If Merc appeal is Max still awarded the title at the FIA gala on Thursday or do they have to make it a provisional award or 'subject to appeal'. Once they've handed over the prize it's going to be even harder for them to admit any sort of error, let alone attempt to rectify it.
I asked Masi and he said the result is final. No, wait - it's provisional. No - final. No, it's subject to....
Etc etc etc
To my mind there was only 1 way to end that race fairly and that was to allow the race to continue for the last lap with the backmarkers in place. That way Max had exactly the same obstacles that Lewis had encountered during the previous 10 laps.
This practice of clearing the backmarkers is completely unfair to the lead driver who has had to forge the way through and it's this that should be stopped.
I will admit that I find Max hateful. Yes he's fast but his behaviour when interacting with other cars goes against every thing I admire in motorsport. He should have been penalised multiple times during his F1 career in a bid to temper his "optimism" in overtakes. I can't help thinking his fast tracking to F1 and general wunderkind treatment has just emboldened him and reinforced that it's ok do do this stuff. The more he does it the more normal it becomes. Soon all motor racing will look like bumper cars.
This practice of clearing the backmarkers is completely unfair
It's not though. Instead of potentially having a load of backmarkers who are spread out and easy to pass, you now have a group of them desperately fighting their own battle and a much more ropey proposition. So you've inadvertently penalised the guy trying to get through them.
So you’ve inadvertently penalised the guy trying to get through them.
Someone's always going to lose out but giving free pass to the guy behind is a **** take. The back markers are bunched together agreed but then they are together, they know the "leader" are behind them and to expect and overtake and in this case the 2nd place guy is a hell of a lot closer than he was before the incident. NOTHING to complain about - unless you're in 2nd with a massive tyre advantage.
a group of them desperately fighting their own battle and a much more ropey proposition.
The modern blue flag rules make that less of an issue though, as it's a slam dunk penalty if they ignore too many.
The following is quoted from Reddit:
The FIA has interpreted 15.3 to mean the following:
(15.3) allows the Race Director to control the use of the safety car, which in our determination includes its deployment and withdrawal.
In context however, it’s clear that 15.3 is meant only to relate to the RD’s authority to override decisions made by the clerk of the course. Neither 15.3 nor any other article of the sporting code say that the RD in any way “controls the use of the safety car”, nor is there any clause granting the RD plenary authority to override any regulation or article of the sporting code. Again, 15.3 only allows the RD to override the clerks decisions regarding deployment or withdrawal of the SC. The clerk and RD’s decisions must be compliant with the sporting code, but the decisions are not the sporting code itself.
This is how I read it too. The rule is intended to explain the relationship of authority between the Race Directory and the Clerk of the Course, and that in those situation listed the RD has Primacy or "overriding authority" over the Clark of the Course.
Interpreting it to mean the Race Director has the authority to apply or disapply any other rules within the Sporting Regulations in an unprecedented way seems a bit of a stretch, to say the least.
If Merc appeal is Max still awarded the title at the FIA gala on Thursday or do they have to make it a provisional award or ‘subject to appeal’.
I suspect what they’ll do is let Max shuffle politely past everyone along his row of seats to make his way to the stage, then just as he’s getting to the steps they’ll ask everyone in Lewis’s row to move out of the way, give him a shiny pair of running spikes and let him leg it up onto the stage and snatch the trophy at the last moment 😉
The modern blue flag rules make that less of an issue though, as it’s a slam dunk penalty if they ignore too many.
Buy that point you’ve ruined the car behinds race.
As said before, the current rules are probably the best compromise. The real issue to be fixed is the consistency
I suspect what they’ll do is let Max shuffle politely past everyone along his row of seats to make his way to the stage, then just as he’s getting to the steps they’ll ask everyone in Lewis’s row to move out of the way, give him a shiny pair of running spikes and let him leg it up onto the stage and snatch the trophy at the last moment 😉
👌🏼
Anyway - here's George Russell in an 18" wheeled Mercedes!... 🙂
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https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/14/f1-teams-begin-post-season-test-in-abu-dhabi-2/
And then Lattifi spills his drink and the whole thing collapses into farce
And Bottas is in the Christmas spirit!...
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Speeder
Full Member
Someone’s always going to lose out but giving free pass to the guy behind is a **** take
It only looks like a piss take right at the end of the race, and when the car behind has new tyres. Any other time it looks like getting people who aren't involved in the race out of the way. Most of the time after a safety car the faster car still cruises off like they did the first time round, and having different rules for different parts of the race isn't going to help anyone
The back markers are always involved in the race. The leader has to encounter them first and it's unreasonable to hand an advantage to those leaders that fall behind them when they've already been given the added advantage of a closed gap. The lapped cars will be well aware the leaders are right behind them and who gives a **** if the guy in 19th loses a place because he confused the guy in 20th with one of the leaders and lets him past instead?
The safety car shouldn't be seen as an opportunity to reset the race to zero as it seems to have become.
Thought experiment:
What if the safety car had been deployed with 10 laps to go instead of 5? Same number of laps under the safety car, so instead of a 1 lap sprint there is now 6?
What if the safety car had been deployed with 10 laps to go instead of 5? Same number of laps under the safety car, so instead of a 1 lap sprint there is now 6?
They would have had time to do it properly. Let all lapped cars through, one more lap under SC, then we race.
MV would have won because he'd got new tyres, lucky, but sometimes that's how it goes.
It's not the result being questioned, it's the method used to achieve it.
[Edit ] that sounds wrong, I don't think it was fixed to favour a particular driver, just fixed to get get last lap shootout, I'm with people like Croft on this, massive cock up rather than conspiracy
Thought experiment:
What if the safety car had been deployed with 10 laps to go instead of 5? Same number of laps under the safety car, so instead of a 1 lap sprint there is now 6?
I think Mercedes would've either pitted Hamilton first or in response to Verstappen pitting.
Lewis had already shown that the Merc had better pace than the Redbull. They'd have been fairly confident that Lewis could take Max on fresh tyres with 5 laps to do it.
As it stood with only 5 laps to go, Hamilton could only lose by pitting either first or after Max. There was very little likelihood that the Williams would be cleared, the cars unlapped and the race ready to restart in 5 laps.
I agree - 10 laps to go, you'd pit from P1 safe in the knowledge that the SC would leave at least 4-5 laps to regain the position if P2 took the risk to stay out. That's the nub of this, 5 laps was not enough time to clear the wreckage, allow cars to unlap and start - so Merc played it safe, whereas Max had nothing to lose
Speeder
Full MemberThe back markers are always involved in the race. The leader has to encounter them first and it’s unreasonable to hand an advantage to those leaders that fall behind them when they’ve already been given the added advantage of a closed gap. The lapped cars will be well aware the leaders are right behind them and who gives a **** if the guy in 19th loses a place because he confused the guy in 20th with one of the leaders and lets him past instead?
The safety car shouldn’t be seen as an opportunity to reset the race to zero as it seems to have become.
You do realise the calibre of drivers that were let through on Sunday? These weren't tail-end bimblers. Going back to my earlier point, 5 cars that were spaced out has turned into a 5 car battle. Yes blue flags will be waved but we've all seen countless times where someone is held up by the lapped cars having their own fight (and with the amount of dirty air these days, held up can mean not even right up against the gearbox). Safety car is what it is, get the extra obstacles out of the way. Or, think of it this way - if they put out the red flag would you expect the same backmarkers to line up in between the front runners on the grid?
I haven't watched F1 since Senna died. My son has been watching it and with all the hype and it being on council telly I decided to watch the end. Having watched it and being thoroughly confused, I won't be watching again. What a joke.
I’m with people like Croft on this, massive cock up rather than conspiracy
I think so too. I genuinely think Masi thought he was doing the right thing. I don't t think for a minute he was trying to benefit Red Bull or penalise Mercedes, I think he was just trying to finish the season of with racing rather than behind a safety car.
And Lewis had to lap them in exactly that fighting (for a backmarker place) situation - no difference whatsoever. Patently unfair to give Max a pass all in that situation. He should be exposed to the same risks. No-one who gets into F1 is a poor driver.
Its all pointless speculation anyway. I agree that they would have probably pulled Lewis in. It just shows how the timing of the safety car is crucial. It occurred in a maybe 2 or 3 lap window where Mercedes were screwed wither way.
Earlier and they pit and have a good chance of passing Verstappen (although no guarantees). Later and the race definitely finishes under the safety car.
Not withstanding the fact that Masi's interperation of the rules and decision making was piss poor. He's made some questionalbe judgements in that past too. I think ultimately dumb luck is the main thing that changed the race.
No-one who gets into F1 is a poor driver
Al Pease holds the dubious record of being the only driver to be disqualified for going too slowly...
Nissany wasn't rapid either!
But I get your point, even Mazapin would leave pretty much everyone on here for dead (we must have decent F3 driver or something amongst our ranks surely?) it's degrees of greatness
Speeder
Full MemberAnd Lewis had to lap them in exactly that fighting
There wasn’t a nose to tail 5 car battle when Lewis passed them.
As said again and again. Safety car isn’t perfect but it’s generally adequate, and someone will always win and lose out of it. Even if the 5 cars had been left in, if they’d all pulled out of the way by turn 1 would you still find that it was unfair as Hamilton’s lead had gone to nothing
MV would have won because he’d got new tyres, lucky, but sometimes that’s how it goes.
It’s not the result being questioned, it’s the method used to achieve it.
Exactly this. At least the regs would have been applied correctly and there would be no questioning the result. I also agree that Merc would have brought in Lewis in that case.
The issue for me is not that Max ended up on Lewis’s tail—that’s absolutely what is expected from a safety car. The issue is that Max had his tail protected by the unprecedented decision to selectively dictate which cars would be cleared out of the way. That’s the biggest and most worrying cock-up here—for my money even bigger than the call to bring the safety car in a lap early.
For me it's not even that. It's that RB rolled the dice on a tyre change knowing that it would be absolutely borderline on whether the safetycar would be recalled in sufficient time to race, then lobbied Massi to bend the rules for them to have the single lap required to try and race for the win and not only did he relent, he did so in a way which was clearly intended to deliver the best chance of that 1 lap of racing. He couldn't possibly have been more accommodating to RB and in ANY other race, wouldn't have done so. It would have ended behind the safety car.
If Mercedes had KNOWN there would be a single lap of racing - would they have pitted?
The rules are there to ensure fairness in ALL circumstances. They should be there to prevent exactly this kind of exceptionalism based upon expectations/lobbying.
Hmm, McLaren the only team to get a 1-2. Kinda shows how far ahead of their teammates Hamilton and Verstappen are.
https://twitter.com/MattyWTF1/status/1470380264488673282
I think Masi just crumbled under the pressure. Based on the rules, the race/season was going to finish under the SC, and he couldn’t handle this and shat his pants. I suspect we’ve all done this at some point…
That being said, the interesting part is what the FIA will do about it now, given that we have a big turd on the floor and it stinks…
I couldn't put it better myself
Massi should have had the stones to say to Red Bull "We either go racing now (with the lapped cars in place) or everyone un-laps themselves and we finish under the SC" Neither of those is controversial or really open to challenge.
In the first scenario Red Bull have been gifted an admittedly very slight chance of attacking Hamilton. In the second they gain no advantage but, by their own admission, they were losing the race anyway.
If Mercedes had KNOWN there would be a single lap of racing – would they have pitted?
That's the nub of it - one lap, with lapped cars cleared between first and second? Damn straight they would.
Shall we have a change of subject for a bit? Winners and losers this year?
My drivers of the year last year were Perez and Gasly, honourable mention for Norris. This year I think Sainz and Gasly and, although it sounds odd to say it about a quadruple world champ, Vettel as most improved.
Hamilton. (comparatively) weak start to the year, uncharacteristic errors at Imola, Baku and (arguably) Silverstone. Absolutely mighty in closing races of the season though and dignified in defeat.
Bottas 5.0. Missing in action almost all year. On his day (Turkey this year) more than match for anyone but his days were few and far between this year. Too much time spent in the middle of the pack where we just know Hamilton would have been straight through. Five consecutive constructor’s titles though.
Verstappen. Sometimes inspired, sometimes overstepping it. All the speculation of ‘will he take Hamilton out at the last race’ shows his reputation, but credit where it’s due, he is rapid!
Perez. Baku shows what he is best at – keep his head in a weird race and get a surprise result. Also excels at staunch defending, could teach Max a thing or too about keeping it hard but fair. Really needs to work on his qualifying, too many unnecessary recovery drives. Ultimately failed to beat Bottas for the constructor’s title.
Sainz. I remember a lot of people saying he was mad going up against LeClerc in ‘his’ team. Worked out well though. Nothing spectacular but always good consistent points, well deserved best of the rest. 33-1 for next year’s title, worth sticking a tenner on if Ferrari have a decent car.
LeClerc. Monaco. So close. Fewer podiums than Sainz but more poles and good consistent fourth and fifth finishes. Good job.
Norris Strong start but faded away a little after Russia. Has that knocked his confidence? He has learnt to listen to his team now!
Riccardo. I like Riccardo a lot but he has underperformed this year. Monza was awesome but that was the only highlight. Another one who really needs to work on his qualifying.
Gasly. Continues to impress, especially in qualifying, often right up there with the RBs and Mercs and consistent points. Deserves better than an AT.
Tsunoda Underwhelming, five places behind Gasly in the standings, biggest gap between teammates. Although his quali picked up in the latter stages and he was faultless at Abu Dharbi, maybe he just takes a while to settle in?
Alonso. Weak start to the year but then Hungary was awesome, he can still do it. Not his best result but his best drive. He seems happy but it’s unlikely he’ll get another title.
Ocon. Quietly impressive. Did well against a very highly rated teammate. Held his nerve when it mattered and the pressure was on.
Vettel. Most improved. Has stopped making silly errors, seems much happier at AM. Shame about Hungary but the car wasn’t nearly as quick as the RP was last year.
Stroll. Yes, we know he only got into F1 because of his money but I think he has stayed in it on merit. At the midway point of last year’s championship he was fourth, not so good this year but the car isn’t as good either. Held his own against a teammate who we known can be/used to be very good
Russell. Still Mr Saturday. Really pleased to see Williams back on the podium. Yes I’m sure that counts. A lot of hype surrounding him, lets hope he’s up to the big test next year.
Latiffi. Seems to have improved compared to last year. Not great, but going in the right direction
Giovinazzi Qualifies well and then spends the race working his way backwards down the field, kind of the opposite of Checo. Underwhelming.
Raikkonen Not as good as he used to be, I think he has hung around a bit too long (isn’t he a big shareholder in the Sauber team?) Would have liked to have seen Ilott in that seat.
Kubica Not as good as he used to be, I think he has hung around a bit too long. Would have liked to have seen DeVryes in that seat.
Schumacher. Very hard to judge. Better than Mazapin is about all we know. Never really had anyone else to race. Surprised he didn’t get the second Alfa seat though, would be a much better assessment of if he’s any good.
Mazapin. No points but he does have a fastest lap to his name(!?) Consistently behind Schumacher, often half a second in quali. Not at all impressive.
Discuss
Shall we have a change of subject for a bit? Winners and losers this year?
Winner: Max Verstappen
Loser: Nikita Mazepin
Loser: Nikita Mazepin
Kubica only did two races, failed to get out of Q1 and scored no points.
He still wasn't last🤣
Bottas is clearly doing something right as he is the reason that Merc won the constructor's championship.
But his "after you Max" defensive driving and his lacklustre overtaking have really let him down this year. His move to Alfa gives a nice continuity of Formerly Fast F1 Finns.
I'd really like to see Gasly in a better car, hopefully his time will come.
@andrewh I find very little to disagree with there.
FWIW, I'm an unapologetic fan of this new iteration of McLaren so I was delighted to see Norris running as high as third in the WDC. He deserved to win at Sochi, his third place qualifying at the weekend in the fifth fastest car was inspired.
Following Ricciardo has been frustrating. I was surprised last year when Ferrari opted for Sainz over Ricciardo, but it's proved to be a good decision. Ricciardo has struggled to get to grips with the car and it's clear that the win at Monza wasn't representative of a turnaround in form. I do wonder if Ricciardo and Norris have such a fundamentally different comfort zone of setup that McLaren's 2022 car will be compromised slightly so as to to work for both drivers.
I am pleasantly surprised at Vettel too. Not to long ago he was labelled as someone who could only lead from the front and there were questions about his overtaking abilities - IIRC he's overtaken more cars than anyone else this season. He's grown into himself, he comes across as likable and quite positively outspoken.
After spending twenty years quite ambivalent about a certain seven times WDC, I've really warmed to Mick Schumacher. I really, really want to see the guy succeed in F1, but it's been hard to gauge just how good he is in the slowest car on the grid. There have been a few silly errors, but Mick has largely kept himself out of the sort of bother his teammate finds himself in regularly. I do hope that next year's Haas is more competitive, but I worry that there are few Ferrari powered seats available for 2023 for him.
I’d really like to see Gasly in a better car, hopefully his time will come.
If Ricciardo is still lacklustre at McLaren next year then Gasly is an obvious choice to partner Norris in 2023, likewise if Alonso decides to call it quits next year then I would not be surprised to see Alpine attempt to sign Gasly.
Gasly. Continues to impress, especially in qualifying, often right up there with the RBs and Mercs and consistent points. Deserves better than an AT.
Gasly's a funny one. Great to see him do well at AT, but I wonder if part of it is that he really fits in there? If so, would hate to see him move elsewhere and have another disaster e.g. no way could I see him at Ferrari
PJM1974
Free Member
I am pleasantly surprised at Vettel too. Not to long ago he was labelled as someone who could only lead from the front and there were questions about his overtaking abilities – IIRC he’s overtaken more cars than anyone else this season. He’s grown into himself, he comes across as likable and quite positively outspoken.
I never quite got where the lead from the front thing came from, can only assume it was people not liking the success at RB. Of course when you've got the best car-driver combo you're going to attempt to ace qualifying and drive away from the pack. Doesn't take much hunting on youtube to show some cracking Vettel passes over the years - I'm pretty certain he's the only current driver that's gone around the outside of Alonso at Curva Grande for example
Gasly’s a funny one. Great to see him do well at AT, but I wonder if part of it is that he really fits in there? If so, would hate to see him move elsewhere and have another disaster
Same happened with Albon and arguably Kvyat, great at TR/AT, hopeless at RB.
Is the RB really that Max-specific in it's design or is AT just a much nicer place to work and able to bring the best out of people who then get promoted too early?
Checo is a funny one. Is he a) experienced enough to be able to drive a car designed around someone else pretty well or b) experienced enough to be confident to do his own thing in a weird environment
Is the RB really that Max-specific in it’s design or is AT just a much nicer place to work and able to bring the best out of people who then get promoted too early?
Imagine having Marko over you - it's amazing anyone thrives.
Is the RB really that Max-specific in it’s design
No, just like the McLaren isn't a Norris specific design or the Merc isn't a Hamilton specific design. The engineers work on making the fastest possible car. Those top cars are very difficult to drive, the drivers have to be able to adapt to the car. Verstappen, Hamilton, Norris, Leclerc, Sainz, Alonso, and Russell seem to be able to adjust themselves to the demands of the car. Perez, Ricciardo, Gasly, Albon, Bottas, etc. seem to struggle with this. It's not that the engineers have designed the car for a specific driver, it's that the very best drivers can get the best out of difficult cars.
As much as watch F1 a lot, I don't know if it's fair to say the rake on Max's car is similar to that which gave Seb four titles at Redbull and whether it handles similarly. If it did, I'd love to have seen Seb back there and see how he would adapt back to the modern car. But not likely to ever happen, pretty much ruled out last year before Seb signed for Aston Martin.
Imagine having Marko over you – it’s amazing anyone thrives.
Yep, there's a very long list of drivers who quickly fell by the wayside after a bruising stint at RB. Gasly's ability to dust himself down and drag the B team's car onto the podium after a humiliating demotion AND the tragic death of his best mate was up there for heartstring tugging F1 moments.
