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I don’t understand how it can be construed to be anything other than predominately Vettel’s fault
Because either driver could've prevented the whole thing by moving out of the way. Both made a decision not to. The end point of that decision making by both drivers was that they both ended up with broken cars. That seems like a fair outcome. I'd imagine that both drivers are probably privately pleased about that. Social Media has LeClarc as the injured party, and his stock has risen and the team are probably rallying around somewhat. Vettel has demonstrated to his team mate that he will drive into him. The same tactic that Senna employed on Prost to great effect. Leclerc now knows that he is to be careful around his team mate.
Vettel now knows that he can't bully Leclerc out of the way.
I don't buy the "Leclerc could have prevented it by moving out of the way" argument, it's superficially true in a factual sense but if that's your basis for adjudication then your idea of racing is completely broken.
Think back to plenty of other incidents, such as Schumacher once violently swiping all the way across the track and very, very nearly forcing Barrichello into the pit wall in Hungary at nigh on 200mph. Inches from what could easily have been a horrific crash, and if it had been, you'd say "well, partly Barrichello's fault, he could have avoided the collision by hitting the brakes"…? Come on.
You can't pick apart racing collisions in the same way that you can a road crash. When racing you have to rely on certain predictable behaviours from others, otherwise you're screwed. If you pre-emptively compromise your own line every time anyone comes near you, just to give them more space, you're not a racing driver, you wouldn't even win an office night out at an indoor track. You have to be able to drive at full throttle right behind someone without getting the blame if they suddenly lift off halfway down the straight; you have to be able to pass without someone pushing you into the pit wall. Sure, some drivers can be a bit fast and loose with some of these trust issues, but when they are it's clear whose fault it is.
Even if you're saying that Leclerc could have avoided it by steering away from Vettel: that's what he did! But Vettel kept coming.
Balls is this Leclerc's fault, it's Vettel's entirely. Either he misjudged what was a straight line, or he misjudged whether he'd got his car in front of Leclerc's, or he just had the red mist and did something stupid. Whichever it is, it's his fault and his alone.
Interesting that LeClerc did pretty much the same manoeuvre on Norris on the opening laps, there doesn’t seem to be the same level of vitriol here for that
LeClerc was doing some very late defending against Bottas into turn one.
his move against Norris was pretty aggressive, too. Had Norris not reacted as well they’d have both been out or the race.
He’s shaping up to be a pretty aggressive driver. Just as well if he is going to compete with Max in the years to come.
as for Lewis not protesting the stewards’ verdict, it would have been unsportsmanlike to do so. He prides himself on being a descent person. If it were the last race of the season and he needed the points I’m in no doubt that he’d have raised a protest. it was a slightly ambitious move.
id have like to have seen max and Lewis pit for tyres at the same time under the first safety car. That said, max would have been out the pits 1.5 seconds sooner, but that would have been good viewing.
but if that’s your basis for adjudication then your idea of racing is completely broken.
I don't think for minute that either driver expected that incident to end as it did, do you? Plenty of team mates have rubbed wheels, and I think that's what Vettel was trying to do, I'd imagine it's what's Leclec was expecting to happen as well. They both could've prevented it. They both chose not to
If you pre-emptively compromise your own line every time anyone comes near you, just to give them more space, you’re not a racing driver
The stewards will decide on the outcome of incidents based on the premise agreed by all the racing driver that they should be allowed to race, this is what was happening here. LeClerc is Ferrari's second driver, it's not unreasonable if you're Vettel, to lean on him in the expectation that he'll give way, and it's not unreasonable to assume that LeClerc thought, balls to you I'm not giving way...Hence racing incident
EDIT: I do think however, that the fact that they are teammates has a large bearing on the decision making of the stewards.
Balls is this Leclerc’s fault, it’s Vettel’s entirely.
And yet the stewards who are trained, and have to pass an exam, and are often senior Marshalls and Ex Racing drivers, agree with my view and not yours.
LeClerc is Ferrari’s second driver, it’s not unreasonable if you’re Vettel, to lean on him in the expectation that he’ll give way
That’s nothing to do with the rules of racing, that’s a purely contractual matter, and a hypothetical one at that.
And yet the stewards who are trained, and have to pass an exam, and are often senior Marshalls and Ex Racing drivers, agree with my view and not yours.
Sure, I get that 🙂 But it’s not as if there’s no precedent for (a) taking a more lenient view where the driver who might at fault has suffered his own punishment (as you said yourself earlier regarding cause and consequence) or (b) inconsistency (Monza this year gave us some interesting stewarding decisions).
I get your point about comparing the move to Senna establishing his resolve in Prost’s eyes, but it’s not the same. Senna was the incoming threat, not the established champion, let alone one who seems desperate to turn around a long sequence of driving errors. And Vettel hasn’t handled this (at least in public) in the bullish way that Senna would. Again Suzuka 1990 is the purest example of this: Senna deliberately crashed, knew it was wrong to do it despite his reasons for doing so, and came out with the gloves off in interviews afterwards. Vettel just looked confused and non-committal, hardly sending a statement of intent.
Balls is this Leclerc’s fault, it’s Vettel’s entirely
And yet the stewards who are trained, and have to pass an exam, and are often senior Marshalls and Ex Racing drivers, agree with my view and not yours.
No view one way or t'other but one aspect you might be overlooking ....... Politics?
NickC, pretty sure we can all agree stewards and referees can get decisions wrong even after watching multiple replays.
I actually liked Vettel prior to this season. And I’m also no Hamilton fanbois. Like LAT says above, would have been interesting to see Hamilton’s response if he needed the points.
That’s nothing to do with the rules of racing, that’s a purely contractual matter, and a hypothetical one at that.
They literally changed the rules a few years ago to make the team orders decisions more open. Ferrari at the start of the season stated publicly that Vettel is (and remains) their no1 driver, it's not hypothetical, and these types of contractual agreements have always had a bearing on F1 racing since the 1950's. Both Vettel and LeClerc understand their positions in the team. Team leaders have given the 2nd driver a "hug" from time to time to remind them of their positions, 2nd drivers spending time cultivating their side of the garage and giving the no1 driver a hard time is also part of the deal. To mis-quote Brian's Mum, they've both been very naughty boys
Vettel just looked confused and non-committal
Again, I don't think for a minute that Vettel thought it would end with both cars falling to bits.
I actually liked Vettel prior to this season
He's a really good racing driver, and when he's got the whole team behind him, he's unstoppable, but he's also I think, a bit fragile, LeClerc is exposing his weaknesses very effectively.
but one aspect you might be overlooking ……. Politics?
I think the stewards would've taken a wholly different view if Vettel had tried that on a driver from a different team. I think the stewards have, in this case, quite rightly, stepped back and effectively handed the problem back to Ferrari and said "Here, you sort your drivers out"
NickC, not think the Stewards also has to think about Vettels penalty points and the noise/politics involved with giving him a ban?
Isn’t he 3 points away from an automatic ban? Wonder what the fall out would have been if a former world champion Ferrari driver was banned from racing at Abu Dhabi?
I know it’s a bit conspiratorial, but just made me think when I heard it mentioned on the radio.
I think the stewards would’ve taken a wholly different view if Vettel had tried that on a driver from a different team. I think the stewards have stepped back and effectively handed the problem back to Ferrari
So now you’re saying that the stewards’ decision was influenced by the fact that this was an intra-team issue and that had it not been then they’d have penalised Vettel?
You’re U-turning quicker than a number 5 Ferrari in a Monza chicane 😀
I did also make the observation in reply to you about an hour ago 😉
Yes, I think that the incident was wholly within one team influenced the stewards decision, and I think they recognised that hed it been a different driver, Vettel probably wouldn't have tried to lean on him like he did with LeClerc. That this happened because it was these two drivers can come as a surprise to no-one surely? It's been inevitable for the last 10 races at least.
@w00dster, do you think that would be worth it? to stop vettel driving the last race of the season. I don't think that would achieve much would it?
It won't have any bearing on the standings, and deny Vettel fans the chance to see him race?
I dunno, what d'you think?
Leclerc gave Vettel not one but two (two!!) car widths, was in the process of giving him even more and Vettel still managed to hit him. I reckon even Pastor Maldonado could have managed to navigate his way through that without colliding! What a joke.
Nick, my reference was in relation to Abu Dhabi and Ferrari. Ferrari World being there.
Pretty sure for Ferrari this would be one of the larger commercial weekends.
Again just being conspiratorial, I would see that Abu Dhabi is a very big occasion for both F1 and Ferrari, there’s a symbiotic relationship between the two, excluding a former world champion who drives a Ferrari from this race may not have been a very good move politically and more importantly commercially.
Sorry, but it’s 100/0 to me.
On the facts, sure. But as a principle of restorative justice, in order to make up for the many years of Ferrari dirty play, any Ferrari driver involved in an accident should be held at least partly responsible. LeClerk was driving a Ferrrari, therefore he's partly responsible. So 100/25 for me.
Again Suzuka 1990 is the purest example of this: Senna deliberately crashed, knew it was wrong to do it despite his reasons for doing so, and came out with the gloves off in interviews afterwards.
To be fair, I think Senna thought he had right on his side, but he bullshitted and said he went for the gap for at least a year.
Yeah, we're saying the same thing, I think. His motives for doing it were political, and he was making a huge political statement. But in order to do so he felt he had to do something which (I presume) he knew was wrong in terms of on-track racing.
The point is that, unlike Vettel who wasn't making a statement but a mistake, he was totally committed to his statement and the act through which he made it. Which meant that when Jackie Stewart (who, like all other racers, knew perfectly well he'd done something wrong) interviewed him, he had to dig his heels in and produce the "if you see a gap and don't go for it you're no longer a racer" line (amusingly oft-quoted since with no recognition at all of the fact that in context it was, as you say, bullshit).
What’s the betting the non Ferrari is Red Bull? So, F1 discovers how the Ferraris are faster, the rule book is clarified and they slow down, yet they find away around it for Brazil and get faster again. Having discovered the mechanism, RB copy the idea with a theoretically legal twist and Max wins.
... is my conspiracy theory.
Or, Ferrari and Honda do something naughty, Sainz wins for McLaren 😂
Or, Ferrari and Honda do something naughty, Sainz wins for McLaren
And if the customer Ferrari teams were disqualified too, that would put Ricciardo and Hamilton on the podium along with Sainz, plus George Russell up to ninth.
Only one non-Ferrai.
Gasley wins
Only one non-Ferrai.
Gasley wins
My assumption is that they will compare the factory Ferraris with the customer engines because the customer engines may not be identical. If the Ferrari (or Honda) fuel system is found to be illegal, then all cars fitted with that system will be penalized. The non-Ferrari might only be included as a reference of how a legitimate system works.
If it's a new loophole then the result will likely stand and a technical clarification will be issued before Abu Dhabi to make it illegal. Sorry George.
I'm colossally late to the party, but I've just caught the highlights of the Brazilian GP. Utterly nuts! I was absolutely delighted to see Gasly - not too long ago turfed out of his wayward Red Bull and unceremoniously demoted back to Toro Rosso - fight Lewis right to the finish line and claim a second place, his first podium and at Interlagos! Cocking marvelous.
And then it was rendered almost moot by Hamilton getting a 5 sec penalty. Gasly would still have claimed second regardless of whether he'd fought for position.
But that's not all...Hamilton is penalised and Carlos Sainz, in a McLaren that started from P20 had climbed up the grid, avoiding contact right up until a hard fought P4 got him within five seconds of Hamilton. The McLaren podium that I'd hoped to see all season finally happened.
Stick a fork in me, I'm done.
It was so amazing!! The saddest thing is this may well be one of the last grand prix to be raced here 🙁
Latifi cofirmed at Williams - hope they have a better car out of the box next year as they don't have much experience to lead the development.
That was my first thought too, but looking at what GR's done (won F4,F3,F2, did 2 test days for Force India, 2 for Merc) and obviously a year at Williams with RK who's known for being good at giving feedback, I would hope he knows what he needs to do! God help Williams if they're not closer next year...
I'm already expecting a "we're focusing on the 2021 car" statement anytime soon
So.... Ferrari and Honda engines deemed to have been examined and a "technical clarification requiring an additional fuel sensor in 2020" added.
XXX International Assistance at work again, because in reality they and Honda cheated recently and should have their (at least Brasil) results struck off, but to do so would:
a) Piss off Ferrari
b) interfered with Honda's decision to commit to F1
How do we know they cheated rather than stretched the rules?
Got a link Kryton? Can't find it anywhere.
Unproven then with 3 new derictives in to ensure it doesn't happen in future? Sounds fairly standard F1 "Mercedes' James Allison observed. "So it’s an interesting thing, but not anything you could draw any solid conclusions from.""
EDIT: or a conspiracy of course
The top engineers are paid to find and exploit the loopholes in the rules. All the greats have done it: Newey, Brawn, Murray… that’s why they’re the greats. This is business as usual and means Ferrari and Honda have played it smart: they secured a technical advantage without getting into trouble. Unless you have some smoking-gun information to hand, it’s neither cheating nor a conspiracy.
Thanks for the links hols & kryton
they secured a technical advantage without getting into trouble
I wonder if there's a list of these sorts of things anywhere? Seens a couple of videos of innovations that got banned, but i bet there are loads that have been forgotten about (that are considerably more exciting than finding ways to add a tiny bit more fuel)
Haven't seen a complete list anywhere, but the F1 YT channel had a vid on that subject a month or two back
Blimey, Bottas has dropped his marriage for the sake of his career. Häkkinen and someone else close to him, I forget who, were saying he had something special up his sleeve in terms of planning to hit 2020 hard; looks like whatever his plan is, he's taking no prisoners.
https://twitter.com/ValtteriBottas/status/1199999133773369348
Didn't Senna divorce his wife so he would be able to concentrate on racing?
I see Seb’s lost the back end again and put it in the wall.