[Closed] F1 2017 (Bound to contain spoilers!)

If it was anybody except Max

I don't agree with that at all, he is the one that initally opens the door and then chops into Kimi. End of the day it's a bit of a racing incident, but Max isn't without blame in my book

he is the one that initally opens the door and then chops into Kimi [b][u]whilst trying to avoid being mangled by a veering Seb[/u][/b]

FTFY

Isn't there reverse qualifying grid positions in one of the other formulas? So it must work for them, right?

Honda mud-slinging has started - this could be good as the season draws to a close!...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclaren-finds-adapting-to-change-hard-says-honda-954909/

he is the one that initally opens the door and then chops into Kimi whilst trying to avoid being mangled by a veering Seb

Watch it head on and Max is going to his right and Vettel to his left, so both are to blame. If Max hadn't gone right Kimi couldn't have got through and the rest could never of happened.

[quote=zokes ]

How many times have we seen multiple car pile-ups at the start of a Gran Prix over the years? You think the authorities would have ruled all this nonsense out by now or had a rolling start like many other forms of motorsport.

If you mean a rolling start, then yes I agree, no need for them to do that. However I do tend to agree that swerving across the track in the way Vettel did should be outlawed - at any other point in the race you would be penalised for moving that far off the line on a straight (in theory - Rosberg got away with it when he put LH on the grass).

[I]dragon - Member
Watch it head on and Max is going to his right and Vettel to his left, so both are to blame. If Max hadn't gone right Kimi couldn't have got through and the rest could never of happened.
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Not sure I agree entirely there.

Imo that accident started with SV making a poor start which he then tried to recover from, during the run into the first corner. I think better racers would have made a different call.

However, that doesn't address the psychological war between SV and MV.
If it hasn't already been established, then both will want to prove to the other that in such a situation, They ain't gonna budge. Who "[I]owns[/I]" who, etc, etc.

With the benefit of the wisdom of hindsight, it's easy to suggest SV should have backed out, in order to address the larger goal of scoring points with which to take the title fight onwards.
It's not over by any stretch, but SV could and should have made a different choice, imo.

By comparison, I believe LH has made several poor starts during the last 18 months, but when doing so rarely ends up crashing at the first corner, [b]IIRC[/b].

[I]aracer - Member
However I do tend to agree that swerving across the track in the way Vettel did should be outlawed[/I]

Indeed, wasn't MV the subject of similarly dangerous driving, changing position in the braking zone?

Furthermore, I'm also reminded that AFAIK, doesn't SV has a very high number of points on his super license?

[quote=dragon ]Watch it head on and Max is going to his right and Vettel to his left, so both are to blame. If Max hadn't gone right Kimi couldn't have got through and the rest could never of happened.

I've watched it head on, and yes Max does initially move right, then he moves back to the left when he sees Vettel coming across. Sure the first contact is between Max and Kimi, but at that point the whole thing is inevitable given Vettel's trajectory - you could argue that Max should have stayed further to the right and not hit Kimi first, but in that case Vettel would have shunted him into Kimi anyway. Fundamentally the question is what could any of them have done to avoid the incident - anything Max did different wouldn't have prevented the crash (and the same goes for Kimi) the only person who could have avoided it was Vettel, hence he's the one who is to blame for it and I don't think you can reasonably blame Max at all.

Or are you suggesting that Max opening the door for Kimi way before Vettel chops across makes him to blame? 🙄 In case you hadn't noticed there was still space on the right of Max for about 3 cars even after he moved slightly to the right and him giving Kimi space only caused the collision in the sense that it allowed Vettel to cause it. Also check out the overhead, you'll see most of the cars on the left of the grid moving to the right as they come off the line, presumably because they need to be on the right to make the first corner - and Vettel was trying to stop Max getting a decent line by chipping across.

What exactly do you think Max should have done differently (preferably without requiring ESP)?

Isn't there reverse qualifying grid positions in one of the other formulas? So it must work for them, right?

I don't know how they allocate points. Key thing about the proposal above is that there were many more points for winning the race than winning pole position, plus prize money is awarded for the constructor's championship, not the drivers. If equal points were awarded for qualifying as for the race, then it would make sense for the teams to prioritize pole position, then aim to pick up whatever points they could from the race. With many more points for the race than pole position, the strategy options will become complex and teams would probably hire designated number 2 drivers to optimize strategy for the constructors championship. I don't see how it would improve the tv show.

I wonder what was going on in Lewis' head after the first 10 seconds of that race, as everyone crashed to his left then Vettel spun off for no particular reason (as far as he knew at the time) right in front of him?

"WTF just happened?" I'd guess

He was expecting to run a long and hard race to try and creep up the standings to avoid losing too much time but before he could blink he was in the lead with all his main rivals out of the race!

He really hates going slowly though, doesn't he? When asked to peg his speed back to bunch up racers behind him "that doesn't feel right, I want to go fast" .... "ok Lewis, err go for it then!".

When asked to peg his speed back to bunch up racers behind him "that doesn't feel right, I want to go fast"

He was quite happy to do it to Rosberg when it was his only hope of winning the championship, so he does seem a bit flexible on that.

[quote=Solo ]However, that doesn't address the psychological war between SV and MV.
If it hasn't already been established, then both will want to prove to the other that in such a situation, They ain't gonna budge. Who "owns" who, etc, etc.

It's an interesting point - I wonder what was going through Vettel's head before the start. He must have been conscious that Max is very good (and fearless) in the wet, and if he acknowledges his weaknesses at all he should be aware that he doesn't have that good a record in the wet (not in comparison to the other top boys) I'm not sure if I'm being unfair and forgetting a stunning drive he did, but I can also think of great drives in the wet by Hamilton and Alonso and also of course Button in 2011 in Canada when Vettel messed up.

[quote=hols2 ]He was quite happy to do it to Rosberg when it was his only hope of winning the championship, so he does seem a bit flexible on that.

and then in a complete reversal his team were complaining at him doing it, despite it clearly being in his best interests - his best interests were served perfectly well by driving fast yesterday. You could almost get the impression that LH is better off ignoring his team instructions...

[I]aracer - Member

It's an interesting point - I wonder what was going through Vettel's head before the start.
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I was minded to make my comment, after recalling Martin Brundle's comments about Senna and how he'd try to psych-out other drivers so that if they saw him beside them, they'd just get out of his way.

My read is MV likes/chooses to play the part of arrogant, fearless, new-boy. Ultimately, imo, all parties need to reflect and work out how they are going to decide a corner in future.
Luckily nobody was hurt, AFAIK.

I felt very bad for Alonso, who was running as high as third place when he was swiped by a ricocheting Raikkonen. Who knows, he could have bagged a podium spot...

I'm not sure if I'm being unfair and forgetting a stunning drive he did

His first win at Monza in the Toro Rosso was in the wet iirc.

Edit: but yes, when you think of wet-weather greats Vettel doesn't instantly spring to mind.

Edit: but yes, when you think of wet-weather greats Vettel doesn't instantly spring to mind.

In fact, most of my memories of him in the wet in his Red Bull days are of him whinging about wet races being too dangerous whilst Button and Lewis pleaded for the race to continue.

What exactly do you think Max should have done differently (preferably without requiring ESP)?

He could have backed out of the move, braked earlier etc. I'm definitely not pinning the blame on him but they all have two pedals.

There was nothing MV could have done.. SV was trying to squeeze him out but didnt know that KR was along side him. KR was trying to squeeze him over to make a little room. MV had nowhere to go.

I felt very bad for Alonso, who was running as high as third place when he was swiped by a ricocheting Raikkonen. Who knows, he could have bagged a podium spot...

[img] [/img]

If you watch the replay and listen to MV, he does try to brake. At the point just before the collision with Kimi, you can see the RedBulls nose dip, just as Kimi moves out from the side of the track in preparation for the first corner. But as Max correctly pointed out, it was wet and the back of the new cars is wider than the front. Meaning that a still accelerating Kimi and Seb managed to pinch a slowly decelerating Max, ripping the rear from Kimi's car and slamming the front wing of Max's into the sidepod of Seb's before a spinning Kimi slammed nose first into the side of Seb, puncturing the Rad and the Oil cooler.

A podium for Alonso was never on the cards once the track started to dry. Lewis pulled out over 2mins (neutralised 3 times) over the field below the podium finishers.

There was nothing MV could have done.. SV was trying to squeeze him out but didnt know that KR was along side him

Well MV shouldn't have opened the door, then cut back left without checking your mirrors. If need driven straight bed have been fine. End of the day SV and MV are both trying it on and both lost due to their own bloody mindedness. Both are to blame, to say MV did nothing wrong I just don't agree with, was roughly 50:50.

James Allen is rarely far off the mark in his analysis:

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/09/singapore-f1-start-accident-were-raikkonen-verstappen-and-vettel-all-entitled-to-go-for-it/

Yes, that James Allen sets it all out pretty clearly in my view. However it's great that it's got so many people talking about it! Any increase in interest in the sport can only be a good thing after the slightly dull years of Mercedes domination and as it heads torwards a self-imposed eclipse behind the Sky pay-wall..

Yeah its a tough one but the defence that Max was going in a straight line does not wash , his straight line seems to have 3 differnt headings before the crunch.

Kimi , sneaky blinding up the inside move.

Seb , blatant cut across the bow Shumiesque move.

Max , this way , no that way , no th.. Bollox!

Thats racing for you.

Ferrari a nasty team with an attitude problem

Anyone watch Mark Webber try and get a comment from Maurizio Arrivabene ?

[quote=dragon ]Well MV shouldn't have opened the door, then cut back left without checking your mirrors. If need driven straight bed have been fine. End of the day SV and MV are both trying it on and both lost due to their own bloody mindedness. Both are to blame, to say MV did nothing wrong I just don't agree with, was roughly 50:50.

You're a Ferrari/Vettel fanboi clearly! So you're blaming it on him because he moved to the right off the start line (as I pointed out before, so did most of the drivers on the left, because that's the route to the racing line) way before Vettel slammed hard left into him? Or because he didn't lift off until it was too late, because he didn't realise Vettel was going to be a complete idiot? There is no requirement for MV to stay on the original line he is on the grid all the way to the first corner and so making the corner much tighter, that would be nonsensical.

This whole argument is victim blaming - it's like saying that a cyclist is partly to blame for not braking when a car left hooks them.

As I also pointed out before, the fact first contact was between MV and KR (because Vettel had succeeded in intimidating Max at that point) is irrelevant. Even if Max had stayed on the line to the right the whole collision would still have happened, it was inevitable from Vettel's trajectory. The only person who could have prevented the collision once the 3 cars were alongside each other was Vettel.

I can understand the FIA deciding is was a racing incident, but if you think Max was anywhere near as culpable as Vettel you were watching a different race to me.

Must be nice for Lewis not being involved in any it all 😀

[url= https://gfycat.com/SaltyOddAcaciarat ]looped[/url]

Well MV shouldn't have opened the door, then cut back left without checking your mirrors. 

I have to say, after watching that gif loop of the crash, it's very hard to see how Verstappen could be held responsible for it...

Both SV and KR ahead of MV and closing in from either side?
Time to hit the brakes Max. The two Ferraris ahead gives them the corner.
SV entitled to one move - perhaps a little enthusiastic, try considering whether the other guy can move/brake.
KR - good start, unlucky, probably the only blameless one here.

Time to hit the brakes Max.

If he's had hit the brakes, Kimi's rear wheel would still have collided with his front. Don't forget they're quite a bit wider at the back now.

In fact in his interview he said that he did brake.

I'm shocked that anyone is trying to defend Vettel in this, there's only one driver in that gif spearing across the track with acres of tarmac to his right.

Which under the rules he is allowed to do - however unwise it was.
They're racers. Vettel wasn't going to give the line into the corner to Max, Max wasn't going to brake earlier (i.e. before the gap closed enough that he had to hit Kimi) - result, crash.

I agree Vettel is meant to give Max one car's wish of track, but unless he knew Kimi was there (and he wouldn't have been in Vettel's mirrors or direct sight) then he would have thought he had.

Can't argue that Vettel didn't break any rules, but it's still his movement that caused the accident, the other two were more or less going straight.

I'm not arguing that it was against the rules. I'm pointing out that of the three drivers involved, one of them could've avoided the whole incident by taking an action that wasn't 'not occupying that particular 3D space at that particular point in time'

Vettel has form for massively aggressive chops of the start line that rely on the other guy getting the hell out of the way, just ask Mark Webber. When they don't/can't he and his team need to be big enough to admit they screwed up.

Well yes - ish.

Normally that move would have just shut the door on Max with no contact. But with a second car there that Vettel couldn't see, then yes it caused it.

Makes one wonder if there is a case for teammates being able to talk to each other at the start. But that would probably introduce more problems.

Vettel has form for massively aggressive chops of the start line that rely on the other guy getting the hell out of the way, just ask Mark Webber.

If it's that predictable, why go two abreast into an area you know Vettel is going to drive through?
If it's regular and bad/dangerous why not impose a regulation that bans it?

The main issue is F1 and especially street circuits making the start so crucial that drivers are willing to risk the race on it.

I don't think anyone was really at fault but as has been said it was really Vettel that instigated it. Sure, he could have not tried to shut the door so hard but I don't really blame him for it (and yes he would have expected to be able to squeeze Max over and wouldn't have realised Kimi had given him no where to go).

But fundamentally the sport is broken and this is just one of things that leads to.

Good questions.

But he's relied on the other drivers sense of self preservation for too long. Hopefully this help him learn not to be quite so agressive, but time will tell and I suspect not.

If it's that predictable, why go two abreast into an area you know Vettel is going to drive through?
If it's regular and bad/dangerous why not impose a regulation that bans it?

[quote=igm ]Time to hit the brakes Max. The two Ferraris ahead gives them the corner.

They were miles away from the corner, not yet in the braking zone - Vettel was wanting Max to give him the straight. All these suggestions that Max should have backed off and hit the brakes - well apart from the fact he did when he saw the collision coming, the driver in front moving across isn't entitled to do so in such a way that the driver alongside is forced to back off to avoid a collision, not on a straight. The rules explicitly say that a driver alongside (as Max was) has a right to space. The "Max should have backed off" argument acknowledges the imminence of a collision caused by Vettel.

[quote=igm ]Which under the rules he is allowed to do - however unwise it was.

Vettel was entitled to move right across to block if he had been completely in front, but because of his relatively poor start he wasn't so Max had a right to space. The rules still don't allow you to spear across in the way Vettel did there. Sure he might not have known that Kimi was there (though he would have appeared in the mirror at some point), but Vettel should have known the possibility that there might be another car there given his own slow start.

[quote=igm ]If it's that predictable, why go two abreast into an area you know Vettel is going to drive through?
If it's regular and bad/dangerous why not impose a regulation that bans it?

The former you're basically enabling bullies, the latter I tend to agree with - under current regulations and the way such incidents have been dealt with in the past the stewards decision was consistent, I don't think most people would have thought it at all unjust for Vettel to have been penalised though. TBH though this incident has brought up Baku again and Vettel should probably have been black flagged there - that might have made him calm down a bit, and letting him off there has simply encouraged him to continue with his overly aggressive approach.

You've go to remember in all this that the decisions they make aren't something they really get to think about. It's all instinct in that sort of melee.

I'm normally one to knock SV but he was doing the same thing that other pole sitters do. I think the decision by the stewards was the right one. It's not as if they do "mirror signal manoeuvre" like we do on public roads! I hate to defend SV but the speed that KR came up between them was something I've not seen very often in recent years, SV's start wasn't amazing but wasn't dire so I think it's reasonable for him not to expect KR to be there.

What I detest about SV is his absolute belief that he never does a thing wrong, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I still can't believe what happened in Baku and I can agree with a previous poster that he should have been black flagged in that case and this might have calmed him down a bit.

Martin Brundle has just put a very good article (titled "Vettel losing risk game") that nicely summarises the start line incident on Sky sports news about half an hour ago. I can't help but agree with:

"Vettel squeezing Verstappen, who is not his championship rival, so hard in those conditions created a high risk of contact, a puncture, or being turned around. He should have kept more to the outside and swept into turn 1 on the ideal line. Moving significantly across a wet grid is always high risk"

He also says the following, which some people have already discussed (i.e. Vettel should know better having raced cars for a long time):

"Vettel had no way of knowing Raikkonen was there as he aggressively went to cover Verstappen. Equally, especially in those conditions, he should not have assumed nobody would be there".

My view is that Vettel made a very bad judgment call and it cost him dearly. I don't think he should be penalised and agree with the racing incident conclusion but as above, he was the only one with the ability to have changed the outcome.

Brundle talks sense once again.