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Hulkenburg to Ferrari as the experienced driver. They have little other choice if Vettle retires.
I did read somewhere a while back that Ricciardo's contract has an escape clause that he can take a seat at Ferrari if it becomes available. Ferrari will be desperate to challenge for titles so I suspect they wouldn't worry so much about upsetting Leclerk if they were able to get Ricciardo. Question is whether they feel the same about Alonso - he did manage to challenge for the title in that utter dog of a Ferrari that they gave him one year. He might be a difficult prick to manage, but surely that's better than a guy who just seems to have just forgotten how to drive.
I find it very hard to see Ferrari viewing Hulkenberg as a better option than Vettel!!! Sure Vettel has seemingly lost his 'world champion' touch and doesn't seem to be at the level of Leclerc Verstapen or Hamilton....but I reckon he's a significant jump up from Hulkenberg! I'd say only Ricciardo would be a realistic replacement for him.
I'd be amazed if Ferrari seriously considers offering a seat to a 38 year old who has been out of F1 for a year. I don't know about Ricciardo's contract, but he must be on Ferrari's shortlist if there is an escape clause at Renault. Ricciardo himself is thirty, he needs a serious shot at a title around about now and I can't see Renault delivering this any time soon.
I find it very hard to see Ferrari viewing Hulkenberg as a better option than Vettel!!! I’d say only Ricciardo would be a realistic replacement for him.
I very much doubt Ferrari would (or even could without a legal thunderstorm) eject Vettel from his contract against his will. The question is more of whether Vettel might lose his desire to drive by the end of the year and they reach a mutual agreement to tear up the contract, in which case they'd need to fill a seat for 2020.
Hulkenberg's known to be available; Ricciardo would depend on escape clauses.
Few people would disagree that Ricciardo is a more realistic WDC candidate than Hulkenberg, but that doesn't mean Ferrari would go for him right now. In the modern era they've often—though not always—leaned towards having a clear number one backed up by a driver who isn't on the same level but who is fast enough and a safe pair of hands. Hulkenberg fits that profile better than Ricciardo, I think.
Leclerc seems to have a somewhat pre-ordained destiny with Ferrari and personally I think their long term plan was to nurture him this year while Vettel challenged for the title, and turn him into their Next Big Thing during Vettel's inevitable autumn seasons. I think it's just that, against expectations, Vettel may have plummeted straight through autumn into winter.
Realistically, though, I think Vettel will be there next year unless he voluntarily throws in the towel. But 2021 looks fairly unpredictable across the board…
And anyway, it could all change in the next couple of races. Vettel might recompose himself and Leclerc could reprise his tendency to "throw it in the bin". Unlikely, but it'd be a little unwise to infer too much of the future from just a few recent races.
I reckon the likes of Buemi and JEV would be better candidates for Ferrari than Nico Hulk. Nico is just not an inspiring choice for the Tifosi - too old to be exciting, not successful enough to geenrate a buzz. Grabbing one of the FE 'stars' would at least bring experience, even if they all tend to be red bull rejects. Or heck, bring Kimi back...
Vettel has been at Ferrari since 2014, this will be his sixth season at the team and he's yet to score a championship there. He's also not won at Ferrari since 2018, while Leclerc has now once twice, on the bounce.
I daresay that Vettel is struggling for motivation, he commands a much larger salary than Leclerc so Ferrari face the prospect of having an extremely expensive no 2 driver who doesn't want to play the team game or to go for a fresh start.
In terms of drivers, Verstappen looks to be staying put, as does Hamilton, Bottas, Sainz and Norris. Albon is still very green and needs time to develop, so he'll stay at RB until the end of the year at least. Gasly and Kvyat (the latter a Ferrari development driver last year) aren't realistically going anywhere. If Vettel decides to call it a day, or to take a sabbatical then Ferrari won't necessarily want to pair a 22 year old with two full seasons behind him with another young driver, they'll want experience. That could either be Ricciardo (of Italian descent no less) if there's a get out clause in his Renault contract, or Hulkenberg, unless of course something really outrageous happens like Grosjean or Magnussen getting an unlikely call up.
Haas and Rich Energy finally go their separate ways!...
https://www.racefans.net/2019/09/09/haas-splits-from-title-sponsor-rich-energy/
Hopefully they'll lose the black and gold - that colour scheme should be left back in the 70's where it had relevance and looked great. Unless it says JPS it's just a poor imitation.
...unless of course something really outrageous happens like Grosjean or Magnussen getting an unlikely call up.
LOL - need to clean the coffee of my computer screen now!!! 🤣🤣🤣
K Mag in a ferrari would be an awesome thing to watch
On the basis of yesterday, if it wasn't for the fact that car number 8 also went through Ascari backwards you'd be forgiven for thinking that Grosjean hadn't already been dropped into Vettel's seat.
Enjoyed yesterdays race. Good to see two top drivers at the front really going for it. The Ferrari was just too quick in a straight line though. LeClerc was hitting 340kph before the first chicance without DRS, Hamilton was getting to 345kph with DRS, He just didn't have enough overspeed with DRS to get ahead of LeClerc.
Its fair to say Vettel had an absolute 'mare. Talk of his replacement is probably premature though. His contract with Ferrari is pretty cast iron if he doesn't retire he needs to be bought out. He has almost certainly mentally written off this season and none of the remaining races really suit the Ferrari, but maybe he can get his head straight for next year.
He just didn’t have enough
overspeed with DRS to get ahead of LeClerc
Stop it!
For me there are two very strong drivers with a proven history right now, one of whom still makes too many mistakes. LeClerc is looking very strong too (and could have had a third win this season but for engine failure). Ricardo is good but not great so I see it as Hamilton, LeClerc, Verstappen then Ricardo.
It would be nice to see Hamilton in a Ferrari and, assuming he wins this year, he is one behind Shoe Maker. Perhaps he will stay at Mercedes for a further season to equal the record then move to Ferrari (he has always said he wants to drive for them one day) with Ricardo as a wing man and try to move one clear? But a very strong LeClerc may put paid to that idea if Ferrari want to keep him.
Personally I’d like to see Ricciardo get a drive in a better car – he made a mistake leaving RB last year.
The feeling I got from watching the Netflix series following teams last year, was that Ricciardo was scared of Verstappen and chose to jump ship rather than fight against the upstart.
Vettel will be at Ferrari next year. Anything else is just silly season ramblings. 2021 however...
He's had the stuffing knocked out of him this year, following an easy ride all his career at RB and beyond. RB always pick a favourite and coddle them, the team-mate always gets a rough ride.
Once they leave the confines of RB they can find the real world mighty chilly after having all the team revolve around you.
I suspect Verstappen will find the same once he moves on; even now Albon has battered him in the two races he's taken part in as an RB driver
Kamui Kobayashi to Ferrari for the win
The feeling I got from watching the Netflix series following teams last year, was that Ricciardo was scared of Verstappen and chose to jump ship rather than fight against the upstart.
More that he believed he was always going to be fighting an uphill battle politically within the team, I think. He seemed to feel that Verstappen was The Chisen One and I think he was probably justified.
Albon has battered him in the two races he’s taken part in as an RB driver
Not sure that’s reasonable, given the circumstances of those two races, not least who hot the Spec 4 engine when. Don’t get me wrong, Albon did an excellent job in Belgium and a decent one it Italy, but it’s far fetched to claim that Verstappen’s met his match.
Just finished listening to the BBC podcast following the Italian GP.
Palmer was banging on about the lack of consistency from the stewards and that Leclerc should have been penalised, LH commented that its a Ferrari in Italy. Basically it'll never happen. And let's face it,if it has been given the stewards would have been lynched.
I find it impossible to listen to the BBC podcast because of Palmer.
RB always pick a favourite and coddle them, the team-mate always gets a rough ride.
I also think this had a huge bearing on Riccardo leaving RB. I'd love to see him in a properly fast car, maybe next year...
I find it impossible to listen to the BBC podcast because of Palmer
He does come across as a bitter person - don't really take to him.
He does have a point about there should be a consistent group of race stewards throughout the season though. That's the only way to get consistency.
The consistency card does get a little over-played, though. There have been lots of comments along the lines of "Verstappen was penalised for pushing Bottas in Monza last year, so Leclerc should be too", which can't hold up because a year ago everyone was complaining that there were too many penalties and they should be free to race hard. If you want change you can't also demand consistency back in time. Consistency at the same event, sure, and a consistent trend in changes between events, but some of the arguments get silly. At the end of the day as long as when the red lights go out everyone has the same understanding of the rules and how the stewards will apply penalties, it's fine. It's when people do something or see something in the cockpit and the penalties don't seem to match that there's a problem.
as long as when the red lights go out everyone has the same understanding of the rules and how the stewards will apply penalties, it’s fine
But that's exactly it... they don't know how/when the penalties are going to be applied. You can't penalise someone for a discretion at one event and not penalise them for the same discretion at another event.
If this is allowed to carry on then there's the strong possibility that someone's going to get pushed off the road at 180mph and end up in the wall injured or worse - then people will be, rightly, throwing their hands in the air and asking why such actions were allowed to go unpenalised.
Without doubt this weekend was a Ferrari charity race.
He does come across as a bitter person – don’t really take to him.
I have to say that I don't find that. I think he is more than happy to take the piss out of himself. His co=presenters certainly do. He must be down about his chance in F1 gone but he's not too bad.
I did like Hamilton's views on Rosberg's comments on current F1 drivers:
“I thought it was really funny – I think Max is generally a really funny guy so I was cracking up when I saw it.”
Not done, he had a dig at drivers becoming “irrelevant” after they retire and making comments in order to try keep them in the spotlight.
He added: “It’s interesting because obviously we know what it’s like – all the drivers have all been here and know what it’s like being criticised from the public and when [they are] in the sport moan about being criticised by people from the outside and then when drivers retire they become those critics, so it’s an interesting dynamic.
“And also some of those… unfortunately drivers become irrelevant when they retire and ultimate have to hang on to utilise other people’s light to keep them in the light and so… but that’s the way of sport, I guess.”
Williams financial results mirroring their on track performance
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/928880/1/williams-f1-team-records-financial-loss-start-2019
Hope they can turn it around, but sounds like they're almost admitting defeat with hopes that it'll be OK in 2021.
But that’s exactly it… they don’t know how/when the penalties are going to be applied. You can’t penalise someone for a discretion at one event and not penalise them for the same discretion at another event.
You can as long as you make everyone crystal clear about the changes in the meantime (I realise there's the context of the rulebook which tends to stand for the full season), but that's key. Evidently right now that isn't the case. The idea that any given event must be consistent with the (or any) previous one is fundamentally flawed because it means you can't change anything.
To clarify my remark earlier about the black and white flag, I think it's good in principle to see it where a decision would be marginal. (I'm going to skip over the subjective matter of whether Leclerc's move was marginal or not.) I don't think it's good for what Palmer suggests in his latest column, that drivers will be "allowed to commit one offence in a race and get away with it". If it's a clear penalty, the black and white flag would be absurd.
If in the pre-race meeting drivers were informed that marginal decisions would result in a black and white flag, then the post-race discussion ceases to be about the stewarding decisions and instead becomes about whether the move was marginal or not… which is inevitable anyway. But the idea that the black and white flag is an unqualified get-out-of-jail-free card is quite bogus and I think Palmer's column is packed with hyperbole.
I think a lot of commentators have a bit of a contradiction to resolve, as well. A lot of the talk is along the lines of "if we didn't have these tarmac run-offs, we wouldn't need so many rules". It's a viewpoint I have a lot of sympathy with, but on Sunday I didn't hear anyone saying "thank goodness there's a tarmac run-off at the second chicane these days because otherwise Leclerc would have put Hamilton in the gravel and ended his race". Palmer bemoans the idea of the black and white flag because "there is a serious risk that the days of an overtake around the outside are well and truly over", yet the loss of tarmac run-offs would have the same effect but much more so. There's no acknowledgement that (at least as far as I perceive it from 35 or so years of watching) these days there's much more overtaking round the outside than there used to be, not least because of the tarmac run-offs. If Monza still had its old configuration Hamilton wouldn't have even tried that move, nor would he have passed Vettel the same way last year.
There is no single right answer. But it has to be acknowledged that drivers and teams will necessarily and rightly push the rules to breaking point, and as a result drivers will make finely judged decisions and stewards will always face marginal decisions. They don't have the luxury of measuring physical things as scrutineers do. It makes sense to have a tool for dealing with those marginal decisions, and I think the black and white flag isn't a bad one. The key is that it has to be applied with two principles: firstly, only to marginal decisions; and secondly, any subsequent marginal decisions have to result in a clear penalty.
Of course everyone needs a consistent understanding of the rules and the stewarding when the lights go out, and nothing should change during a race. But that shouldn't mean that no changes should even be made between races; nor does it mean that all stewarding decisions will become (ironically) black and white.
In short: use of the black and white flag does not inherently mean inconsistent stewarding.
TBH I’m nterested tosee how they deal with the new slipstreaming in Q3 dilemma.
eddiebaby
Member
TBH I’m nterested tosee how they deal with the new slipstreaming in Q3 dilemma.
Not sure there any tracks left this season where having a tow pays off? I enjoyed it anyway tbh. Mixed the pack up a bit + added some drama.
Yeah, I don't think that really needs dealing with. Even if you think it was a Really Awful Thing, it's Monza-specific and it's only happened once.
Think there's only a couple where they tried slipstreaming in Quali. Monza was clearly one of them. Baku another where there's an enormous "straight" where a tow is worth something and a double tow is worth more.
The only dilemma to deal with is penalising those who hold up others when on outlaps as well as flying laps. If you go so slow someone behind gets the chequered flag, and don't let them past, then you get all your times deleted. Something like that might make them think twice.
Red Bull are 'bullish' about their chances in Singapore. I'd like to see a level playing field, no penalties, full bore battle between the new boy (Albon) and the chosen one (Max V)
Max has wound his neck in a bit this year. His (at times) immature approach has been curbed this year and it's made him a little slower and safer. Albon is fighting for his F1 life
Without interference from the pit wall, it'll be interesting.
Agreed, nicely explained Bez.
I'm sure that that the issue of team mates giving one another a tow during qualifying is not just a recent phenomenon, I guess that it's inevitable if two cars from the same team (or same family of teams) are on track at the same time. I can't see that much can be realistically done to fix it.
Track blocking shenanigans have been severely punished in the past (remember Schumacher "parking" his car at Rascasse causing Alonso to abort his flying lap at Monaco?). In short, I have no idea how we prevent drivers from going slowly to stymie a qualifying lap for someone else, given that the stewards were unable to determine whether Hulkenberg fell off the track on purpose...
....then the post-race discussion ceases to be about the stewarding decisions and instead becomes about whether the move was marginal or not…
Stewarding decisions are based on 2 things; The Offence, what did the driver do/what decision did he make . and 2 The Consequences of that decision/ his actions, and will/should penalise accordingly. It tries to mitigate the "marginal" element
Drivers are briefed accordingly, and have for the last couple of seasons, along with teams, tracks, stewards and marshalls taken a "it's a race, lets race" attitude. Drivers who pull moves like Leclercs will always plead "It's racing, and drivers who move like that will always cry foul...
Wasn't the Q3 farce due to Raikkanen binning it, the session being stopped and restarted with a minute or so left, but and everyone reluctant to lead the pack out?
A one off occurrence surely?
Wasn’t the Q3 farce due to Raikkanen binning it, the session being stopped and restarted with a minute or so left, but and everyone reluctant to lead the pack out?
A one off occurrence surely?
Nope, it was purely as no one wanted to be first in the queue. Hence Mercs stopping at end of pit lane, then Hulk cutting the chicance hoping Stroll and Carlos would come by...but Stroll pretty much slowed to a stop to ensure Hulk rejoined at the front the queue and that backed everyone up. Then they all went slowly trying to maintain their position and not be a the front.
How does quality work for Indycars? They must have some rules for ovals where slipstreaming is even more important. Could something similar be applied in F1 or isn't it necessary?
Ovals are one car on track at a time - please dont let us go back to that!
A superpole shootout at a couple of tracks could be interesting, everyone in the final qualifying session gets just one hot lap, no room for mistakes. Also assuming it is better to go later, the top teams would be having to do hot laps in q2, therefore limiting there race strategy tire choices.
At the moment though, as farcical as it was this has only happened once, the tow issue never registered with me in the past couple of years, even though I assume it was there. Maybe with evolving aerodynamics and strategies it just became more obvious to the teams that they need to make use of it this year to stand any chance. Now it has become so obvious though, I can't see anything changing until the aero rules change again.
Meh.... how about this for slipstreaming?!
Mark Hughes continues with his wishful thinking:
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/mph-could-ban-vettel-pave-way-alonsos-formula-1-return
Alonso has burnt his bridges, the top 3 don't need or want him so he has no chance of getting in a race winning car. No doubt he knows that too but he has always liked to make a bit of mischief.
Of all the places Alonso would be welcome, Ferrari would be bottom of the list.
Amoebic Dysentery would be better received
Of all the places Alonso would be welcome, Ferrari would be bottom of the list.
Not quite. Red Bull (Honda) are bottom of the list.