[Closed] F1 Grid Girls under review

[quote=andyrm ]Here's where the bullshit "inequality" thing falls down mate.

😆 - I don't usually mention this, but guess what sort of school I went to and guess where I went to uni? Don't get the idea I'm jealous of a privilege I haven't had. Yes, I know it's possible to break through the barriers, but I also have very direct experience that it's not equal - like your sister I was lucky enough to have teachers prepared to put extra in to help, not everybody gets that. Meanwhile even with those teachers some of my mates at school weren't quite so good at exams as me - yet I still reckon they were brighter than some of those I met at uni who had been to private schools.

Do you really think society is equal because some kids from non-privileged backgrounds get to go to Oxbridge?

Have you forgotten all the evolutionary reasons you cited - you are now in the novel position of not agreeing with yourself......I assume their is an evolutionary reason for this as well ?

No. I've never denied the existence of the outliers. Susie Wolff, like others, has admitted she's 'not normal' to want to pursue it as a career.

😆

FFS your argument is all over the place and I see no logic at work here at all.
So evolution is the reason women cannot do it except for when women do it.. is that right
WOW 😯

[quote=Malvern Rider ]*Edit - and this: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/nov/29/formula-one-toto-wolff-criticse-all-women-series-plans

Spot on - and the ratios of those competing in karting can't be explained by evolutionary reasons, it's beyond doubt that there's societal influences there as well.

Even if 20% of kids karting participation was female, I don't think you would see any more make it to top flight F1.
The biological clock starts ticking post puberty. Doing risky things becomes genetically unappealing. There is no pay off for women in dangerous sports evolutionary speaking whereas there is for men.

Junkyard- I haven't contradicted myself. I've said that there is no innate imperative for women to take risks in sport. Not that they shouldn't or can't- just that they are less likely for the reasons I've explained.

So evolution is the reason women cannot do it

Yep same with football. The 50 year FA ban on women in football (and the ban on women in motorsports) was also 'evolution' at work. Everything is 'evolution'. Even the Biblical stuff about men and women. They coincide, right? Evolution!

Same reason you don't see so many 'black' people in pro cycling or motorsports. They are more evolutionarily equipped for running and hurdles. Don't believe me? Ask anyone who only partly-understands evolution.

Everything is 'natural' unless it's 'unnatural' 😉

'Societal influences'? That'll be evolution*

*Unless the wrong type of society.

[quote=crosshair ]The biological clock starts ticking post puberty. Doing risky things becomes genetically unappealing. There is no pay off for women in dangerous sports evolutionary speaking whereas there is for men.

Yeah, hence why there are no women taking part in rock climbing, let alone competing at the top level.

Actually, despite the increase in women's football, only 10% of women who support it class themselves as being 'passionate' about football. Men and women consume and participate in sport in different ways and the genetic aspect is a very strong part of that.

Race is not the same because it's not based on tangible genetic differences. The type of sport chosen by males in a given society is where the cultural differences come in. Some people chase plastic sacks of air, others dismembered calf heads on horseback.

Yeah, hence why there are no women taking part in rock climbing, let alone competing at the top level.

Same reason you don't see so many 'black' people in pro cycling or motorsports. They are more evolutionarily equipped for running and hurdles. Don't believe me? Ask anyone who only partly-understands evolution.

Might need to clarify if that's Poe's law or serious.

Same reason the British were so under represented and rubbish. Are we just evolutionarily not cut out for cycling? Nothing to do with the lack of exposure and opportunity until Lottery money came through and we built a load of Velodromes.

Pretty sure if you took the 200m sprint lineup and put them on bikes, you'd have a kick-ass set of track sprinters within a season.

And bring that around to the point of the thread. We can find enough women to fill a track team prepared to risk injuries. So I'm not buying this codswollop spouted up there that women in general aren't competitive.

[quote=crosshair ]So you keep alleging.

Go and check if you like - though maybe the group I climb with and the climbing walls I go to are anomolies, and there's no such person as Shauna Coxsey (the interesting thing there is that if you asked me to name a competition rock climber of either gender she'd be the first and possibly only name I'd come up with).

Besides it is a little different than the examples I've used as it's a solo rather than a team sport.

Ah, like motorsport - oh hang on...

...though it seems you don't know any more about climbing than you do about casual sexism in society.

So now it's about team sports? Do they have to have moving goalposts these team sports to be things only men do?

[quote=thisisnotaspoon ]Might need to clarify if that's Poe's law or serious.

I thought the last sentence clarified the Poe's law position.

Men and women consume and participate in sport in different ways and the genetic aspect is a very strong part of that.

I'd tend to agree with that AFAIK. 'Mating lek' - (ritualised gatherings) of males does play a large part in many spectator sports. Especially in strongly patriarchal cultures.

(Yes I was Poeing on the last post 😉 )

Predictably we have now reached that point where, as in every stw thread, certain posters dismiss every other counter argument as a 'straw man'..a sure sign to step away..

I thought the last sentence clarified the Poe's law position

My poor snowflake brain is so overwhelmed by others testosterone that I just can't tell anymore.

[quote=tpbiker ]Predictably we have now reached that point where, as in every stw thread, certain posters [s]dismiss[/s] every [s]other counter[/s] argument [s]as[/s] is a 'straw man'..a sure sign to step away..

Though to be fair it was like that from the start. If you don't want to be accused of making straw man arguments, don't make straw man arguments (I've provided a handy list of such arguments for you to avoid).

Or have we reached the point of the thread where pointing out other people's straw man arguments is now dismissed as fake news?

apart form the hurdle where their only role in the sport is to be the scantily clad girl.

I wouldn't usually bother replying to a topic once it gets to this stage of the same old tiresome arguing going on that seems to happen about anything remotely controversial.

But as others have pointed out that comment is utter rubbish 😯 Do you honestly believe that? There are loads of women doing all sorts of varied roles in motorsport, I doubt there's many people in the sport these days that see a female race engineer and say "oh look a woman, how quaint" they're just accepted in the way a man would be.

Maybe somebody should tell the person opening the door in this picture that she should be stood infront the car holding a board and wearing lycra as she obviously dosen't know her place 😉

The picture could also be a nice interruption for us knuckle draggers before having to endure another 10 pages of tiresome arguing 😆

[img] [/img]

Ah, like motorsport - oh hang on...

Yes exactly. Try turning up at a circuit with just an F1 car and getting it out of the lorry 😆

If that makes it a team sport, then every sport at the top level is a team sport.

Though I reckon you could probably turn up at a karting circuit on your own go for a drive around and go home without anybody to help you.

OTOH try turning up at a climbing wall or a crag on your own and getting to the top.

What exactly is the point you're making here? Oh look, there's a squirrel...

it is a little different than the examples I've used as it's a solo rather than a team sport.

If you'd actually read the stuff I'd linked to then you would have quite clearly read the logic behind what I'm saying and how team sports relate to Lekking behaviour as mentioned by Malvern.

Still doesn't change anything. 'Casual sexism' in motorsport is a construction of the perennially offended. Women are treated ethically regardless of their role in the entire charade!

As Chantel is happy to testify

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/42358512/why-i-loved-being-an-f1-grid-girl

I wouldn't usually bother replying to a topic once it gets to this stage of the same old tiresome arguing going on that seems to happen about anything remotely controversial.

Yup. Continually prolonged by the same old people who've said the same thing 100 times but just can't be seen to back down or not have the last word 🙁
P.s
The only opinion I have on grid girls is that if some women want to do it, and are happy to do so, well good luck to them.

a sure sign to step away..

That was about 6 pages ago. You can either see and accept the implications that it has or you can ignore them with 100's of spurious unrelated things..

If you'd actually read the stuff I'd linked to

5) Nobody is suggesting that the grid girls are poorly treated or that they're not happy to do it.

Meanwhile "perennially offended" (just like "virtue signalling") is an ad hom, hence a sure fire way of telling that somebody is incapable of arguing their point on the facts.

Yes but you would say that snowflake 😉

Continually prolonged by the same old people who've said the same thing 100 times but just can't be seen to back down or not have the last word

[quote=Junkyard ]Ah the well known team sport of running you were using in your earlier citation

Don't be silly Junky, everybody knows running is a team sport as runnerists need somebody to tie their shoelaces for them and help them on with their vest. That's the definition of team sport right, something where other people help you get ready before you go out and compete on your own?

Hang on, I've got it, do the drivers tow around the goalposts for the footballerists, is that where the team sport thing comes in?

So come on then, what would evidence satisfy you that your casual sexism claims are wrong?

Anyone winning this yet?

So come on then, what would evidence satisfy you that your casual sexism claims are wrong?

You'd have to convince me that all the women who I've talked to about this were all wrong. That they were all making up their life stories and experiences. You'd have to convince me that I had imagined the things that my kids have told me and the conversations we'd had. You'd have to convince me my wife was inventing stories for some reason.

This isn't just a theory, you know. This is what many many women experience. I've spoken to many women about this, and read a lot of words written by women. To be honest when I was younger I dismissed feminists just like you do, because I thought the battle had been won. But I now realise that whilst legally we're far better off than we were, socially we still have some way to go.

If you'd never seen a black swan, you'd swear they didn't exist. If I have seen one, I'd swear they did exist. You'd never be able to convince me they didn't exist because I'd seen one. It's like that.

If none of those ladies are actually put girls then your argument is invalid. How many pit girls have you discussed this with ?

Definitely what people like you say on Burka threads

I assume you have no view on female circumcision either then and women who object can be ignored as they have never had it done.

Its such an obviously poor argument i cannot believe someone wrote it down for others to read.

I assume you have no view on female circumcision either then and women who object can be ignored as they have never had it done.

When the uk rules pit girls unlawful .......

[img] [/img]

/endthread

I was just using your "logic" against you ; the side step allows me to know you accept its poor and wont admit it, we both know this however much you wish to try and deflect.

PS the govt cannot ban them remember only those who have been pit girls are allowed opinions so it did not even support your argument.

You were not using my logic. How can you compare body mutilation to being a pit girl. That just shows how little of an argument you have. Other than fgm being illegal, woman don't do it of their own free will. That's completely different from what a pit girl does.

I don't care if there are pit girls or not. However I have chatted to quite a few unlike probably most other people in this thread thatbwant to see them stopped

I assume you have no view on female circumcision either then and women who object can be ignored as they have never had it done.

When you use female circumcision in an argument about pit girls you loose all credibility Junkyard. If you can't see that your a bit lost mate 🙁

I assume you have no view on female circumcision either then and women who object can be ignored as they have never had it done.

Anyone winning this yet?

Pit girls, that's who.

[IMG] [/IMG]

[IMG] [/IMG]

[IMG] [/IMG]

😀

Might have to google eBay motors

When I was a kid it was the tit/legs/arse that inspired me to watch my sporting heroes

The power of the [s]time machine[/s] Internets can make it all happen again!

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

Yup. Continually prolonged by the same old people who've said the same thing 100 times but just can't be seen to back down or not have the last word

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks it. I can't even comprehend how a grown adult can spend so much time trying to win an online argument with a stranger, it's absolutely nuts 😯

No wonder this place has a reputation for being a bunch of argumentative tossers 😆 In reality it's probably full of sensible people but there's the same few that seem intent on turning anything & everything into an argument.

Anyway that's 2 posts more than I would usually make on something like this, the only other useful contribution I can make is pictures of grid girls 😆

Bear is winner

😀

😆 at bear

If I had to choose a role model for my daughter from grid girls or the "anti" crowd, I know where I'd point her.

You were not using my logic. How can you compare body mutilation to being a pit girl

When you use female circumcision in an argument about pit girls you loose all credibility Junkyard. If you can't see that your a bit lost mate

You can either follow the argument or not but you cannot negate it. The view that only folk who have done something can express a view is flawed as I assume we a have the same view on female circumcision [ i never said they were the same either did I ?- and i assume none of has have any experience of it.

Bear thanks but not my type 😉

Yawn - you haven't any credibility left at all after trying to compare pit girls to FGM. I'm not even going to pay any attention to your comments any more.

as i said I did not do that and only an idiot would make that mistake/claim

I assume you have no view on female circumcision either then and women who object can be ignored as they have never had it done.

Secondly the logic is irrefutable you can be wrong[ twice in your case] or miss my point or flounce but you cannot refute it with a logical argument. I dont blame you for not trying but you could have just accepted my point now you have had it explained fully- not that it should have needed it

Deary me this place does not do thinking all that well. TO be fair i often dont do explaining very well either but there is no way you can think i am comparing the two.

Never mind the grid girls apparently sending out oppressive messages (that parents should be proactively offsetting anyway by positive and empowering parenting), the next social justice scandal is the dressing up box:

[img] ?w=577&ssl=1[/img]

Who's first to start a faux outrage thread about it? 😆

If none of those ladies are actually put girls then your argument is invalid. How many pit girls have you discussed this with ?

Again, it's not about the girls themselves. I am not worried about them. They are clearly doing well out of the arrangement.

The problem I have is with the statement that the F1 organisers are making by hiring them. I've explained this a few times now.

So my argument is still perfectly valid because I have spoken with many women who are the victims of sexism, and the F1 organisers are promoting sexist attitudes.

Please try harder to understand what I am trying to say, because I don't think you do. I'm doing my best to get my point across.

Oh and don't get me started on the kids' pirate thing. That's a whole nother issue 🙂

I am waiting for the argument that straight men who won't date transgender women because they have male 'bits' are bigots. An argument I listened into one day last week, those arguing it put me in mind of a few posters on here.

Missing your point there.

Still waiting for you to demonstrate that a) sexism doesn't exist and/or b) F1 organisers aren't sexist.

If I had to choose a role model for my daughter from grid girls or the "anti" crowd, I know where I'd point her.

Good point. "Oi! Stop being a grid girl, it's demeaning. Have a bit of respect for yourself and start petty squabbling on the internet!".

LOL @Bear and Malvern Rider. Triffic stuff.

@molgrips - please don't take this as a dig, as in no way is it intended as such. People tend to connect with and gravitate towards those with similar views to themselves, so there's a decent likelihood that the group of women you are talking to are a skewed group.

In much the same way as women I spoke to when the monster girls thread weren't phased by it.

Echo chambers and all that.

I would have said "birds of a feather flock together" but I believe "birds" is a word on the banned list these days...... 😆

As I say, not a dig, more an observation that there's lots of layers to real life, and perception very much is reality. Show 3 people a picture of a tree, all 3 will view and describe it differently.

So my argument is still perfectly valid because I have spoken with many women who are the victims of sexism, and the F1 organisers are promoting sexist attitudes.

Having pit girls is not sexist nor is it promoting sexist attitudes. All it seems to be doing is promoting the panties of the PC crowd getting twisted.

There is not predjudice, discrimination or stereotyping of a sex here.

[quote=Junkyard ]You know you had to use both the singular and use the past tense for her driving dont you.

Whereas your qualification is..? Oh yes, absolutely **** all. Compared to a woman who has driven at the top level of motorsport and actually heads an organisation getting women into motor racing.

Plum.

People tend to connect with and gravitate towards those with similar views to themselves, so there's a decent likelihood that the group of women you are talking to are a skewed group.

That's true - but what's your point? What similar views? Are you saying we're all hysterical or something and making something up that's not there?

That's true - but what's your point? What similar views? Are you saying we're all hysterical or something and making something up that's not there?

No, absolutely not.

What I'm saying is that it's shaky territory to present a group of people you know and who share your views as proof of concept as it's not a balanced sample.

But anyway, we're getting dangerously close to the whole "cite your sources" narrow mindedness that's prevalent on here rather than an ability to see there's many nuances to most real life situations.

"cite your sources" narrow mindedness that's prevalent on here

Whereas your qualification is..?

“I don’t think F1 or other motorsport series have to change to attract more women. I think any woman you ask would not want it to be changed.

I'm pretty sure she is referring to women within motorsports/F1.

There is not predjudice, discrimination or stereotyping of a sex here.

Devil's advocate time - does such a thing actually exist in any sport? (You missed out 'objectification' BTW)

If so, are there any *real* examples? Pics, video clips, words? I'm having a hard time imagining what such a (possibly) mythical beast would resemble?

There is no context for the quite I read - Ie I dont know for certain but it was not what i took from it.

http://www.cityam.com/239248/f1-grid-girls-should-stay-says-women-in-motorsport-ambassador-and-former-williams-driver-susie-wolff

“I don’t think F1 or other motorsport series have to change to attract more women. I think any woman you ask would not want it to be changed. There should be grid girls. It’s part of Formula One, it’s part of motorsport, it’s part of the glamour.”

I know at least one woman who wants grid girls to stop. And podium girls in cycling. She has quite a lot of experience at being a woman.

Liking the size of your sample.

I know one that had opportunities she wouldn't otherwise have had being a promo girl.

Liking the size of your sample.

I know one who did motorbikes once from a model agency selected only for her looks and never met them before. She said it was horrible and everyone pawed her- guess this was abut 10 years ago she told me so perhaps 10-15 years ago

Also anecdotal/hearsay/small sample " evidence"

[quote=poah ]If none of those ladies are actually put girls then your argument is invalid. How many pit girls have you discussed this with ?

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/f1-grid-girls-under-review/page/10#post-8912528

[quote=dufusdip ]Liking the size of your sample.

How large a sample do you need to disprove "I think any woman you ask would not want it to be changed"?

BTW loving your work bear - though she's not really my type either, can I swap with molly?

Based solely on her appearance?

Typist ^^^ 🙄

Liking the size of your sample.

I know one that had opportunities she wouldn't otherwise have had being a promo girl.

Hehe.

It's not just the one woman I know. An Amazon search for 'feminism' returns 31,657 books.

BTW loving your work bear - though she's not really my type either, can I swap with molly?

Sure.

[IMG] [/IMG]

I asked the question of my mate who attends a few moto gp events. He says he would do away with them, not because its exploitation, or confirmed gender bias, more so that its just a bit 'tacky'

When I asked him what he though about that leading to the grid girls not having the opportunity to do something they liked and get paid well for, his response was thus...'don't worry, pretty girls with big tits tend to do ok in life..I wouldn't worry about them' Probably a fair point..

On a side issue..I do struggle to comprehend how folks with young impressionable children can afford to spend so much of their weekend arguing on the internet.It seems like a full time job for some

I'm sat in hospital with my daughter, and we're both trying to entertain ourselves with various internet based activities alongside reading and lego.

I'm sat in hospital with my daughter, and we're both trying to entertain ourselves with various internet based activities alongside reading and lego.

Booo..that sucks. hope she is ok.

Well not entirely ok otherwise she wouldn't be here 🙂 But it's not too bad thanks.

She overheard me and my wife discussing this thread though and chimed in with her typically assertive comments!

Mine just got an Xbox for his birthday [ and early xmas present of games from grand parents ]as long as the internet does not stop working he [ and his brother] wont notice if i die

Hope everything goes well molly

Top photoshoppery Bear I feel like I did ok now [ well it could have been worse]

There was a brolly dolly at Prescott Hill Climb, just seemed very tacky.
At least they have Maria Herrera racing in Moto 3.

[b]Brolly[/b] [i]noun informal[/i]

An umbrella

[b]Dolly[/b] [i]noun[/i]

7. Also called: dolly bird, dollybird old-fashioned, slang, mainly British
an attractive and fashionable girl, esp one who is considered to be unintelligent

Seems even the dictionary is sex[s]ist[/s]y.