MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
some interesting stuff in this blog post about left and right-sided tyres
Very interesting. That whole thousand miles of extra testing is all very fishy if you ask me...
Seems that Merc have been tyre swapping since Melbourne anyway, so nothing to do with the test. Also [url= http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2013/05/28/a-curious-turn-of-events/ ]Joe Saward[/url] has some interesting views on the background to the whole issue - worth a read.
So they're in court today (updates [url= http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/12433/8783549/FIA-Tribunal-updates ]here[/url]). Any predictions for the outcome? I'm torn between a total case dismissal and a suspended ban for Merc.
I'm a Lewis fan and I'm concerned as this test is bad PR for Merc either way. I hope its not a ban etc and Christian Horner made it clear that he was approached to do a test but turned it down as not right ....but then what about the engine mapping and other Redbull 'innovations'?
Still, I can't see it going well for Mercedes.
I'm still amazed that they were allowed to do the testing in the first place. Common sense failure!!
Toyota were banned from rallying for a year for a rules violation (well, intentional cheating) so there is a precedent for that sort of thing
Looks like CH made the right decision turning it down. But hasn't Ross Brawn said he did the testing with FIA blessing?
Just found this on the Formula 1 website:
The FIA has stated that following initial enquiries from Pirelli and Mercedes, it advised that a test with a current car could be possible if all teams were offered the same opportunity. However, it received no subsequent confirmation that such an offer had been made or that the Mercedes test was going ahead.
I think it depends on what comes out in the evidence.
if it is clear that Pirelli approached Merc about doing a test and Merc went to the FIA (albeit possibly just a quick chat about it and didn't get all the boxes ticked) and its clear they didn't run any new parts or gather any car data other than was required for the testing then Merc will be OK and Pirelli will face whatever sanction you can give to the sole tyre supplier.
If however it transpires that Merc went to Pirelli and said along the lines of 'if you invite us for a test nudge nudge, me and you can do 1000km of testing nudge nudge' and then run a whole load of prototype parts and have all the airflow measuring kit on etc then it could get quite nasty for Merc.
That said, credit to Brawn - he said at Canada that the decision to run the test was his and if there are any repercussions then on his head be it but he genuinely doesn't seem to think Merc have done anything wrong.
Cheers
Danny B
OTOH the FIA are fairly painted into a corner over this. AFAIK Pirelli are the only real contenders for the 2014 tyre contract (even though it's not signed yet) and Merc are supplying 3 teams with engines for 2014 - other manufacturers would be unwilling/unable to fill the gap if they walked away.
But that's never stopped them from doing something stupid in the past...
Yes, it's going to be an interesting day. It will also be nice to put the whole matter to rest! It's been one if those events where no one has looked particularly good or smart.
shermer +1.
Massive fine for Merc is what I think will happen. But as has already been said they can't afford to annoy either party - unless they want to do simulator F1 racing next season!
...there's also speculation on technical F1 forums that Red Bull may be running some sort of traction control.
atlaz - Member
Toyota were banned from rallying for a year for a rules violation (well, intentional cheating) so there is a precedent for that sort of thing
An ingenious air restrictor that opened itself up on stage then closed again for scrutineering is a tad more serious than this. The ban was originally forever iirc, then they pussied out and chopped it to a year
...there's also speculation on technical F1 forums that Red Bull may be running some sort of traction control.
I'm no RB fan but then they are only running it on one car then? 😉
Looking at the stories surrounding RB's traction control it would seem most experts don't think its true. Some report of a dodgy skid mark(!) from Webber's car which is more likely tyre oscillation and some other technical terms.
Cheers
Danny B
Duplicate
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Paul Harris QC, representing Mercedes, tells the FIA disciplinary hearing in Paris: "This test was undertaken by Pirelli. They directed, controlled, stopped the car - call it what you like. They did it all.
"Mercedes was the equivalent to a sub-contractor of Pirelli for the test; they were akin to a temporary employee of Pirelli, as were the marshals and the catering staff."
Today's tribunal comes after Mercedes were accused of illegal testing in Barcelona.
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They had better hope and prey that Pirelli's evidence matches up!!
Cheers
Danny B
Interesting point re the Ferrari case dismissal. That would suggest that a team is free set up a separate division to run a 2 year old car with current tyres (and v similar engine) at the track where the next race is to be held. Clearly no advantage to be gained there eh?
Merc will get some kind of suspended sentence, there is no way the FIA will ban such a big player/money maker.
Brawn though could be on his way out (pushed out!). although with everything going on at Merc and the Management, i think he was going end of this season anyway.
Well there's a school of thought that says that he'd only be there this season anyway now Wolff has arrived so they'd be happy to offer him up as a sacrificial lamb.
Personally I think Mercedes definitely knew what they were doing and need punishing. Perhaps a big fine and loss of constructors points for a few races from Monaco onwards.
Paul Harris QC, representing Mercedes, tells the FIA disciplinary hearing in Paris: "This test was undertaken by Pirelli. They directed, controlled, stopped the car - call it what you like. They did it all.
Who was the driver?
If a Merc employee = Bad. If one of the two race drivers = Terrible.
The rules state the car has to be operated by Pirelli.
Seems that Merc have presented emails from the FIA's legal dept which confirm that this could be classified as a pirelli test and therefore outside the team testing ban.
Pirelli's evidence this afternoon will be interesting. If they have anything extra to support Merc's case then I reckon the whole thing will be dismissed.
[quote=hora ]
Who was the driver?
If a Merc employee = Bad. If one of the two race drivers = Terrible.
The rules state the car has to be operated by Pirelli.
Merc will claim that they were only "sub-contractors" to Pireli.
Desperate stuff from Merc. It was a 2013 car, driven by Lewis/Nico. all this dancing on a pinhead stuff about who was "undertaking" the test is legal BS.
Loss of constructor points is my best bet and a slap on the wrist for Pirelli
driven by Lewis/Nico
If thats true then they should have race bans for the drivers unless the FIA is complicit.
Why hora? Drivers are employees of teams, testing regs apply to teams not drivers. It might even be a clue that the drivers themselves aren't present today, so they have no case to answer (to the FIA).
hora - MemberIf thats true then they should have race bans for the drivers.
Why? They're just doing what the team has told them. Punishing the constructors makes far more sense.
I also think the ban on in-season testing should be revoked. All it has meant is that the teams spend loads of cash on CFD and wind tunnels with dubious results instead of on-track testing.
[quote=hora said]
If thats true then they should have race bans for the drivers unless the FIA is complicit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22672228
"Mercedes ran for three days using race drivers Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg."
Lewis/Nico would have to be a bit thick (or disinterested in data/development- even their managers should have a grasp shirley?).
Mind you if the boss says 'FIA have said ok'- I'll do abit of backpedalling..
Look the the McLaren spygate finding - no impact (directly at least) to the drivers despite Alonso and De La Rosa being directly involved (emails showed that FA was asking specific questions about Ferrari setup).
As such, I'd be very surprised if there were any sanctions for the drivers in the Merc case.
all this dancing on a pinhead stuff about who was "undertaking" the test is legal BS.
That's what F1 is be it legal or rulebook/technical regs pinhead dancing!
emails showed that FA was asking specific questions about Ferrari setup
didn't Alonso turn snitch though due to feeling disgruntled by Hamo/team favouritism thus escaping punishment!
Yes, he did and clearly that helped but DLR didn't and still didn't get any censure. Interestingly (considering Hamilton was supposedly getting preferential treatment by the team), LH wasn't privvy to the discussion.
Anyway, that's off topic...
I was watching the Sky interview of Max Mosley by Steve Ryder yesterday, he said that McLaren wouldn't have been fined $100m for spying if they had confessed in the first place. That's why Renault got away with doing something similar. I hope Ross and Toto have seen it.
It won't surprise me if Ross is made the scapegoat and gets the boot - as others have said its a matter of when, not if he goes anyway.
It won't surprise me if Ross is made the scapegoat and gets the boot
Agreed. I think it suits both sides. Merc have too many chiefs and can offload the blame while the FIA need to show that someone's paid the price.
Or as has been the case at other times, it'll be shown that the rules aren't sufficiently explicit (or conflict) and no punishment will be handed down but the rules will change.
I imagine Pirelli will get fined and Mercedes will lose constructors points which will also mean they will get less money from Bernie at the end of the year.
Fighting talk from Pirelli!
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Pirelli begins its evidence by saying it does not come under the jurisdiction or authority of the FIA. Pirelli is citing the case against former Renault team boss Flavio Briatore, whose FIA ban from motorsport was overturned by the French courts, as evidence that as a supplier/third party they cannot be subject to the regulations.
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Cheers
Danny B
Just about to post that danny. Looking like the main result of this is going to be a lot of work for the FIA legal bods to tighten up their rules - if I were RedBull or McLaren I'd immediately start dusting off the 2011 car and booking circuits for "Pirelli tyre tests" a few days before each GP for the rest of the year.
So far I have gleaned that the FIA say they didn't authorise the test but did tell Merc high level that using the '13 spec car may be ok if other teams are invited to the picnic etc.
Merc have said here's the emails and anyway it was a Pirelli test not a Merc test so we can't be held accountable and as it was a Pirelli test any invites to other teams etc are the responsibility of Pirelli.
Pirelli have said that they are outside the FIA's jurisdiction and can do whatever the **** they want thank you very much.
The FIA are going to look like a bunch of arse if this gets dismissed...
Cheers
Danny B
The FIA are [s]going to look like [/s]a bunch of arse [s]if this gets dismissed...[/s]
FTFY
no decision until tomorrow anyway.
if i was a betting man
1) Mercedes points from races following the tests dismissed
2) company fined X,XXX,XXX dollars for breach of FIA rules
3) company on suspended 3 race "yellow" card
4) Pirelli - no case to answer for, but must clearly submit to the FIA all testing with any F1 team in the future.
5) Brawn will leave Merc within the next 2 races
and continuing the future path :
6) lauda takes direct control of merc team
7) pirelli leave F1 at end of season
8) next years merc team and engine is a dog
9) lauda blames time and drives
10) lewis moves to ferrari, nico moves to RBR
11) merc team sold at end of 2014
12) brawn buys merc for 1quid
13) hires Schumacher and Button
14) wins 2015 WDC and MDC
15) i marry kylie minogue
Haha nice one! 😀
I'm with you up until no.15 - that'll never happen, as I will get there first 😉
6) lauda takes direct control of merc team
Lauda is non-exec - eg trouble maker/problem fixer, not someone to run the actual race team. Pat Fry is the man with the role closest to Ross Braun.
Can definitely agree with 5,7,8,10,11 above.
Might be a variation on 10, involving Kimi, and/or 1 championship contender name out of F1 by 2015 (as well as Webber + Massa).
If Brawn is out, I reckon he'd be out for good.
GL with 15.
Out for good, working out how to spend the £70m he got for [s]Honda[/s] Brawn....
I think that the most important fact is being missed. The FIA is now headed up by that nice Jean Todt chappie, formally of Ferrari. THerefore merc are guilty by Ferrar's test of the same tyres is not legal because the car was a bit older. Does the FIA really expect us to believe that a team cant work out the impact of the tyres on a 2 year old car would have on the current one.
Also, how come no one from the FIA noticed Merc, the day after the race, doing a few laps of the circuit?
[quote=chrismac ]I think that the most important fact is being missed. The FIA is now headed up by that nice Jean Todt chappie, formally of Ferrari. THerefore merc are guilty by Ferrar's test of the same tyres is not legal because the car was a bit older. Does the FIA really expect us to believe that a team cant work out the impact of the tyres on a 2 year old car would have on the current one.
(a) the regulations allow a one-year old car to be used and (b) Ferrari had their test/development driver in the car. If Mercedes hadn't reckoned their drivers would benefit from taking part in the test they'd have used a test/development driver too.
So no one is buying the tyres need testing and everyone else is un helpful or expects playing excuse from Ross Braun?
Well the decision is out...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/22999458
What's to stop the other teams doing 3 days of testing now, they might prefer that to doing the young drivers test later in the year?
I think if another team tried the same stunt sanctions would be tougher on the basis that the tribunal have obviously thought Merc and Pirelli were a bit naughty but that the rules were a bit unclear
The rules will now be tightened to prevent such a thing happening again.
I would imagine the other teams are going to be a tad disgruntled but that's life.
Cheers
Danny B
More proof that F1 is just a joke a cash generating joke for a few people but about as far removed from what proper motor racing is as you can get.
So basically this is the Tribunal saying 'the FIA weren't clear enough about what the teams could & couldn't do, the current regs need tightening up to stop this happening again BUT Merc were pushing it too far to do what they did, and Pirelli were complicit in the event'.
Still don't see how they can really reprimand Pirelli who don't have an FIA license and so the only jurisdiction would be French law over the Pirelli/FIA contract, but the rest of it seems to reflect the situation as well as can be.
No doubt many will say "it's not fair" but then what is?
ETA - and of course some will say that this shows F1 isn't a sport, because no other high level sports have their rules/rulings mucked about with do they...
Seems like that's about all they could do really - nobody has come out of this that well, including Red Bull and Ferrari (IMHO).
[i]The tribunal found in mitigation that:
•There was no intention by either Pirelli or Mercedes to gain "any unfair sporting advantage" [/i]
So why did they not use the test driver? I would have thought that they would normally want Hamilton and Rosberg to recover after a weekends hard racing? And why did they feel the need to make them use special unmarked helmets?
And why did they feel the need to make them use special unmarked helmets?
For safety due to a lack of bodyguards (was the excuse I read on the BBC)
So it [i]was[/i] Hamilton and Rosberg doing the tests? I was trying to find that out....
Also, what is the 'young driver test'? Does it affect the championship?
So basically this is the Tribunal saying 'the FIA weren't clear enough
The tribunal seems pretty clear that Mercedes broke the rules, if they are why shouldn't Mercedes be?
[i]The tribunal said that:
•Mercedes had broken article 22.4 of the sporting regulations by running an illegal in-season test with a current car
•The FIA's qualified approval did not and could not override article 22.4
•Mercedes "did obtain some material advantage" which "at least potentially gave it an unfair sporting advantage"[/i]
For safety due to a lack of bodyguards (was the excuse I read on the BBC)
I guess they must have kept them on all the time in the paddock, motorhome etc?
Do they wear unmarked helmets during pre season testing?
Quite a good solution IMO, counteracts the Mercedes advantage by missing the young drivers test and otherwise is just a slap on the wrist which should be lenient enough not to cause any drama from Pirelli and Mercedes.
Also, what is the 'young driver test'? Does it affect the championship?
It doesn't affect the championship. It's where young drivers, that are the future F1 stars apparently, get to test out in the cars with a view to securing a contract I think.
so, why did they not let all the other teams but mercedes use current drivers as well at the Young drivers test, then it would have been fair?
Not really as Mercedes weren't (apparently) aware of what tyres they were using, it's unlikely they were current season ones which they will be at the young driver's test. The testing was also (apparently) dictated by Pirelli so likely wasn't the same sort of testing Mercedes would have chosen to do if they had a choice. I think just missing out on the young driver's test hurts them as much as missing the Pirelli test hurts the other teams.
Ofc if Mercedes miraculously manage to fix their high tyre wear issue in the next race or two then that should raise alarm bells
it's unlikely they were current season ones
Weren't they testing the possible replacement tyres for this season (due to the delimination issues they've had at a couple of races with a certain compound) which has since been rejected as not all teams agree they can change the compounds mid-season.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22894591