Wow. It’s always the person you’d least suspect of fiddling their books.
Haha yep no-one saw that coming lol
Track limits question.
I’ve just seen footage of an Aston sports car being launched off a sausage kerb at Monza after sliding wide on a bend, together with an article getting very annoyed with sausage kerbs.
To address the track limits issue, rather than kerbs (sausage or otherwise) is there no way of having a low-grip, high-abrasion surface for one car width (roughly, I appreciate not all classes are the same width). If you go beyond one car width there’s a clear penalty, if you repeated go just over the limits you’re going to wreck your tyres while losing grip.
Obviously it would need to be abrasive surface to give a controlled wrecking of tyres not something like the saw tooth (probably the wrong name) kerbs that got accused of slashing tyres a few years ago.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
...wire up their seats to the battery pack - every time they the go over track limits they get a little shock, gradually increasing the more they do it. They'll soon stop!! Should make interesting team radio too! 🤣🤣
Serious answer - grass and gravel have worked well for years. The main problem is what is good for cars can be an actual killer for motorbike riders.
But grass and gravel are bad for bikes and they’re commonly shared tracks these days.
Like I said what's good for cars isn't good for bikes.
Personally I don't really care if they go over the kerbs and off the track a bit. Looks more exciting.
If they gain an advantage during an overtake then penalize them.
Theh all seem to respect the track limits at Monaco and yet everyone seems to moan about how dull that race is🤷♂️
Instead of time penalties. No electrical power for 1 lap? Or no drs for 5 laps?
What was that radio call to Lewis about - "we have had a lap docked" (or something like that)?
What was that radio call to Lewis about – “we have had a lap docked” (or something like that)?
It was just the lap time that was deleted, for exceeding track limits. So not a problem unless it was a potential fastest lap
Just in case people haven’t seen the latest sausage kerb incident (mentioned above)
That’s the one @mashr
There has to be something better than that which still creates a penalty, preferably a cumulative penalty - hence abrasion and tyre wear.
I think he took a penalty on that one
With all the onboard electronics and data monitors available it can't be beyond possibilty to record the exact postion of each car at these critical points on the track and apply penalties accordingly. That could be the current time penalties or something which actually affects the performance of the car (say a reduction in power). Of course the latter would need to be carefully done so as not to cause a moving chicane.
[i]With all the onboard electronics and data monitors available i[/i] - it is challenging to be accurate within a few centimetres consistently around all circuits at the speeds they are travelling and for the time intervals involved I should imagine
Just had a quick think about the track limits issue. Any reason this wouldn't work and be implementable even as a retrofit to existing circuits?
Place a length of cable around the inside and outside of any corner, it doesn't need to be the whole circuit, just where cutting it gives and advantage. Push a low power radio signal (or similar) through it.
Fit the cars with receivers that pick up and show the strength of the signal to show how close to the wire the cars are. If the signal gets too strong then they are too close. This would allow the drivers to see how close they are actually getting and decide how hard they want to push.
Yep. Something like that. It would be relatively cheap, could be easily fitted at the required corners and has the advantage of giving driver feedback.
There's an even easier way:
"These are the track limits, go over them and you will be penalised thusly..."
Enforce it.
[i]There’s an even easier way:
“These are the track limits, go over them and you will be penalised thusly…”
Enforce it.[/i]
First you need to be able to measure it, which is kind of what I was suggesting
Pretty sure they already have sensors or cameras on certain corners. Sure I heard Brundle say the last corner at the red bull ring had one which is why the lap times in qualifying were getting deleted immediately if they went off there. Probably why they missed Perez going off at turn 7 as I assume that one didn’t.
shirley the track limit is the inside of of the white line and not the outside of it. Or you could say its the outside of the white line, you put any part of a tyre over the white line you are off the track you'll get a penalty.
These are supposed to be the best drivers in the world and yet they can't keep the cars between the white lines. 🤷♂️
[i]These are supposed to be the best drivers in the world and yet they can’t keep the cars between the white lines.[/i]
I thought they were the fastest racing drivers and the aim is a fast lap time, not parallel parking, 3 point turns or courteous road positioning, just the fastest way around the circuit without actually picking up a penalty
I always thought the skill is to go as fast as you can between the white lines, not to go as fast as you can using some imaginary part of the race track. Be as well doing away with all corners then just allow them to straight line everything whilst screaming STRAVA!!!
First you need to be able to measure it, which is kind of what I was suggesting
There is handily enough, a thickly painted white line going around the outside of the track, they could use that. It's remarkable how drivers can hit a line into the pits that indicates that they should be doing 80kph, or avoid crossing the pit lane exit when joining the track, or indeed manage any number of other driving tests...and yet going around a corner while simultaneously staying between two white lines often tens of metres apart seems to give some drivers a real issue, it's almost like they have some ulterior motive or something.
Where would this fall under todays track limit rules!... 🙂
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It was just the lap time that was deleted, for exceeding track limits. So not a problem unless it was a potential fastest lap
Ah. Thanks.
Simple way to enforce track limits to put a proper kerb in or a serrated one, stay inside the limits or risk damaging the car.🤷
Raised kerbs cause accidents - see above.
With the width of modern cars and the limited visibility it will be difficult to see exactly where the tyre is in relation to the line. Of course, this is less of an issue when there is a clearly visible wall. 😃
The technology has existed in tennis for decades and doesn't even need a multi-million pound ball packed with electronics.
is there no way of having a low-grip, high-abrasion surface for one car width
Isn't that what the visually painfull lines are for at Paul Ricard? A quick google tells me the blue is high grip but high tyre abrasion and red is extreme grip and extreme tyre abrasion. A mix of both track limits and safety to slow cars down before the barriers.
slowoldman
Ah. Thanks.
In the race, the deleted lap times are also a warning to the driver. Two deleted laps, then deleted lap and black flag, then 5s penalty.
What about a 3 inch deep pool of water around the track. Would catch motorbikers, would be shallow enough not to drown anyone in a flipped car, plus they could charge fans extra for a seat in the "Aramco LiquiMoly SplashZone™".
tomhoward
Full MemberRaised kerbs cause accidents – see above.
And below.
That was a sausage kerb again. Raised kerbs are the ones in the photo above used when every track seemed to have a different approach to kerb design
It’s remarkable how drivers can hit a line into the pits that indicates that they should be doing 80kph, or avoid crossing the pit lane exit when joining the track,
Could it be because in the pit lane they're doing 80kmph max in a straight line and on the track they could be doing 240kmph around a corner? 🤔
These are supposed to be the best drivers in the world and yet they can’t keep the cars between the white lines.
They’re hired for their ability to be right at the limit lap after lap, not to pass a driving test without the instructor needing to take the cap off his biro.
staying between two white lines often tens of metres apart seems to give some drivers a real issue
The width of the track at turn-in, apex and exit point is completely and utterly irrelevant. Track width largely only matters for overtaking. The racing line is (unless you’ve got two corners close together) the edge the track at those three points—and, in the dry, if you start thinking maybe you should use some other part of the track, you won’t win a karting race, let alone get into F1.
I’m curious about the concept of a “low grip, high abrasion” surface 🙂
They’re hired for their ability to be right at the limit lap after lap, not to pass a driving test without the instructor needing to take the cap off his biro.
exactly on the limit... not 2m past the track limits. Glad we agree
exactly on the limit… not 2m past the track limits
A full car’s width beyond the limit? Where was that happening then? Because I didn’t see anything like that.
Track is the black bit not the other bit, as I've said if we are now defining the track as any part of the circuit lets just do away with corners straight line everything and call it drag racing.
That’s a photo of someone who is right on the track limit. I mean, absolutely bang on it. Not two metres over it.
You seem to think that their job is to keep the car between the white lines. It’s not. It’s to be bang on the track limit. Which is currently defined as shown above*. If you define it as the white lines then you’ll have exactly the same issue of people occasionally going over the limit, it’ll just be in a slightly different place. In the same way that if you redefined the lines on a tennis court as out, you’d still need Hawkeye but you’d have to shove it an inch or two to the side.
* I can’t recall whether it’s defined as no part of the car touching the track as defined by the outer edge of the white line, or by no part of the car being inside the region that would result from extruding the track vertically—but that’s academic for the purposes of this discussion.
I’m curious about the concept of a “low grip, high abrasion” surface 🙂
Me too @Bez, and I suggested it.
I’m starting with the assumption that there isn’t a linear correlation between grip and tyre wear - I think I’m safe on that.
And now I need a better tyre / road surface engineer than I am.
I’m starting with the assumption that there isn’t a linear correlation between grip and tyre wear – I think I’m safe on that.
I was going to suggest razor blades parallel to the direction of travel, but that’s more laceration than abrasion 😉 and the motorbikers might not be too enthusiastic about it.
Agreed @Bez.
Except perpendicular to the direction of travel would allow the radial slide on a corner.
Bit aggressive?
Perhaps a less aggressive version of the same idea (radially grooved concrete?) might work as I described.
Formula 1: Former race director Michael Masi formally leaves FIA - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/62131946
Masi's gone.
I almost felt sorry for him by the end of it all, the pressure he was under must have been immense. But, still, Charlie Whiting managed to do the job, so it must have been possible
Slight change of subject
https://www.ft.com/content/e14a6d5c-4c94-47fc-9635-a089841357f3
Vjay Mallya serving a spell inside
Chip Ganassi has an option on Palou for next year. I assume they are going to want some money to release him.
https://twitter.com/CGRTeams/status/1546946366127087619
https://twitter.com/AlexPalou/status/1546996654343176192
https://twitter.com/McLarenF1/status/1546998384963248130
That's all a bit weird!
