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Helmut now talking about getting lawyers involved! What a dick. He wants to change the rules because his pet project didn’t win. Masi has stated that the stewards only look at the incident itself and not the consequences of it. In which case Perez’s 2x 5 seconds penalties in Austria should have set a precendent for Hamilton surely? The hypocrisy is strong with this one (from Marko, no the stewards).
God they're such a dislikable bunch of ****s
If Max had taken a different line he’d have finished first or second. I believe that Max knew he had to be ahead of Lewis at the end of the first lap to disrupt the Mercedes strategy and that was all he had on his mind.
If that was his mindset, then he won't be a world champion with that attitude. He proved less than 24 hours earlier that the Red Bull easily had the Merc covered for pace and he had far, far more to lose than gain by fighting that hard. Let Lewis take the corner and the position and get him back later. But no, he let his ego get in the way. There is zero shame in playing the long game and not playing every corner like it needs to fought over tooth and nail like it's your last. Because as he's now proved thanks to his attitude, it was his last corner.
Helmut - clue is in the name there
What a complete Skid-Marko. But then we knew that. Tit.
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that when Russell understeered into Carlos Sainz on Saturday, he was given a much more severe penalty, a 3 place grid drop.
I think it was because the stewards decided that Russell was entirely at fault, whereas they decided that Verstappen had an amount of culpability in the Hamiltion/Verstappen incident.
At that speed on that corner if Lewis hit the apex perfectly I think a crash was still gonna happen, just the other way round, Max was heading to hug that kerb regardless, a car and a half was about to become a tyre and a half in about a second so where exactly could Lewis go.
I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned that when Russell understeered into Carlos Sainz on Saturday, he was given a much more severe penalty, a 3 place grid drop.
Russell got a grid penalty because the sprint race was effectively an extended qualifying session.
Grid place penalty are normally dished out as 3, 5 or 10 place penalties so Russell's penalty was not particularly severe
It all boils down to three things:
Max thinks he's born to win the World Championship so should get Special treatment.
Horner thinks he's special thanks to those 4 Constructor's Championships so should be treated as Special, similar to Ferrari have been historically.
Helmut thinks he's created a Special team with a Special manager and a Special driver so should be sweeping up every trophy.
What the three of them fail to realise is that the only thing Special about them is the way they think they're Special. With all these outbursts and threats of Legal action I would laugh my arse off if the FIA charged them with bringing the sport into disrepute!
Going forward for Verstappen, every movement of the steering wheel he makes is going to come under scrutiny, get used to 'Max Cam', the commemtators are going to have a field day.
Max is also going to find it much more difficult coming out into traffic after pit stops as well, the mid field are going to feel a lot less obliged to let him pass when he's weaving all over the place. In the past they would have been more cautious, as getting involved in an incident with one of the big guns would have been seen as bad form. Not any more, now all the drivers will be elbows out with Max around.
Marco and Horner have just heaped a ton of unnecessary pressure on their boy, let's see if he can take it.
Max has been there before with his weaving under braking, I don’t think having his steering inputs scrutinised again will bother him in the slightest.
Max thinks he’s born to win the World Championship so should get Special treatment.
I don't think he does, of All the folk involved from RB in this nonsense, he's been the least vocal.
From James Allison to BBC Sport…
But Allison said the FIA's own guidelines for race stewards gave Hamilton the right to make the attempt and not give way to Verstappen.
In a video released by Mercedes reviewing the British Grand Prix weekend, he added: "If you are overtaking on the inside of the corner, then the guidance requires that you are substantially alongside as you arrive at the corner. It is not required that you are ahead.
"Lewis was definitely substantially alongside. He had his front axle well beyond the midpoint of Verstappen's car.
"And it requires that you must be able to make the corner. By 'make the corner', it means go round the corner and not leave the track or lose control of the car.
"If you can go round the corner, if you are substantially alongside the other car, then the corner is yours.
"What that means is not that you have to emerge in the lead; it means that you do not have to cede your position, you do not have to back off and the other car has a duty to avoid hitting you.
"So, if you follow the notes that are provided to the FIA stewards and you look frame by frame at what happened with Lewis, he was substantially alongside, he absolutely would have made the corner and indeed did make the corner and therefore there was no need for him to cede any ground."
Allison added the speed of Copse corner, which is taken at 190mph in an F1 car, "makes no difference". "Lewis made two further overtakes at Copse using exactly the same guidance and there wasn't a contact in either of those cases," he said.
In their ruling, the stewards mentioned Hamilton "did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside" and "did not avoid contact".
But Allison said: "I can understand people, who maybe don't understand there is no obligation on you to hit the apex of the corner, that you don't have to have your whole car in front of the other car.
"I can understand that, if you are seeing it from that perspective, you might think that the car coming from behind has some sort of obligation to make sure that no crashes take place. But if you look at the stewarding document then I think that Lewis did nothing wrong."
Obviously he’s not impartial, but he’s a lot more articulate in his assessment than Horner has been.
Quite right: Mercedes went to Masi with the FIA’s own documentation to support their case. Horner, meanwhile, claimed to Masi that Hamilton “was never anywhere near alongside” (which is demonstrably untrue) and Wheatley didn’t seem to manage anything more substantial than “I’m very angry about it” (boo hoo, being angry doesn’t change the rules).
I have to confess that in the immediate aftermath I expected/hoped Hamilton to be a bit more subdued after the race in the circumstances, but the more this rumbles on and the more camera angles come to light and so on, the more he looks entirely justified and rational while Red Bull just seem to be making fools of themselves.
Interestingly, further down the BBC article:
Opinion from current and former drivers on the incident has been split.
Two-time champion Fernando Alonso and Leclerc both said it was a 'racing incident' in which neither driver was more to blame than the other.
But ex-Red Bull drivers Mark Webber and David Coulthard both said in their roles as Channel 4 pundits that Hamilton was at fault.
I can’t guarantee that I didn’t make any small mistakes when reproducing that text, sorry if I did.
😀 you might have subconsciously made it more accurate, but that’s all.
Just checking that you meant...
Opinion from current and former drivers on the incident has been split.
Two-time champion Fernando Alonso and Leclerc both said it was a ‘racing incident’ in which neither driver was more to blame than the other.
But ex-Red Bull drivers Mark Webber and David Coulthard, who are both currently sponsored by and working for Red Bull, said in their roles as Channel 4 pundits that Hamilton was at fault.
https://destination.redbull.com/en/racing-experience-in-monaco-motorsport-david-coulthard/
https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/athlete/mark-webber
Listening to the Chequered Flag podcast yesterday, and they all agreed that it was a racing incident. They also said that this is the moment when the championship will get serious, and the mud slinging will be almost as entertaining as the on track action.IMHO Mercedes are more measured in that department than Red Bull.
some-one point Helmut in the direction of this...
Mind you, it's not hard to find Max expecting folk to get out of his way...
Tapping on an imaginary thumbs up symbol, good find.
I like F1 and have watched it for a lot of years but good lord this storm in a teacup crap is ridiculous.
Two drivers went for the same corner, there was a crash.
It's part of racing, it should be part of racing.
Move on.
Lol, even Yamamoto has said it's a racing incident now
Pushing for penalties for your opponent is part of the game, but the legal threats and Horner doing the "look how they massacred my boy" bit just makes them look like complete chunts
RedBull/CH could have put some pressure on Lewis by calling the move 'clumsy' or even 'slightly desperate' (not that Lewis is troubled much by pressure) but instead they've gone all high ground and it's totally backfired on them.
As said, it's a shame Spa isn't the next round...
Nice find. I’d been racking my brains for the most similar move by Max—knew there must be one but hadn’t recalled that one. It’s a dead ringer, other than that in Max’s example (hey Christian) he actually was “never anywhere near alongside” and therefore the corner was never his (though I’m not sure when the guidance came in).
Red Bullshit comments on Max vs Lance:
"Is this guy blind? What the **** is wrong with him?" said a seething Verstappen on team radio after the contact.
Christian Horner [was] adamant that Verstappen shouldn't receive a penalty as he was on the inside … “if that were a race, Max would have been deemed to be up the inside so therefore the car on the outside should have given way.”
Oh dear, Christian. What a complete knob.
Cry-baby spice.
What are the odds that David Coulthard and Mark Webber have recieved an email from Channel 4 reminding them that for the duration of the race weekend they are employed by them and not Red Bull?
And what are the odds that the C4 editing team are being paid overtime to pit together a compilation of clips like the one above, ready for broadcast When the teams rock up in Hungary?
IIRC isn't it Coulthards production company ?
Can we just start a new thread for people to whinge about Red Bull's whinging?
[quote=WorldClassAccident]
Is this discussion still going on?
I use this thread to catch up on any interesting inside info but the last three screens seem to be the same thing with neither view being willing to change.
1) They were racing
2) They are both very good racers
3) They turned a corner
4) There was contact
5) Either could have backed out
6) Neither did
7) Hamilton was lightly penalised because on balance it was slightly more his fault
8) It wasn’t a deliberate ramming, professional foul or murder attempt
9) Move on
If anyone should know its our very own WCA
I like F1 and have watched it for a lot of years but good lord this storm in a teacup crap is ridiculous.
Is it because it was the only interesting thing to happen in the race? (I picked my guitar up after about 30 minutes and wasn't paying a huge amount of attention for the next 30, when it looked like nothing much had changed. I may have missed interesting bits....)
IIRC isn’t it Coulthards production company ?
Yup. He's down as a founder and director. Along with a certain Jake Humphrey.
mashr,
Feel free to start a new thread of your own for people who want to whinge about people who want to comment on Red Bull's whinging on an F1 thread. No ones stopping you.
Or you could start a thread about the absence of any correlation between sport, politics and commerce.
The thing about sport is that it's not about sport.
ffs, Inkster move on, you're now making things up unless you want to tell me where I said there was no link. Unless you'd rather single out Hamilton as the only driver not allowed to be publicly critised? Singling people out for special treatment always goes well
“if that were a race, Max would have been deemed to be up the inside so therefore the car on the outside should have given way.”
.....but, but, chucking a wheel up the inside is tantamount to attempted murder! Or you might send another driver to hospital for a precautionary check up.....
Ha, ha, bang to rights Horner!!😂😂
Don't forget to NOT watch any Red Bull Hardline coverage to punish the filthy sugar and bull semen purveyors even more.
Had Hamilton done a Bottas post penalty and not made up the places nobody would be talking about it now.
Think that's part of the issue. If you get deemed 51% at fault, then the highest place you should be able to finish is no higher than the finishing position of the one that is less at fault (even after serving that penalty and making a comeback)
At least that's the way I decipher Horner's amateur rants.
Would be interesting to see what the final outcome of other races would be if penalties dished out had that constraint.
Mashr,
I think you posted in response to one of my posts that race had nothing to do with Horners comments. I merely pointed out that intentions have nothing to do with it, outcomes do.
I'm not suggesting that Hamilton be immune from criticism though I understand that it's a pastime for many.
It's ironic that you ask that I move on because I think I already have by discussing the outcomes of red Bull's actions (both actual and forthcoming) rather than getting distracted by the minutiae of a racing incident whose verdict is unlikely to be changed
By obsessing about what happened on the track there is a danger we ignore the elephant in the room. What many thinking is how this relates to '# we race as one' and the broader BLM issues that Lewis Hamilton has raised.
We all know the right wing has it's tails between it's legs after disgracing themselves over the Euro's and they were gagging to get back to situation normal, with Raheem Sterling off limits they are looking to re-annoint Lewis as the most hated one. Watching Lewis parade the flag around the circuit boiled their piss till steam started coming out of their ears.
In a couple of weeks the technicalities of the incident will be forgotten about and we'll all be talking about how the fans at the Dutch and Italian races (and many other European circuits) greet Lewis Hamilton as he steps up to the podium. And many will be asking if Red Bull aren't at least a little bit responsible for cultivating those particular cauldrons of hate.
I'm sure 100% of Hamilton fans are Hamilton fans but I do wonder what percentage of Verstappen fans aren't really his fans but Hamilton Haters at heart. It's just a thought....
Mashr,
I think you posted in response to one of my posts that race had nothing to do with Horners comments. I merely pointed out that intentions have nothing to do with it, outcomes do.
No, I posted that your couldn't compare Horner to Patel as per the narrative that the particular poster was trying to start, you then took things in your own direction and wont let it go.
Oh just get a room, you two
Anyone got £10,000 knocking around they could lend us!...
[img] https://drivetribe.imgix.net/YuAbGSPyQ76hO1Hh-eBc8w?w=2050&h=1153&auto=format,compress&fit=crop&crop=faces&dpr=2&q=50 [/img]
If you get deemed 51% at fault, then the highest place you should be able to finish is no higher than the finishing position of the one that is less at fault (even after serving that penalty and making a comeback)
This makes no sense at all. So essentially after just one incident on any lap with another driver, you shouldn't be able to race that driver after that? Daft position, surely?
Ralf Schumacher offers wild theory on why Mercedes resigned Hamilton 😁
https://f1i.com/news/413102-schumacher-offers-wild-theory-on-why-mercedes-resigned-hamilton.html?
Hmm, it's not as wild a theory as I was hoping...
Anyone got £10,000 knocking around they could lend us!…
It's OK, they let you pay in four installments
Ralf Schumacher offers wild theory on why Mercedes resigned Hamilton
I think that I called that one a few pages back.
I reckon that Mick goes out of his way to avoid his uncle Ralf at parties.
Ralf, Nico, Jacques, Pablo - shame their driving skills didn't match their new found self promotion skills. I'd stick em on a slow boat to nowhere with Eddie Jordan, and maybe Horner as a bonus.
The always entertaining Jacques Villeneuve is our usual go-to source for silly comments, although to be fair to the 1997 F1 world champion, his judgments are often rooted in an ounce of common sense.
But Ralf Schumacher is close to overhauling the Canadian as F1's top banana when it comes to loony opinions or world theories.
I think they’ve got the measure of him.
Ralf Schumacher offers wild theory on why Mercedes resigned Hamilton
My initial thought on seeing this was what? Then I realised, "re-signed".
Looks like Windbag Horner is doubling down on the aftermath of the crash saying it’s costing them millions to replace what was destroyed.
If he’s looking for sympathy he won’t get any from me.
What a douchebag.
Looks like Windbag Horner is doubling down on the aftermath of the crash saying it’s costing them millions to replace what was destroyed.
If he’s looking for sympathy he won’t get any from me.
What a douchebag.
He should take it out of Verstappen's wages.
Horner’s column continues the dual themes of untruths…
Hamilton braked late and overshot the corner.
…and self-contradiction:
[Max] is determined to put this incident behind him and use it as added motivation for the rest of the season, as are we.
…
[We] have the right to request a review. We are therefore still looking at the evidence and considering all of our sporting options.
Have to say I’ve lost all respect for Red Bull in the past week. Good job Adrian Newey hasn’t seemed to have joined the chorus, I’d be disappointed to lose respect for him as well.
Have to say I’ve lost all respect for Red Bull in the past week.
Yep. They seem to have lost their minds over this. A bit of moaning about a ref's decision is normal, this is just pathetic.
i’d not realized that the repair bill will come out of the happed budget. $1.8 million. perhaps this is explains the constant complaining?
though, it would’ve great if the outlets would stop giving this coverage. it’s dull. i appreciate the irony of that statement
Surprise, surprise - it costs a lot of money to repair a trashed racing car. They’re acting like they’re new boys to F1.
They really are knobbers of the highest order.
Suprised Horner doesn't march over to Toto with a hand written bill, he's that much of stroppy whinging knob. Mind you, If I had to go home to an annoying ginger spice I don't think I'd have a sunny disposition either.
Suprised Horner doesn’t march over to Toto with a hand written bill, he’s that much of stroppy whinging knob.
If he does, i hope it’s during a televised interview.
by “happed budget” in my last post i meant “capped budget”
Levels it out a bit, or is that car more wrecked than Bottas's one from Monza?
He should take it out of Verstappen’s wages.
Verstappen may think twice before throwing the car into a tight spot.
is that car more wrecked than Bottas’s one from Monza?
I think Bottas' tub and engine were ok, weren't they? Apparently, Verstappen's tub is a write off and they don't know how much of the power unit can be salvaged. I suspect engine penalties will be their biggest concern.
Bottas chassis was a write off. Hence he got a new one that LH borrowed... Not usually an issue but they have a cost cap this year.
It’s actually quite interesting to see the change in social media comments since the race. At the start everyone seemed to be against LH - no doubt stirred up by C4 commentary and Windbag Horners bleating. Mercedes stayed relatively silent compared to the RB massive.
Then the racist stuff against LH started and RB said it was unacceptable but I think a lot of people put 2 and 2 together and saw they weren’t helping.
After that Windbag/RB could have kept quiet and it would probably have still looked good for them but they doubled down on the complaints with legal action/cost of repairs etc etc and the tide turned. They went past the usual F1 complaints and defence and fans knew it.
Now RB are experiencing a bit of backlash with a lot more people telling them to shut up about it.
LH has kept quiet and I reckon it’ll help him no end. He is always asking about the limits he can work up to and they seem to have changed a bit again to being more strict. He’s seen this time and time again and it will fuel him (and Mercedes). He wiser and cleverer (and more skilled IMHO and has been from his first race) than MV.
MV I reckon will probably be pushed back into being an angry spoilt driver again which will do him no good. It’s almost as if RB are being like a parent who buys their kids present even when they behave badly and it makes things worse. Merc (Toto) seem to want to work with drivers to bring the best out in the them but I reckon wouldn’t be afraid to lay the law down for the team.
I’m almost prepared to bet that LH wins his eight title this year and MV gets banned for a race for some sort of crash he causes or assault off track on someone else.
How many can you get
https://www.sporcle.com/games/usertimely76/formula-1-gp-drivers-2001-2021
63 for me
Isn't there a song from the film Frozen for all of this?! I suspect they have somewhere around zero chance of succeeding and are merely trying to unsettle Merc before this weekend...
Karen Horner.
I’ve warmed to Max this year, but my hatred for Red Bull grows daily.
Has anyone shown CH the footage of Max taking Stroll out yet? What a sad man! Still, next years Drive to survive should be a good watch 😀
Reading here it looks like they actually lodged the appeal on 23 July and have just been pissing about in public pretending they don't know whether they are going to do it or not. Doesn't make me like them any more to be fair 😀
is it possible for it go 'against' them and LH have his penalty removed or something?
Have his penalty removed so he wins the race by a bigger margin? Would be kinda funny I suppose
Penalties have been changed in the past on appeal - IIRC Irvine protested a 1 race ban for causing an accident in Brazil and on review they increased it to a 3 race ban. 🙂
You can't remove a penalty that's already been served.
I’ve warmed to Max this year, but my hatred for Red Bull grows daily.
Yeah this.
I was even willing to give Horner's hyperbole on race day the benefit of the doubt, but to carry on in the same vein nearly 2 weeks after the incident. I hope Hamilton stuffs Verstappen at Hungary
I hope Hamilton stuffs Verstappen at Hungary
I hope Max completely loses his shit and subsequently blows a winning position and takes himself out of the race by being an idiot without any third party involvement at all 🙂
Penalties have been changed in the past on appeal – IIRC Irvine protested a 1 race ban for causing an accident in Brazil and on review they increased it to a 3 race ban.
One ban for the accident, two for being Eddie Irvine?
I hope Max completely loses his shit and subsequently blows a winning position and takes himself out of the race by
being an idiot without any third party involvement at allthrowing a wheel up the inside of Mazepin on the most Copse-like corner at the Hungaroring and Mazepin turning in on him and Max getting a 10 second penalty that costs him a podium.
Purely to see what Histrionics Corner has to say about the matter.
Let’s keep our fingers crossed!
Karen Horner.
Can we all appreciate this new nickname a bit more please? 😂😂
Well, “[Max] is determined to put this incident behind him, as are we,” as Horner said the day they filed their official whinge. What a bell end.
Can’t see that they have a leg to stand on, anyway: chances of any new and significant evidence seem roughly nil. Toto should just turn up and play a video of Horner’s interview at Portimao last year and then walk out.
