams always won in what was a spec series. One of the things they did was with engines. I theory they were all the same, but the top teams would buy say 10 engines, strip them apart, measure and check every component then rebuild 4 engines from the best parts from each engine. So they'd have 4 perfect engines giving more bhp rather than 10 OK ones.
As as James Vowles is finding out at Williams - Williams systems are archaic compared to the systems at Merc he was used to.
I bet the couldn’t/wouldnt. It’s not just a collection of parts bolted together to make it go faster, it’s an entirely integrated system, especially on the aero, so you can’t just borrow bits from other cars without making huge changes to the rest of the car, which aint cheap
+1
There's a world of difference between knowing how something works (e.g. a double diffuser) , knowing why it works (Bernoulli's principle) , and being able to actually design one yourself (Adrian Newey disappearing for several weeks to figure out a retrofit that made their car competitive with a team with so little budget their fueling guy was a self employed plumber on weekdays).
90% of the already visible little winglets and protrusions probably make no sense to the other teams unless their car already had the same problem to solve.
And ignores the engineering that goes into the rest of the car. You can see someone's novel rear wing idea that you could probably copy for a few hundred £k in a couple of months believing that it'll solve your cornering problems, you can't see the weeks/months of FEA time that went into making the engine block a better stressed member of the chassis.
Is it just rose tinted glasses, or did overtaking in the old days (pre 2000) require more skill?
I think it probably did, but not all the drivers actually had the required level of skill, which is why DRS was (partly) introduced - to stop drivers spearing up the inside, or lunging hopelessly from 30m out in the vague hope that the driver ahead might just get out the way in time...
Carbon brakes massively shortened braking distances too. So ambitious lunges just don't work nowadays when braking 'event' is at the 50m board not the 150m board! 🙂
A thought.......Hamilton must have more cash built up than he's likely to spend in the rest of his days. With that in mind he could do anything he wanted now rather than sign for Ferrari. Given that why does he stay in F1 rather than go to another motorsport if it would be more interesting? With that logic, from a driver's perspective at least, it must have some sort of draw other than just the cache of being the pinnacle genre.
The only thing I miss from old F1 is the jeapody of reliability. The engineering is so good these days that the cars are almost guaranteed to finish. I don't think that allowing unlimited engine changes would change this now, the knowledge gained from having to make them work for 6 races can't be unlearned so they would gain power but still be reliable.
Carbon brakes massively shortened braking distances too. So ambitious lunges just don’t work nowadays when braking ‘event’ is at the 50m board not the 150m board! 🙂
They certainly have helped resilience but the limiting factor remains front tyre adhesion under braking although granted that has also increased massively with aero.
The only thing I miss from old F1 is the jeapody of reliability.
Its perhaps not as bad as it was but in Australia both Hamilton and Verstappen took early baths because of technical issues...
Its perhaps not as bad as it was but in Australia both Hamilton and Verstappen took early baths because of technical issues…
True, but that was merely a blip
I don’t think that allowing unlimited engine changes would change this now, the knowledge gained from having to make them work for 6 races can’t be unlearned so they would gain power but still be reliable.
It would be fantastically expensive, you would have to lift the cost cap on engine supplies or else the engine manufacturers would refuse to supply customer teams - without that, the customer teams would burn through 100 engines per season.
If you want more power, that would be very easy to achieve just by increasing the fuel flow rate with the current designs - they are basically limited by how much fuel is allowed. The old 80s turbos were cranking out well over 1000 bhp in qualifying trim, so it probably wouldn't be too hard to get 1500 hp peak out of a hybrid with peak electrical deployment if the fuel flow rate was unrestricted. However, that would make it even more tyre dependent because it would just cook the rear tyres. So, you'd end up with drivers having to conserve their tyres in qualifying just to last one lap, plus teams underfueling and driving several seconds off the pace in the race to keep the tyres alive.
Formula 1 has always had periods of one team dominating a season or two, even back in the 70's. But you had jeopardy, would the engine last, have enough fuel etc. Due to the current regulations and cost capping one team has set the standard and everyone is playing catch up to an ever changing goal post.
The races themselves are boring due to the tyres being shite, Pirelli have always been bad. It's a pity that there isn't competition with the tyre suppliers.
As for this season, I may place a bet on Verstappen leading over 1500 laps, he's bound to do it.😴
It’s a pity that there isn’t competition with the tyre suppliers.
That would make things worse.
I started following F1 when Mansell and Piquet were teammates at Williams. McLaren-Honda were the first modern superteam, the Honda turbo engine was unbeatable. Then the Renault V10 was unbeatable and Williams dominated. I'm pretty sure that Senna would have won a string of titles from 1994 onwards if he hadn't been killed. Then we had the Ferrari domination, with only McLaren being much of a challenge for years. Then, once Red Bull mastered the blown diffuser, it was Red Bull for years, then Mercedes for years. Yes, there were some closely fought championships over the decades, but most of them just saw one team running away with it. Tyre wars just made it worse - the Bridgestone tyres that were developed specifically around the Ferrari were a major part of the Schumacher domination, as I recall.
Formula 1 has always had periods of one team dominating a season or two, even back in the 70’s.
For sure, but (70s/80s/90s) no one driver won more than two years on the trot. Now it's common for 4+ in succession. (Currently have a belter of a migraine so may have added some stuff up wrong there)
Edit, I think you have to go back to Fangio from Schumacher in 2000 to find more than two drivers championships in succession?
With that logic, from a driver’s perspective at least, it must have some sort of draw other than just the cache of being the pinnacle genre
As dull as it is for us to watch, I suspect the skills of keeping these fantastic machines on the road while going around 130R type corners at 150mph, tailing another driver at such high speeds within inches and the related instincts, physical effort and mental processing required is a huge adrenaline rush inside the cockpit.
Is it just me is Formula One the most overrated, boring, expensive, non-Green (whatever that means) sport on the planet?
Planet-destroying yawn fest, that, like elite football, exists because very, very rich people and corporations have money to burn and can't think of anything better to do with it / as an 'entertainment for the sofa-bound masses who'd otherwise drown in their own mental and physical inertia.
You'd think maybe there was a better way of spaffing billions a year up the wall. It would maybe be marginally less appalling if every single race didn't consist of Max Charisma driving off from the start and continuing, unchallenged, to the end. Still, it helps sell SUVs - it does? - and god knows, teh planet needs more of them...
Tyre wars just made it worse – the Bridgestone tyres that were developed specifically around the Ferrari were a major part of the Schumacher domination, as I recall.
But on the flipside, when you have one supplier who's soft tyre won't last a lap, and the drivers can't push too hard, it isn't good considering F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport.
the sofa-bound masses who’d otherwise drown in their own mental and physical inertia
Ooh my hero 😍
As it is, it’s a tyre changing and tactics competition.
Entirely this. Would be far more entertaining to turn up at Kwik-Fit with a crate of beer and promise it to the team which finishes first. Points deducted if wheels fall off in the car park.