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Schumacher went to Ferrari, developed the car and ended up with 7 WC's
Schumacher went to Mercedes, developed the car and gave Hamilton his 7 WC's
Hamilton has had it easy 😉
Schumacher went to Ferrari, developed the car and ended up with 7 WC’s
Schumacher went to Mercedes, developed the car and gave Hamilton his 7 WC’s
I think the mastermind was Ross Brawn - not Schumacher or Hamilton!
I think the mastermind was Ross Brawn – not Schumacher or Hamilton!
Check and see what Jean Todt was doing during all this.
Check and see what Jean Todt was doing during all this.
Michelle Yeoh?
Schumacher went to Ferrari, developed the car and ended up with 7 WC’s
Schumacher went to Mercedes, developed the car and gave Hamilton his 7 WC’s
I think people forget that Merc were the 5th best team on the grid when Lewis joined them.
Ferrari were never lower than 3rd in the constructors the whole time Schumacher raced for them.
So the idea that Schumacher built Ferrari into a race wining team and Hamilton was gifted a Championship winning car is bunkum
I remember Lewis signing for Merc and speaking to a guy at work about it, he was a massive Hamilton fan and couldn't get his head round it. I remember saying he'll endure a crap 2013 all because he knows they'll have the best engine on the grid for 2014. I wish I'd put money on it.
And behind the scenes it was Lauda that convinced them botht he make their respective moves....
I think people forget that Merc were the 5th best team on the grid when Lewis joined them
Yup, and even Nicko bagged 2 wins that year off Michael's hard work, Hamilton only got 1....
(STW Disclaimer: please note that my comments are entirely tongue in cheek before someone gets upset)
Check and see what Jean Todt was doing during all this.
And Rory Byrne.
Lewis signing for Mercedes for sure appeared a brave move from the outside! It was known at the time that they had been poaching some key personnel from top teams.... but I'm pretty sure no-one could have predicted their dominance ever since!
I wouldn't count them out when the new regs kick in next year either - despite their wind tunnel time handicap. I think they pre-empted that and have been working on the 2022 car for even longer than usual - perhaps accounting for their less dominant car recently? But will be interesting!
Absolutely LOVING McLarens resurgence.
Final laps for Lando and Lewis
Gutted for Lando, he looked close to tears after the race.
but I’m pretty sure no-one could have predicted their dominance ever since!
I still shudder remembering the first tests where it became very clear that only one brand had a decent power train
Never really understood why a driver who’s been employed to do precisely what he’s done for the last 4 seasons gets as much grief as he does.
Bottas had one job on Sunday and that was to make his Mercedes the widest thing in the world and hold max up for as much of the race as possible. He managed to do that for about 100m before letting him through as if he was the redbull number 2 driver. He has the opportunity to keep max out of the points but failed miserably
Mark Hughes has an analysis of the different setup choices. Merc and McLaren went for higher downforce setups for qualifying on the assumption that they wouldn't need to pass cars if they started from the front. Red Bull gave Max a low-drag setup for straight-line speed. Max could pass cars down the straight quite easily, but Bottas and Hamilton couldn't, even though the Merc was quicker over a whole lap. However, Max started on hard tyres and the low-downforce setup knackered these quickly whereas Lewis started on mediums but the higher-downforce setup meant these lasted longer than Max's hards.
If the qualifying had been dry, I think Hamilton would have taken pole easily and romped off into the distance if he could have stayed ahead on the first lap, or, if the rain had come earlier in the race, Max would have had no chance against the higher downforce cars. Just a matter of random luck with the rain.
Bottas had one job on Sunday
Sure, but he didn't have the right tool for that "one job"
What, a clue?
True.
I bet Mercedes can't wait for him to walk out of the door for the last time - based on last weekend, he's bringing nothing to the team any more.
Botas needs to watch out if he fails to consistently outscore Perez and allow Red Bull to catch up on the constructors championship.
In that situation I can see Merc showing him the door early and putting Russel into the car for the remainder of the season.
In that situation I can see Merc showing him the door early and putting Russel into the car for the remainder of the season
I'd love to see that! Can you imagine? Toto "now George, your only job is to keep Max behind you!" That would make for a fun end of season 😀
Merc are not going to dump Botta mid-season. Zero chance of that.
“ Sure, but he didn’t have the right tool for that “one job””
Alonso managed to keep a much faster car behind him for a few laps a few races ago. Plenty of drivers manage it.
I would not be impressed with his peformance if I was his new team - I don’t know what he thought he was doing letting Max by but it looked like a kid throwing his toys out of the pram.
Merc are not going to dump Botta mid-season. Zero chance of that.
Agree.
Blocking Verstappen isn't really what he needs to do most races, his primary job is to get amongst the front runners on a Saturday (which he does pretty regularly) to give Merc strategy options and take points off Perez on a Sunday.
If Hamilton can't win the drivers championship then Mercedes obviously want to win the constructors. They are odds on favourites for this because Bottas regularly outscores Perez
his primary job is to get amongst the front runners on a Saturday (which he does pretty regularly) to give Merc strategy options
and surely the ultimate end result of that is to stay in front of the Red Bulls so why let MV past so easily? I think he just thought "sod it!"
swavis
and surely the ultimate end result of that is to stay in front of the Red Bulls so why let MV past so easily? I think he just thought “sod it!”
Quite, I don't think he's doing himself any favours either. Okay so he has a deal for now, but why burn bridges by failing to do your job. All he's doing is making it look like he either cannot defend, or chooses not to and therefore is not following the teams instructions.
but why burn bridges by failing to do your job
His job is to help Mercedes wins the Constructors championship, and you do that by scoring points. He went from 16th on the grid to 5th. Given that he qualified 7th, that's a good result. I'd also imagine given where he started and how the race went in closing stages, Mercedes will be pleased with that.
so why let MV past so easily? I think he just thought “sod it!”
Bottas' race engineer has said that because it was colder than they expected both cars were having issues with understeer and neither of them couldn't get the front tyres up to temperature. Wolff has pretty much said the car wasn't good enough to overtake, and even on the closing laps Hamilton radio'd to say he couldn't follow the Mclaren closely enough to overtake it. Mercs plan relied on their speed to put them on pole and then prance off into the distance. That Bottas finished 5th was pretty much down to him and a bit of luck.
His job is to help Mercedes wins the Constructors championship, and you do that by scoring points. He went from 16th on the grid to 5th. Given that he qualified 7th, that’s a good result. I’d also imagine given where he started and how the race went in closing stages, Mercedes will be pleased with that.
He got lucky with the rain - he was trundling round in 14th before that, going nowhere.
He got lucky with the rain
As did Hamilton, and Norris was unlucky. Sometimes F1 is all about the luck or lack of it that comes your way.
You could argue, Hamilton wasn't that lucky with the rain. He'd have gained more points on Verestappen if he'd finished second and Verstappen stayed back in 7th.
Not sure why people are defending Bottas so much - he's been in the best car for 5 seasons now and only has 9 wins to his name. He should have been knocking out 4 or 5 wins a season at least if he was properly top-drawer.
He's a good No.2 and always will be, most of the drivers on the grid could bring that Merc home in the points but only a few can win consistently.
And Hamilton had managed to get into 2nd in the dry, without the lottery that the rain brought.
Edit - still more gutted for Lando though.
He’s a good No.2 and always will be
Which is what Merc pay him for
nickc
His job is to help Mercedes wins the Constructors championship, and you do that by scoring points. He went from 16th on the grid to 5th. Given that he qualified 7th, that’s a good result. I’d also imagine given where he started and how the race went in closing stages, Mercedes will be pleased with that.
Couldn't disagree more.
Horner basically said thanks to Valteri after the race for not holding up Max, it was an absolute joke of a performance. Before the rain, he was on for 14th place whereas Verstappen was up in 7th.
He's in one of the top two cars on the grid yet spent 10 laps behind Raikonnen in the second worst car, and I think Kimi might actually have been on older tyres as well.
All it says is either he won't follow orders and therefore not a team player, or his pace/lack of defence/lack of overtakes was genuine in which case he's not good enough for a top team.
link: https://www.planetf1.com/news/valtteri-bottas-very-fair-russian-gp/
Yeah, his "defence" against Max was pitiful, he might as well have stuck his hand out the cockpit and waved him through. I'm dubious there was an issue and I'm of the thinking they put him back there solely for the purpose of keeping Max behind and he failed that miserably. He needed to get his elbows out, weave around, block, do whatever was necessary within reason to keep him behind and he didn't. His "recovery" to 5th was largely down to luck and Merc using him to test the conditions/tyres so they could make the right call for Lewis.
He is very quick over one lap, no one can deny that, but his race craft is not up to the standard of the best. I mean look at Alonso keeping Lewis behind in Hungary, or the Alonso/Schumacher battles at Imola in 2005/2006. That is how to defend like your life depends on it.
All it says is either he won’t follow orders and therefore not a team player, or his pace/lack of defence/lack of overtakes was genuine in which case he’s not good enough for a top team.
or possibly that he had a setup issue
All it says is either he won’t follow orders and therefore not a team player
His engineer has said that the weather meant that the car was understeering because they couldn't get any heat in the front tyres, Wolff has said the car wasn't good enough to use for overtaking or defending, and Hamilton was on the radio telling the pits he couldn't even run close enough to Norris to overtake him. The car Bottas and Hamilton were driving on Sunday was fast enough but didn't handle all that well, The car MV was in was both v fast (low downforce set up) and was handling really well. Bottas had no chance to keep MV behind him...
mashr
or possibly that he had a setup issue
Maybe so, but that doesn't explain how he put up absolutely no defence to Max. He basically moved over and waved him through.
And not sure what to make of their comparison with Hamilton who was struggling to get past the mclarens which is a decent car with the best engine on the grid, equal age tyres and two very good drivers. As opposed to valteri who was struggling to get past back markers with crap engines and older tyres. I mean come on, the understeer won't have helped, but seriously, that was a mediocre performance. Do you honestly think if Max was in that Merc he would have been stuck behind Kimi for 10 laps?
The truth is if Hamilton, Norris, Max, Leclerc etc starts at the back, you'd not be hugely surprised if they ended up top 5, maybe even up on the podium. If Valteri starts at the back, he's on for 7th or 8th. He's quick over a lap and I like him as a person but he's just not top tier at racing.
Bottas had no chance to keep MV behind him…
That's no reason not to try though, Hamilton/Russel/Verstappen/Alonso/... in that car would have defended like crazy for as many corners as they could.
Merc have years of data on how Bottas compares to Hamilton. Their opinion is the only thing that matters. They seem to hold him in fairly high regard and respect him.
Bottas had no chance to keep MV behind him…
That's absolutely no excuse for not even trying.
Too late!
You do know that the Merc can't run that closely to cars in front because of it's design philosophy right? It relied on the aero rules that were revised for 2021. Whereas because of it's design philosophy, the rule changes made the RB a faster, and better handling car.
The 2021 Merc. is not the all-conquering beast that it has been in years past, it's compromised and struggles in traffic. Hence the reason MV can slice through the traffic (and the Aston martins as well for that matter, check out how many overtakes Vettel has done this year) and the likes of Bottas and Hamilton can't run close enough in traffic to pass cars that are slower (in theory) than they are. It's the same reason Hamilton struggled to get past the Mclaren as Bottas failed to get through the field. The car loses grip and slows down...
thols2
Free MemberMerc have years of data on how Bottas compares to Hamilton. Their opinion is the only thing that matters. They seem to hold him in fairly high regard and respect him.
Which is presumably why they have ditched him as soon as they have a competitor with two drivers performing well and a championship capable car? 😉
but that doesn’t explain how he put up absolutely no defence to Max
Do you honestly think that a driver as good as Bottas would "just let" MV through out of spite or something? or that he's not a good enough driver, despite routinely finishing 2nd to perhaps the GOAT of F1? seriously?
There's no doubt set up/car characteristics didn't help Bottas gain ground compared to Max. Max had a full on low-downforce set up specifically to help overtake. But that's not really the point many are making. The point is, other drivers would have made that Mercedes as wide as the Atlantic Ocean to keep Max behind. Valterri made it look like a puddle, let alone an ocean! Yes he is quick, yes on his day he can win races, but he could, and should, have done so much more to keep Verstappen behind and car set up has nothing to do that at all. If anything, handling difficulties should make it easier to keep him behind!
Is this the same Bottas that wiped out Max in Hungary?
Which is presumably why they have ditched him
No, they took a long time over the decision to replace him, they aren't sacking him because they're unhappy with his performance.
nickc
Do you honestly think that a driver as good as Bottas would “just let” MV through out of spite or something? or that he’s not a good enough driver, despite routinely finishing 2nd to perhaps the GOAT of F1? seriously?
Come on mate, look at the overtake on youtube. It looked like bottas had been given blue flags the way he let Max past.
It looked like bottas had been given blue flags the way he let Max past.
Bottas is on the racing line, he can't come off that line because if he does the car isn't going to go around the corner that's coming up, he might make the first bend, then it'll go straight on because the car won't turn in like MV 's will. and if he does come off that line, MV will just go around him regardless. The RB is much much faster, not only has it got the low drag advantage, he's also got DRS. His car is something like 20-25kph faster then Bottas' car at the point of overtake. Bottas isn't going to hold him up at that point, There's no F1 driver that would've been able to without a collision and that just isn't going to happen.
I think I'm on safe ground when I suggest that I don't think Bottas just said, "Ah, balls to it" 😂
nickc
The 2021 Merc. is not the all-conquering beast that it has been in years past, it’s compromised and struggles in traffic. Hence the reason MV can slice through the traffic (and the Aston martins as well for that matter, check out how many overtakes Vettel has done this year) and the likes of Bottas and Hamilton can’t run close enough in traffic to pass cars that are slower (in theory) than they are. It’s the same reason Hamilton struggled to get past the Mclaren as Bottas failed to get through the field. The car loses grip and slows down…
But none of that has anything to do with letting Max through at the earliest opportunity while Max was behind him - nothing to do with struggling to follow while in other cars' dirty air.
He could have held a more defensive line into the corner, but just took the normal racing line out wide & let Verstappen steam up the inside.
You could argue that it would have been a futile effort & that Max would have got past only a short way further up the road - and that is probably true - but he didn't even try to defend from Max at the first time of asking.
He could have held a more defensive line into the corner,
He didn't have enough grip, he wouldn't have got around the corner.
nickc
Bottas is on the racing line, he can’t come off that line because if he does the car isn’t going to go around the corner that’s coming up, he might make the first bend, then it’ll go straight on because the car won’t turn in like MV ‘s will. and if he does come off that line, MV will just go around him regardless. The RB is much much faster, not only has it got the low drag advantage, he’s also got DRS. His car is something like 20-25kph faster then Bottas’ car at the point of overtake. Bottas isn’t going to hold him up at that point, There’s no F1 driver that would’ve been able to without a collision and that just isn’t going to happen.
I think I’m on safe ground when I suggest that I don’t think Bottas just said, “Ah, balls to it” 😂
Imagine the positions are swapped, Max is in the Merc, Bottas behind in the RB.
Is Bottas overtaking Max? I think not. The Merc when driven by max would be 20 foot wide.
nickc
He didn’t have enough grip, he wouldn’t have got around the corner.
Eh?!
Perhaps; although I don't believe you can know that for sure - or maybe you are part of Bottas' engineering team?
But, he would have known Max was approaching & could have taken a defensive line earlier on the approach to the corner specifically to block a lunge from Max. Drivers do it all the time; some for several laps.
Yes, it might have (would have) compromised his exit & Max might have out-dragged him right away but at least he would have been trying to defend & the outcome was the same anyway so he might as well have given it a go.
He didn’t have enough grip, he wouldn’t have got around the corner.
That's how defensive lines work - compromise line, compromise speed through the turn, at least delay the pass 1 more corner. Doesn't matter how much grip you've got when you're always driving to the limit of adhesion on the normal line anyway
Is Bottas overtaking Max? I think not.
Because MV will just cause a crash and will sulk all the way back to the pits? So you're essentially saying MV managed the overtake because Bottas isn't a pouty little brat...seems legit.
BTW, Russell also had a rep in the lower formulas for being a bit crash happy in the same way the MV is, ie "I'm here; either back off or we'll crash" It'll be interesting to see how that goes down with Mercedes.
so he might as well have given it a go.
Genius,.
nickc
Genius,.
👍
Thanks!! 😂
nickc
Because MV will just cause a crash and will sulk all the way back to the pits? So you’re essentially saying MV managed the overtake because Bottas isn’t a pouty little brat…seems legit.
ffs 😂
no i'm saying max would have defended the position, as opposed to what bottas did which, if it wasn't in protest at merc taking a tactical engine penalty, then was just shite racing.
Anyway, have we done this?
[img] 
[/img]
^^^
90's BTCC was awesome!
Anyway, have we done this?
The list of openly despotic regimes that host F1 races is just beyond embarrassing now. It's like they did a mail shot to every autocratic dictator.
"Are you a despotic autocratic dictator who likes to torture political dissidents? Have you thought about hosting an F1 race to sport-wash your regime?"
These murderous bastards have and see what they have to say...
Yes, also the track layout looks naff, although I hear they may be doing a street circuit too.
90’s BTCC was awesome!
One of Murray’s very best quotes in that one, too 🙂
"I'm going for 1st says Cleland" 😀 Supertouring era BTCC rocked.
Back slightly on topic I couldn't understand why Merc took an engine swap rather than let VB defend further up the field in a better position to score points anyway TBH
I couldn’t understand why Merc took an engine swap rather than let VB defend further up the field in a better position to score points anyway
Maybe Bottas' engine really did have a problem and it wasn't a cunning plan to mess up Verstappen. As George Carlin said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
We did the GB rally for years, some fantastic memories.
Absolute balls out driving. Nothing more exhilarating than walking along a quiet forest stage and seconds later scrambling for safety as a car comes through completely sideways at 100mph+.
Completely stolen from twitter
WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS BY 2030:
Lewis Hamilton =
Max Verstappen =
Charles Leclerc =
Lando Norris =
George Russell =
Daniel Ricciardo =
Carlos Sainz =
Here is mine
Lewis Hamilton = 9
Max Verstappen = 3
Charles Leclerc = 1
Lando Norris = 0
George Russell = 2
Daniel Ricciardo = 0
Carlos Sainz = 0
Pierre Gasly = 1
Would be more interesting if you put which team you thought those drivers would have won them with.
Mine.
Lewis Hamilton = 8 Merc
Max Verstappen = 2 RB
Charles Leclerc = 1 Ferrari
Lando Norris = 1 Merc
George Russell = 1 x Merc, 1 x McLaren
Daniel Ricciardo = 0
Carlos Sainz = 0
Would be more interesting if you put which team you thought those drivers would have won them with.
Good point
Lewis Hamilton = 9 Merc
Max Verstappen = 3 RB
Charles Leclerc = 1 Ferr
Lando Norris = 0
George Russell = 2 Merc
Daniel Ricciardo = 0
Carlos Sainz = 0
Pierre Gasly = 1 Ferr
Can't see Hamilton winning another championship, although I do like to see records being broken in sport.
I can't be arsed making random guesses about years in the future. I think it's better to look at how well resourced the teams are to get some idea of who will do well under the new regs and then look at how their current drivers compare. I think five teams currently have the resources to potentially challenge for championships in the next few years: Merc, Red Bull, Ferrari, Renault, and McLaren. I think the others will take several years before they can even get to McLaren's level, let alone Merc.
Merc and Red Bull are extremely well resourced, with top class aero departments and simulation. Their engines seem to be very equal, but Merc will probably bring an upgrade for next year, whereas Honda have probably introduced everything they have. I think those two teams have to be considered joint favorites for the next few years. I'm going to say 2/3 chance that one of those teams will win for each of the next few years, so 33% chance each.
Including this year, that would give Verstappen about an 85% chance of at least one championship by the end of 2024, assuming he isn't challenged by a teammate.
Hamilton will probably retire at the end of 2023 and will have a very fast young teammate, I'll rate them as equal, so Hamilton has a 50% chance of a title this year and 17% for the next two years. That gives Hamilton about 65% chance of another title before he retires, including this year.
Russell should have a decent advantage over whoever replaces Hamilton for the first year of their pairing. That gives him roughly a 50% chance of a title by the end of 2024.
Ferrari have excellent facilities but management issues have left them a long way behind and their engine is weak. Next year's engine will be improved, but it's hard to see it getting ahead of the Merc engine. Renault are in a similar situation. McLaren have an excellent engine but it will take several years for their new windtunnel and simulator to come online. I'll rate those three teams as equal, so an 11% chance of winning a title. All three have strong driver pairings. It's impossible to know how the drivers will adapt to the new cars, so I'll just rate them all as equal pairings. That would give each of those drivers about a 15% chance of winning a championship by 2024, assuming Alonso doesn't retire, in which case Ocon's odds would improve a lot.
So, odds of winning at least one championship between now and the end of 2024:
Verstappen 85%
Hamilton 65%
Russell 50%
The Ferrari, McLaren, and Renault drivers 15% each.
I can’t be arsed providing a short answer so I'll give a really long one instead
😀 😀
Can't really argue with any of it though. Despite the regulation changes its hard to see past Merc or Red Bull for the next few years.
Although both Merc and RB are ahead because their MGU-H systems work really well, and those are going away soon with new rule changes, so you have to factor in that as well (due in 2026)
And the possibility of one of the VAG brands joining in. Could be fun times ahead
And the possibility of one of the VAG brands joining in. Could be fun times ahead
If they join as a brand new manufacturer then happy days - I'm more inclined to think they'll just take over the engines from Red Bull in a rebadging exercise. So we'll still have the same number of engine suppliers. Honda may have some intellectual rights clauses though.
If they join as a brand new manufacturer then happy days – I’m more inclined to think they’ll just take over the engines from Red Bull in a rebadging exercise.
They won't join until the new engine regulations take effect. The current engines will be scrapped and everyone will have to start again from a clean sheet of paper. Honda own the IP to the current Red Bull engine so Red Bull can't just hand that over to someone else. On top of that, VW and Porsche aren't going to pay someone else to build engines for them, they will want to do it in-house.
andrewh
Free Member
This is how you do it Valteri https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QI8litf5a2s/blockquote >
This is amazing!!
On top of that, VW and Porsche aren’t going to pay someone else to build engines for them, they will want to do it in-house.
Mercedes paid Ilmor to build their engines for many years, then bought the company!
I can easily see Red Bull trying to palm their newly acquired engine division off to VAG.
I can easily see Red Bull trying to palm their newly acquired engine division off to VAG.
If Honda have any sense they've already precluded that as part of the deal to allow RBR to continue to use their designs.
I can easily see Red Bull trying to palm their newly acquired engine division off to VAG.
VW sell about 10 million cars per year and make about $1000 profit per vehicle, so about $10 billion in profit. Their profit is about twice what Red Bull does in turnover, but Red Bull's product is basically caffeinated sugar water, so most of their costs are marketing and they are incredibly profitable. However, they have the best aerodynamics department in F1. VW don't need a Red Bull engine, they have the resources and engineers to build engines, the only thing Red Bull have is Adrian Newey and a first-class aero department.
Qatar own quite a bit of VW shares as well, and they've just signed a deal for what, 10 years of racing? I'd imagine a favourable change of engine spec was part of the negotiation.
