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The reasons for Honda's apparent malaise are mainly down to the company's dogged insistence of doing everything in-house and not formally engaging with external consultants and leaving it far too late to try to poach European engineers from Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault. This philosophy won them championships during the late 1980s/early 1990s but the game has changed with the advent of complex energy harvesting technology in the modern turbo era.
It's been a hugely costly exercise for Honda, who spent 2009 watching a Honda chassis hastily adapted for a Mercedes engine win a world championship, just as Honda pulled the plug. But equally, it's obvious that Honda have taken several retrograde steps this year in terms of engine power and reliability.
As a fan, it's been a crying shame to witness the most talented driver on the grid farting his way around circuit after circuit chasing singular points while being punished by frequent mechanical failures. The McLaren chassis has been getting better and better, Ron has been ousted from the team and protégé Vandoorne hasn't been able to demonstrate his abilities. McLaren are in the unfortunate position of having to tread water until new engine regulations come in, unless the 2018 Renault powerplant is significantly improved, I daresay the win drought will continue for some time yet.
As for the Red Bull/Porsche rumours, that won't sit well with Aston Martin, one of the title sponsors for Red Bull.
I would have thought they'd just swap the engine over to the main RB team? Or even add it as a second team for Honda to double the testing time they get.
That would require engine suppliers agreeing to it. You'd have to argue that the kudos for Honda in making Torro Rosso a winner would be better than in doing it for Redbull. Likewise, Renault would have to accept a torn up contract and a move to a lesser team. It's not like it's one team with two garages, despite the owner.
Yep - they'd just swap the engine to main Red Bull team if it was any good!
No they wouldn't, the whole car is built around the engine/gearbox. You can't just crow bar it in.
This is why teams (Mclaren) have had to make a decision now...so they can start development of the 2018 car.
No they wouldn't, the whole car is built around the engine/gearbox. You can't just crow bar it in.This is why teams (Mclaren) have had to make a decision now...so they can start development of the 2018 car.
I wasn't expecting them to turn up with a lorry loads of engines at the start of the season and say "there you go mate - you can have 'em!" 😀
If by this time next year Honda have taken a huge leap forward it would be possible to build a 2019 Red Bull to take the engine. You can bet there is a clause in any Torro Rosso deal for this scenario.
And they'd have access to the full install specs, sizes and cooling requirements well in advance.
I can't see Renault being too upset at losing a customer that won't even have their name on the engine.
And Renault have desires to be their own No.1 team and supply lesser teams - as per Mercedes.
If by this time next year Honda have taken a huge leap forward it would be possible to build a 2019 Red Bull to take the engine. You can bet there is a clause in any Torro Rosso deal for this scenario.
That arrangement is dependent on McLaren supplying gearboxes. You can be pretty sure that there's a contractual clause somewhere about McLaren's gearboxes being solely for the use of Toro Rosso and not Red Bull.
dooosuk - Member
No they wouldn't, the whole car is built around the engine/gearbox. You can't just crow bar it in.This is why teams (Mclaren) have had to make a decision now...so they can start development of the 2018 car.
You can bet your scrotum RB will have parallel design work running once they get details of the cooling setup requirements, mounting points, weight distribution etc.
RB effectively sell a lot of components to TR for their car, so for them take on the extra cost of running development of two separate engines, gearboxes etc makes no sense whatsoever unless they plan on moving it over to the main team so they can migrate away from renault (if it's shown to be better).
Remember, RedBull made a lot of noise a while back about not being able to win unless you're a works team, well having Honda will effectively give them that.
edit: whoops too slow
If by this time next year Honda have taken a huge leap forward it would be possible to build a 2019 Red Bull to take the engine. You can bet there is a clause in any Torro Rosso deal for this scenario.
I agree with this.
When I first read above, it sounded like Atlas was talking about switching drivers mid season..which was countered by an engine swap suggestion.
There's surely no sense in TR switching from Renault to Honda without there being a clear path to a works deal with RB if and when Honda are finally firing on all cylinders. Whatever stands in the way of getting a Honda into a RB would have been addressed by Dieter and co already.
Plus, by that time Renault will hope to have made their chassis more competitive, which means they might prefer not to be fighting against their own PU in the RB.
This whole engine swapping make sense when you boil it down to the basics:
McLaren want rid of the Honda. They cannot take the Merc or Ferrari engine due to issues with their respective road car divisions. Taking a Renault supply works for them as they're not in the same markets and Renault will gain reputation if McLaren start performing, something they don't get with RedBull.
RedBull can evaluate the Honda effort at close quarters and if it comes good they can engineer a swap of supply for the main team. If it turns out to be a dud again in the next few years they don't have to worry about Toro Rosso not winning and they can still evaluate their drivers against each other so they don't lose anything from the new arrangement. If they do go full Honda works then they can also use Honda's other racing efforts to advertise RedBull too in a reciprocal agreement. After losing so much face having to drop from McLaren to Toro Rosso Honda would jump at the chance to be in the back of a RedBull so any contractual iussues would be sorted.
With the speculation of new engine partners coming in with the new regs both McLaren and RedBull are still in the position to grab a works supply if the opportunity arises and ditch their Renault supply. They could both possibly start developing their own engines, linking up with Cosworth for example, if the Honda is indeed a lost cause and no new suppliers come forward. McLaren will elevate themselves to the same level as Ferrari, building car and engine, with a benefit to their road car business and RedBull can sell branding rights to their engine.
McLaren taking Renault engines with Toro Rosso going to Honda works for everyone except Honda who will lose face. The only way it can all go tits up is if Honda actually make a decent engine, even then only McLaren will lose out but having a Renault supply will make those losses minimal.
Whatever happens it will help tighten up the mid and front of the pack with RedBull, McLaren and Renault all being a more competitive package.
SHOCK NEWS - Bottas stays at Merc. Expect Lewis will be happy about that.
I do wonder if next year McLaren might be called just that, not McLaren-Renault as people expect...
I honestly don't see that for Dieter Mateschitz, the Red Bull team winning is better than the Toro Rosso team winning. Both of them carry his branding, his drivers and his ownership so assuming chassis are roughly equal you'd not see the point in moving the engine deal. The better chassis married with the better engine I could see.
I do wonder if next year McLaren might be called just that, not McLaren-Renault as people expect...
If McLaren have their eyes on becoming a PU constructor in 2021, which seems quite plausible, then I'd think it makes far more sense to retain the Renault badge as distinct from their own product.
I honestly don't see that for Dieter Mateschitz, the Red Bull team winning is better than the Toro Rosso team winning.
The Red Bull name is immeasurably more valuable than Toro Rosso, so in marketing terms it'd be an intergalactic balls-up to let RB sink. Plus all the top talent—drivers, engineers and management—is in the RB garage, not TR, so it'd be an intergalactic operational balls-up as well.
[quote=Bez ]The Red Bull name is immeasurably more valuable than Toro Rosso, so in marketing terms it'd be an intergalactic balls-up to let RB sink. Plus all the top talent—drivers, engineers and management—is in the RB garage, not TR, so it'd be an intergalactic operational balls-up as well.
So they just rename the Toro Rosso team Red Bull and vice versa, and switch all the staff from one team to the other, whilst retaining the contracts each team has 😉
aracer - have you been on a few too many cans of Red Bull!? 😀
Red Bull gives you wtfings 😉
Bez - Member
If McLaren have their eyes on becoming a PU constructor in 2021, which seems quite plausible, then I'd think it makes far more sense to retain the Renault badge as distinct from their own product.
Possible I suppose, working with Ricardo you think? Not sure they have the expertise in house.
No idea TBH but it seems to make marketing and R&D sense in terms of enlarging their supercar division in competition with Ferrari and Mercedes.
FI aero department have been busy!...
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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/force-india-singapore-shark-fin-mini-wings-952634/
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So Renault are not going to be renewing RedBulls contract then..
...it appears so - and from the end of 2018 too - which leaves them up a certain creak without a paddle.
Even if the Porsche taking them over rumours are true I can't see them building a new hybrid engine only to scrap it 2 years later.
So Renault are not going to be renewing RedBulls contract then..
Ooh? Source?
http://www.skysports.com/f1/live-blog/30104/10034948/f1-gossip-column
Red Bull-Renault now heading for divorce?
As Renault prepare to add McLaren to their customer engine roster from next season, the Daily Mail reports that the French manufacturer have notified long-time partners Red Bull that they won't be supplying them with engines after 2018.According to the newspaper, Renault have 'concluded that their fractious relationship with the Red Bull team has run its course' after a decade in partnership. Although the team-engine pairing won four consecutive world title doubles from 2010, Red Bull have failed to mount a title challenge since F1 switched to hybrid turbo engines in 2014. Amid repeated public criticism of Renault's power unit from Red Bull, the relationship nearly came to breaking point in 2015 before the two parties eventually signed a new three-year deal. However, the scars of that war of words were still visible in the terms of that new deal, which allowed Red Bull to sell naming rights to the engine.
With junior team Toro Rosso set to switch their Renault engines for Honda power from next season, Red Bull could theoretically take on the Japanese manufacturer themselves in 2019 if they deem it to be sufficiently competitive. Reports in recent days have also speculated about a Red Bull-Porsche tie-up when F1's next engine era begins in 2021.
They better hope that Honda engine comes good!
Thank you for the link.
Red Bull have made overtures to Honda before, back in 2015 I believe when the Renault turbo was misbehaving.
Heh. I guess my conjecture yesterday about Renault not wanting to supply RB wasn't far off 🙂
Pressure's back on Honda, then: they need to deliver a winning engine to RB in 2019.
But the same time the (short-term) pressure is lower as they are going to have more leeway with the performance of a mid-pack, development-ish, team than one that expects to win races next year. Interesting stuff
Yeah, they get one year to nail it. Like the last three years 🙂
Also it looks like their development feedback from the hot seat for that one year is going to come from a rookie and Kvyat. Hmm.
TBH most of the feedback on the Honda engine has come from the factory in Japan when they take it apart to find out which bit broke.
It's about time Renault stuck it to RedBull - Horner barely acknowledged them when they were winning the titles and then has given them nothing but grief since they stopped winning. At least McLaren kept to the party line with Honda until the cracks became too wide to paper over.
RB could be stuffed in 2019 if Honda isn't up to scratch by then.
There's huge penalties for them leaving F1 before at least 2020/maybe 2021.
There was talk of Porsche buying them out which I had dismissed but maybe that would give them a way out.
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/porsche-poised-red-bull-buyout
It's about time Renault stuck it to RedBull - Horner barely acknowledged them when they were winning the titles and then has given them nothing but grief since they stopped winning.
I agree, always thought Renault got a bit of a shitty deal with that one! 🙂
There was talk of Porsche buying them out which I had dismissed but maybe that would give them a way out.http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/porsche-poised-red-bull-buyout
It doesn't help them though. Porsche won't be bringing an engine to the table, so they'll be buying a team without an engine and may have to use a noncompetitive Honda engine.
There was talk of Porsche buying them out which I had dismissed but maybe that would give them a way out.
Yep. I dismissed it on this thread too, as there's potential conflict with the Aston Martin sponsorship amongst other things.
But, reading through the interviews with both RB drivers in the press, they're obviously jittery about the current run of form and the potential shortfall in performance once they lose Renault engines. Current rules dictate that if a team has no engine deal, then an engine supplier will be found. Merc, Renault and Ferrari will be at capacity...
...which leaves the option of a Honda customer engine deal for 2019-2021.
I can imagine that Verstappen and Ricciardo both want out before that happens.
Not sure if Renault went into this with a plan to stick it to Red Bull, but if they did, that was a brilliant bit of work; they got Sainz released from his contract, replaced a troublesome partner with one that will be grateful to have the second worst engine on the grid, and got McLaren and Alonso to use as a benchmark while they build up their own technical department. Can't imagine that Verstappen and Ricciardo will be wanting to hang around in the hope that Honda figure things out.
Current rules dictate that if a team has no engine deal, then an engine supplier will be found. Merc, Renault and Ferrari will be at capacity...
Honda might be at capacity too. How many engines have they supplied this year? It'll be far more than a third of the Mercedes or Ferrari number.
😆Honda might be at capacity too.
Yeah, they are probably supplying more engines to Mclaren than they did in the 80's turbo era, probably averaging 1 every 8 laps or something by now....
Honda might be at capacity too. How many engines have they supplied this year?
😀
Remember those "grenade" engines used for qualifying in the 1980s? Honda didn't get the memo that these had been banned.
Remember those "grenade" engines used for qualifying in the 1980s? Honda didn't get the memo that these had been banned.
From Wiki
By 1986, power figures were reaching unprecedented levels, with all engines reaching over 1,000 hp during qualifying with unrestricted turbo boost pressures; This was especially seen with the BMW engines of Benetton's cars, reaching around 1,350 hp at a 5.5 bar boost pressure during qualifying. However, these engines & gearboxes were very unreliable because of the engine's immense power, and would only last about four laps.
Honda [b]wish[/b] they would last 4 laps.... 😆
[quote=thepurist ]TBH most of the feedback on the Honda engine has come from the factory in Japan when they take it apart to find out which bit broke.
Indeed - but even if that wasn't the case, it's not like the driver is at all important regarding feedback for engine development. Even more subtle things like "drivability" can be measured.
Looks like Red Bull only have Renault until the end of 2018 whether they like it or not. The 19-20 deal has been dropped by Renault apparently.
I take it this means mclaren have signed an engine deal til 2020. What is happening in the driver market. Perez has 2 options ( FI / Williams?) , Palmer excited about f1 future, Kubica not with renault, JB still on mlcarens 3rd driver deal, Massa heading to Formula E, Sainz cant get enough renault rumours, Mad Max and Danny Ric getting tetchy about their power unit failures.
I'm in Singapore! Whoop. Traffic because of the F1 nearly ruined my lunch plans.....
Just left Singapore. $200 for a ground pass. Having a laugh they are. Not worth staying on for the weekend.
I'm leaving this evening. Just hope I can get my luggage from a hotel in the middle of the track!