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Ooof. Finger boy messes up yet again. I wonder if we'll see a punch up in the pits
That was a cracking race. Super result for Gasly
Is Sainz going to get promoted to the podium?
Those last 20 laps
Ooof. Finger boy messes up yet again. I wonder if we’ll see a punch up in the pits
He'd deserve every punch he got. He can't be that far off a one-race ban the number of penalty points he's got. That'd be funny.
I was kinda hoping Sainz may get promoted if Hamilton took a penalty but the rumours on twitter are that he's also under investigation for DRS under yellows 🙄
https://twitter.com/thomasmaheronf1/status/1196153881539022848
Sainz also under investigation for using DRS under double yellow flags
I don’t think Hamilton deserves a penalty for that. Door was wide open - every racing car driver would have went for that.
As for Seb.. silly boy. Should have kept right a moment longer and would have been fine. He’s broken rule 1 of racing cars in a team. Still, I’m shocked at the damage form a shunt I didn’t even notice 1st time round!
Surprised at that penalty for Hamilton.
Sainz promoted, hamilton given 5s penalty
Surprised at the Hamilton penalty but meh. Gutted for Albon as I would have loved to have seen him on the podium.
Excellent viewing watching Ferrari implode on a Sunday afternoon.
Still can’t stand Max, he’s almost as annoying as Horner.
Great drive from Carlos from the back of the grid. What happened to Lando?
I'm looking forward to the stewards dishing out all those drs through a yellow flag zone penalties. 😈
So disappointed for Albon… did an amazing job battling Vettel and would have thoroughly deserved a podium. I was half hoping the second safety car would run to the flag for an all-Hondo podium.
Vettel, though… jeez. Just when you thought he'd finally pulled himself together.
I would not like to be Better right now!
The way he's going right now I wouldn't be surprised if Ferrari decide to 'let' him sit out Abu Dhabi, either that or he's got to drive a perfect weekend. The Italian press are going to try their level best to destroy him as they can see Leclerc being their best hope for a champion next season.
dishing out all those drs through a yellow flag zone
Including Sainz. This could run and run, the musical podium.
I would not like to be
BetterVettel right now!
FFS, even spellchecker thinks he needs to improve 😂
Binotto is being perhaps too diplomatic now. It's very clear from the camera positioned at turn 4 what happened. Leclerc didn't just give Vettel space, he was moving away from him before, and when, they touched. I can't see how this is anything but 100% on Vettel's shoulders.
A fiver says we're in for a full-on Ferrari meltdown next year.
Sooo (in the absence of me seeing the race and being completely confused about what happened in those last two laps), what would have been the likely race position for Hamilton had they not pitted after the Vettel collision (assuming his tyres didn't fall off the cliff)?
So if my maths is right, that also means finger boy has to win in Abu Dhabi, and Leclerc be out of the points for the former world champion to beat his near rookie team mate in the overall standings?
Shame that Lewis and Albon coming together knackered Albon's chance of outscoring Max in their races as team mates, and outscoring Gasly overall. Least he's signed already for 2020.
Albon can still be ahead of Gasly in the championship.
And once again Vettel comes over to squeeze Hamilton at the start. When are the FIA going to do something about that or are they just waiting for an accident to happen?
Yes, next year will be interesting. Here's Andrew Benson's view on that:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/50455068
Leclerc is likely to finish this year ahead of Vettel on points, on race wins, on pole positions, and on their qualifying head-to-head, despite the advantages Vettel had at the beginning of the year, and despite the fact that he is in his first year with the team and only in his second in F1, against a four-time champion with 53 wins.
To all intents and purposes, Leclerc is now Ferrari's lead driver, and Binotto cannot go into next year giving Vettel priority. But nor will Vettel accept it being given to Leclerc. He just doesn't work that way. He believes his status in the sport demands more.
As for Binotto, he has a number of times this year described having two such closely matched and competitive drivers as "a luxury". Does he still think that way?
"I am still convinced it is a luxury because they are both very good drivers," he said. "They both represent a benchmark for each other and they have improved during the season.
"Seb in the second half has been very fast. What happened today, I would say it was even lucky it happened this season because there will be an opportunity to clarify with them for it not to happen next year.
"Currently they have a good relations and are going well together. Certainly what happened today may not help. But I don't think there is a drama at all and I see it more as an opportunity in view of next year to clarify what is needed."
Thought this was interesting, a composite of Seb and Charles' positions as they came down the straight:
Easily avoidable incident, i'd say 70/30 Seb's fault.
i’d say 70/30 Seb’s fault.
So a driver pretty much drives in a straight line most of the straight then moves away from the bloke passing him and he’s 30% to blame? How have you come to that conclusion?
Seb can’t race wheel to wheel, he’s shown it many times. I don’t know what it is that’s affecting him but if his relatively rookie team mate can understand how to position a car on a track when overtaking than what’s his excuse?
Leclerc was moving away from Vettel. Seb just kept coming. Sorry, but it’s 100/0 to me. Of course Leclerc could have moved all the way across to the left hand side of the track, but he’s a racing driver in the top formula.
He gave enough space for Seb to get alongside, and he then gave more space so there was room for error without Vettel either tangling with his car or putting his wheels on the grass.
Compare this to Rosberg and Hamilton in Spain 2016 a couple of pages back. Leclerc did all the right things here: he made Vettel work for it but gave him more than enough space to do so. Vettel simply drove into him: Leclerc rightly left room for error, he just forgot to account for the sheer size of the errors that his team-mate makes.
It’s been said and seen time after time that Vettels MO is to squeeze and bully a driver to get past. There’s no doubt that’s the cause of this issue and many before.
Interesting that LeClerc did pretty much the same manoeuvre on Norris on the opening laps, there doesn't seem to be the same level of vitriol here for that.
swedishmetal
So a driver pretty much drives in a straight line most of the straight then moves away from the bloke passing him and he’s 30% to blame? How have you come to that conclusion?
Seb can’t race wheel to wheel, he’s shown it many times. I don’t know what it is that’s affecting him but if his relatively rookie team mate can understand how to position a car on a track when overtaking than what’s his excuse?
Because the move is commonly done, and the inside driver usually moves with it. Both drivers were easily able to avoid the collision, but ultimately Seb is to blame as he was doing the squeezing.
And he absolutely can race wheel to wheel, the problem is he can't control his temper.
nickc
Subscriber
Interesting that LeClerc did pretty much the same manoeuvre on Norris on the opening laps, there doesn’t seem to be the same level of vitriol here for that.
Quite and I think I saw Norris do it to Ricciardo too.
nickc
Subscriber
Interesting that LeClerc did pretty much the same manoeuvre on Norris on the opening laps, there doesn’t seem to be the same level of vitriol here for that.
Rule 1 - don't take out your team mate
..and also LeClerc isn’t at the same level of dislike as Vettel.
same level of dislike as Vettel.
Aye, he does seem to be this generation's Mansell
OTOH I do appreciate this forums love of Hamilton: "penalty was unfair" "penalty was harsh" meanwhile "Hamilton doesn't defend penalty to stewards" 🙂
Interesting that LeClerc did pretty much the same manoeuvre on Norris on the opening laps, there doesn’t seem to be the same level of vitriol here for that.
Quite and I think I saw Norris do it to Ricciardo too.
I can't quite recall the detail of those (links to clips?) but perhaps they were a quite different scenario: moving to protect a position against someone overtaking; ie forcing them to use the very edge of the track in order to get the move done. That's just defending hard—though of course there's a line you can cross (one which Rosberg crossed emphatically in Spain by forcing Hamilton right off the track.) Leclerc did the opposite of what Rosberg did: once Seb committed to the outside, Leclerc progressively gave him more space.
Vettel's move was quite different: he was the one overtaking. In this scenario it's entirely right and proper for the person being overtaken to hold their line (and note that Leclerc progressively gave Vettel *more* space than that) and it's not "overtaking hard" to try to force someone across the track if you're the one coming from behind and you're not ahead, it's just stupid.
Even if Vettel *had* managed to get ahead he might have been wary of what happened to Montoya at the same place years ago when Jos Verstappen lined back up behind him. But then, I suppose he'd be fine—after all, Leclerc's not the sort of person who's careless enough to just pile into the back of someone under braking.
OTOH I do appreciate this forums love of Hamilton: “penalty was unfair” “penalty was harsh” meanwhile “Hamilton doesn’t defend penalty to stewards”
Yes, it's pretty hilarious that LH admitted that he screwed up but the fanbois won't accept his guilty plea.
Im a LH fan and i agree it was his fault as he was coming from behind, the fact that Lewis admitted it straight away, apologised to Albon on camera and in person and saved the stewards some time on investigating and interviewing both drivers makes me like Lewis even more
Bez
I can’t quite recall the detail of those (links to clips?)
I linked these already and the forum ate them. 2 mins.
1:10 seconds for charles/norris
1:26 for norris/ricciardo
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2019/11/ONBOARD__Leclerc__Ricciardo_and_Norris%27s_three-way_first_lap_battle.html
I will say, both of those moves looked a lot worse on the broadcast coverage compared to the onboard. I can't find a link for the moment though.
Better link Charles/norris 00:37 in this and 1:12 onwards for norris/ricciardo
Thanks.
I think in the Leclerc move, it looks like he's eyed a potential dive up the inside of the Alfa as the cars ahead stack up in the braking zone, and then as soon as he starts it he realises Norris is there and backs out. May not be the true explanation, but subscribers to Hanlon's Razor can run with it.
The Norris vs Ricciardo move is what I was describing above: Ricciardo is still behind and Norris is moving to defend his line. It's a pretty strong move, but it's not in the braking area and it's not a second change of direction, so I'd definitely call it on the hard racing side of the fence.
I watched both of those clips a few times before reading on and I pretty much agree with Bez in what I was thinking.
It does look like LeClerc is looking to dive down the inside of the Alfa, but it also looks like it's from an optimistically long way back. Maybe he could see a closing speed differential that we can't.
As for Norris - that's just defending. A single move to the left while still infront to defend the inside line. Hard but fair.
And Vettel (full disclosure - I don't like Vettel) - that was just bullying tactics, trying to push Lerclerc tol far to the inside so he'd have to brake earlier for a tighter line while Vettel returns to the right to take the fastest line. Bit of a shame that Leclerc didn't just lose an endplate in to Vettels tyre and then be able to carry on.
But then if that had happened we wouldn't have had Sainz on the podium (kind of) so it all worked out well for my preferences that way.
I think also that the outcome of the collision for both cars was a surprising factor, I've seen much worse "friendly tyre rubbing" that hasn't ended with both cars literally falling to bits. I'd bet Vettel's face was a picture when he realised what he'd managed to achieve.
pocpoc
Subscriber
I watched both of those clips a few times before reading on and I pretty much agree with Bez in what I was thinking.
It does look like LeClerc is looking to dive down the inside of the Alfa, but it also looks like it’s from an optimistically long way back. Maybe he could see a closing speed differential that we can’t.
As for Norris – that’s just defending. A single move to the left while still infront to defend the inside line. Hard but fair.And Vettel (full disclosure – I don’t like Vettel) – that was just bullying tactics, trying to push Lerclerc tol far to the inside so he’d have to brake earlier for a tighter line while Vettel returns to the right to take the fastest line. Bit of a shame that Leclerc didn’t just lose an endplate in to Vettels tyre and then be able to carry on.
But then if that had happened we wouldn’t have had Sainz on the podium (kind of) so it all worked out well for my preferences that way.
The point is, in all three cases, and many others, one car has to move to avoid another otherwise there is a crash.
Charles chose to stand his ground, fair enough but he does therefore shoulder some responsibility.
BTW The stewards agree with the above point but go further to say that no driver was 'predominately at fault'. That I cannot agree with.
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Source https://www.fia.com/file/108921/download/29979
That I cannot agree with.
Both drivers could've prevented the accident before it happened. You can claim that LeClerc didn't have to, but he could've moved as easily as Vettel They both chose not to. Stewards look at two things; cause and consequence. There's no blame to assign as they they effectively ended both their own races through their own behaviour.
What other conclusion would be a fair one?
What other conclusion would be a fair one?
I don't understand how it can be construed to be anything other than predominately Vettel's fault therefore he should receive a grid drop next race and/or points on his superlicence.
As a fan, the apparent inconsistency on penalties is really frustrating.
I don’t understand how it can be construed to be anything other than predominately Vettel’s fault
Did you not see the Grid interview with Vettels biggest fan and Hamilton’s biggest detractor being interviewed by Martin Bundle? a certain Mr B Ecclestone....