[Closed] Explain the "Thatcher" thing to me

Oh no tootall I see her in context all right. Its the apologists for her that do not.

As for the drugs - It is an indisputable fact that the was a massive growth in heroin use in the 80s and most academics working in the area agree that there is a strong link between social exclusion, poverty and hard drug use.

If you pursue policies that lead to poverty and social exclusion then a rise in hard drug use is an inevitable corollary of this.

So yes - the heroin epidemic of the 80s while having multiple causes the most important one was the economic policies pursued by the tory governments.

Remember mass unemployment was a deliberate policy.

"rent a crowd" lazy stereotyping and acceptance of tory propaganda

Interesting political description of what she was and how she went about it, but a couple of points essentially missed, first off you have to remember this happened during 'life on mars seventies' wimmen hadn't really come to the fore and here she was a female absolutely ruling the 'wets' as they were called at the time (Wets were what you could best describe as the more humanitarian politicians in the Tory party).
We'd just suffered the late seventies with such low esteem as Brits, we couldn't afford to travel abroad, our currency was worth nothing, inflation had eroded everything, you would apologise for being a Brit it was that bad.
Don't get me wrong here, I absolutely hated the woman for the way she pretty much militarised the police, deregulated everything, imported Reganomics and was totally enthralled to that monetarist Alan Whateverhisname was.
In the winter of 81-2 however she was on the ropes, the recession she'd caused had pissed everyone off and she'd have been resigned to the margins of history had the Argies not invaded the Malvinas, she seized that opportunity, galvanised the tossers, was Churchillian in her response and given we didn't have much going on in the way of firepower, did a fair job of beating up a third world nation in true tradition of Empire and Gunboat diplomacy and won the day, sinking the Belgrano showed a totally ruthless streak, from there on in, all the right wing yuppy rednecks had a field day..

But strangely we did as a nation all feel a bit better about ourselves and the good old eighties ensued and damn I wish I was back there counting the loadsamoney I made back then, not that I ever voted for her or them, I'm still an SDP man at heart.

But the worse travesty of modern times, we eventually kick the bastards out and in the spring of 97 with a new hope a fresh young Blair and his steadfast dour Scottish companion looking to keep him anchored all was going to be so much better... What was that song again?

Her government did some good stuff and some not so good stuff, like most governments in fact.
The vitriolic hatred is, IMO, more than just political/ideological/social opposition, it's a convenient 'catch all' for the disaffected underacheiving 60's kids who thought they 'had it all to live for' when in fact it was 'all to work for'

It is odd to see so many comfortably off, self proclaimed middle class 40-50 somethings ranting and frothing in defence of the underclass - I mean that phrase says it all, "underclass" - when of course you guys are "upperclass" then I guess.

"It" was there all the time, the Thatcher government just bought it out into plain sight, there's always been whingers and scroungers and skivers and I guess there always will be - it's the downside of a society with social care and support that some will see it as an opportunity to freeload rather than as a means of caring for those with genuine need.....

And, it all rather begs the question: if Fatch was as bad as you now proclaim why did she survive so long and why didn't your "undeclass" rise up and overthrow the shackles (and what were [i]you[/i] doing about it) - possibly because most working people weren't doing quite as badly as you now claim.

And Yes, I was there, and No it wasn't the Fatch-a-geddon you now like to conveniently blame for all your problems.
Get over it, and do something positive instead of bleating and whining.........

We got 'policed'

Worksop roundabout on the A1, stopped and refused permission to carry on and told to **** off back to where we came from
They refused to believe that 2 lads on motorbikes were actually heading off to Holland to watch motorbike racing

Policing Thatcher style
[img] [/img]

She came into power to clean up a right shit mess that Labour had created for almost a decade.

People in basic jobs tend to blame people as far as their nose. Rather than the economic situation that got the country into that situation. So they blamed the current government (Thatchers) for the decisions she had to take.

Then these same folk told their children it wasn't Daddies fault but Thatchers why they were being brought up in straightened-circumstances.

Maybe if Daddy had worked harder or read some books at school then a generation of kids who grew up 'hating Thatcher' might actually have known the truth or blamed their own ****ing parents.

What would have happened if Wilson had still been in power in the Falklands invasion? We'd have folded on that and forever more our reputation tarnished globally.

On milk, I drank it all through the 80's at school. Hateful lukewarm stuff out of small glass bottles!!

Funny, even ironic how Scargill is now ****ing over his own union isn't it?

I'm neither a fan or a hater of her as my own family grew up in poverty however I do admire the woman.

Stronger than any male leader we've had in decades.

I'll leave it there and wont get involved in ongoing arguing. Pointless as you need to blame your own parents for your upbringing than a government.

No jobs? Travel, move. Look at the thousands of immigrants coming here for a better life.

What would have happened if Wilson had still been in power in the Falklands invasion? We'd have folded on that and forever more our reputation tarnished globally

I blame George III

She came into power to clean up a right shit mess that Labour had created for almost a decade.

(and what were you doing about it)

Active in trade unions, working in healthcare, supporting my missus working with the poorest in society as a volunteer. We did what we could.

The vitriolic hatred is because of what she symbolises. The greed and begger my neighbour attitude and the deliberate creation of an underclass of long term unemployed which is a matter of historical record.

The huge rise in unemployment especially long term unemployment and youth unemployment along with the huge reduction in benefits caused massive social ills that we still are paying the price for today. You may belive this is a price worth paying as she did but to deny its existence is ridiculous in the face of the historical record

She brought the top tax rate down from 83% to 40%.

If any lentil eating socialist lefty wuss thinks that's wrong, you can meet me behind the bike sheds after school and I'll knock some sense into you.

I was but a child during the eighties and my parents were working class and they were staunch Maggie fans.

I like Maggie.

"rent a crowd" lazy stereotyping and acceptance of tory propaganda

No. Just years of conversations with people who were actually there TJ.

I'd put the housing policies of Glasgow City on a par with your causes as well. Your quoted areas of Darnley, Arden and Carnawrdric are often held up as examples of terrible social housing that just moved problems and created new ones. That was going on since the 50s as they were essentially inner city slum clearance - exactly the same as areas of the North East (Meadowell Estate, Byker Wall etc) that suffered similar problems for similar reasons. Your desire to argue back to 'Thatcher' reflects the personification that undermines a rational arguement.

Whether you are a fan or not, it will be a sad day when shes passes away.

I don't think anyone can have the same emotion over Gordon Brown or his Tony Bliar.

TandemJeremy - Member
The greed and begger my neighbour attitude and the deliberate creation of an underclass of long term unemployed which is a matter of historical record.

Why keep calling them "underclass" ? little bit patronising isn't it...

..and I'm sure the rise of consumerism and capitalist values would have happened regardless.
Labour Party hardly "put it right" when they had the chance did they....

Emsz, she was the prime mover in shutting down most of the basic industries in the North East, where I'm from. Whole towns annd villages essentially had their life support switched off, and many have never recovered.

That wouldn't have been so bad if it was part of a political strategy to gradually switch away from coal mining & steel production. But no, this was politics driven by a purely ideological hatred of the unions and a desire to break them. Politics is, as they say, the art of the possible, and needs to be driven by pragmatism, realism, and just a little bit of ideology.

Thatcher had way too much ideology, and didn't have any real clue about what to do once she'd shut everything down. Then again, because the people she put out of work were mainly Northern manual workers who would never have voted for her, why did she need to care? They could just get on theior beikes and find a new job somewhere else.

And then she did what every political leader has done when times got bad - she took us to war, and wrapped herself in the flag.

She's a despicable woman, and I'll be happy when she's dead.

(and what were you doing about it)

Broke into [they left a window open] the the local Tory club and shat on the billiard table 🙂

Sorry, I got sidetracked about clause 28. I'd heard about it but never really understood it. Kinda understand now why my school were so relunctant to do anything about the bullying I got. Interesting.

GlitterGary not a troll I promise, I really just wanted to try to understand why she provokes such divided views.
TJ I don't understand why a govt would Diliberatly make a whole class of unemployed people, it makes no sense

You can't blame Thatcher for todays problems, only insofar as Blair wanted to be like her, whilst Brown wanted to be something else, either way it is they who have totally ****ed everything up, they had a chance to undo the so called 'evils' of deregulation but didn't, they lapped it up, totally eradicated boom and bust as I recall..

As to immigration we've bred a nation of wannabe celebs, they want MTB style cribs, the trappings of pop celebrity without necessarily having the talent, after all Jade Goody became famous so why can't they?

Eastern Europeans know the truth, money comes with work, so they wash our cars, wait table, serve at reception desks, carry our hods up ladders and do all the things that our would be celebs don't want to do, whilst they queue up for X-factor, or wire into X-Box transported to an alternate reality.

Sadly until we stop paying em to do nothing, nothing is what they'll continue to do, until they become famous of course.

What really needs to happen is a fresh ideology based on equality and fair play for all, globally, enough being defined and limited with wealth distributed more equally, some form of modern day communocapitolism, something for the kids to get behind and rebel, maybe throw up some conviction politicians, life can't go on like this, with no hope for a better future and just looking for scapegoats in the past.

nickf so if you found there was no work in your area now what would you do?

Would you feel right sitting on the dole?

We all speak the same language in this country. So why didn't your folks do this?

Thatcher wanted to close the unprofitable state-mines. The resulting long industry strikes (thanks Scargill) had a crippling effect which ended up with alot more closing.

Would you have proposed running loss-making businesses as the right thing to do on the back of the fact Labour had driven the economy into the ground hence where she was coming from.

She was trying to bring the UK out of the brink and the ****ing idiot unions held a YEAR long strike....just like what the unions had tried with Labour previously.

I think you should pissing on your own who feast off you still than her fella.

As a Scot who grew up in the 80's best if I don't contribute to this,as I struggle to be objective. I don't hate her [b]anymore[/b] as she is a once sharp,determined woman who is imprisoned by dementia. But God,she broke my country.

TJ I don't understand why a govt would Diliberatly make a whole class of unemployed people, it makes no sense

(simplistically) Two aims -one is to drive down the cost of labour. if there are loads of people looking for work then you can get people to take on those jobs under low wages thus increasing profits. The second is to break the power of the unions. (Along with laws brought in by her government) But it removes the power of the strike if you have a large number of people so desperate for work that they will cross picket lines. also the job losses were concentrated in highly unionise areas.

Mass unemployment creates the conditions for a transfer of wealth from poor to rich.

In thatchers own words " its a price worth paying" and " if its not hurting its not working"

GlitterGary not a troll I promise, I really just wanted to try to understand why she provokes such divided views.

TJ I don't understand why a govt would Diliberatly make a whole class of unemployed people, it makes no sense

Maybe not a whole class, but as a policy having a proportion of a people unemployed may keep inflation down.
[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_curve [/url]

TandemJeremy - Member
TJ I don't understand why a govt would Diliberatly make a whole class of unemployed people, it makes no sense
(simplistically) Two aims -one is to drive down the cost of labour. if there are loads of people looking for work then you can get people to take on those jobs under low wages thus increasing profits. The second is to break the power of the unions. (Along with laws brought in by her government) But it removes the power of the strike if you have a large number of people so desperate for work that they will cross picket lines. also the job losses were concentrated in highly unionise areas.

Mass unemployment creates the conditions for a transfer of wealth from poor to rich.

In thatchers own words " its a price worth paying" and " if its not hurting its not working"

Hmm I think your in danger of a distinct lack of objectivity, I seem to remember the ad that got her elected was a picture of crowds headed to the dole queue and the legend "Labours not Working' which it wasn't and unemployment was already high and like now, you had unions making unrealistic demands.

a picture of crowds headed to the dole queue and the legend "Labours not Working' which it wasn't and unemployment was already high

See if you can guess from the graph when it was she was elected

[img] [/img]

So to summise.

1970's - economy run into the ground through rampant inflation, unsustainable public sector bills, unions striking.

1980's - someone has to turn things round, pull the country back from the brink and close loss-makers etc that caused the issues.

Who gets it in the neck? Is it her fault that historically the only real thing that Wales, NE had were really dependent on a small number of industries.

Whose fault was that?

Esmz - Thatcher was personally utterly homophobic. Thanks Junkyard for bringing up section 28, it's often overlooked amongst all the other appalling things that were introduced during the Thatcher / Conservative years.

I was living in inner city Leeds with my girlfriend at the time, and I still have a taped copy of one of Thatchers speeches where she said:

"The trouble with the youth of today is that they think they have an unalienable right to be gay"

Too damn right we do! (Actually we sampled it, and mixed it with a Kylie song which started 'We should be so lucky ..." 🙂 )

Personally, dancing shoes at the ready, singing along to the witch is dead.

Easy Hora, you're beginning to sound like you mean it 😆

I always liked Frankie Boyles comments about the proposal for a state funeral for her, which would supposedly cost three million pounds - "three million quid - for that money, you could buy everyone in Scotland a shovel, and we'd dig a hole so deep we could hand her over to Satan personally".
It's difficult for me to say anything positive about the woman, I saw at first hand the damage her policies caused, a legacy that is still seen and felt here in South Yorkshire. My disco slippers are very much ready, and furthermore, my bladder's full to bursting point.

Emsz she did "deliberately make a whole class of unemployed people" there is no such thing as society , i'm old enough to remember before during and after THATCHER pre Thatch the unions had massive power could hold the country to ransom and humiliate the Govt winter of discontent power cuts rubbish in the streets unburied dead.

The then traditional conservative govt plan was to do the best in the circumstances, Thatcher changed that by having a strong ideology monetarism individuality etc, She welcomed a fight with the unions and was happy to destroy the primary and secondary industries where union power was strong. Her aim was to change the economy from a balanced one to a financial industries powerhouse hence the rise of the Banker and Broker.

The result in the industrial/mining areas was and is catastrophic many thriving working communities lost the bulk of their jobs and became sink estates certainly where I'm from the use and supply of drugs went through the roof as boredom bread demand and lack of income became a motive to offend.

The Police became a political tool " i joined to serve my community i ended up helping to destroy it " is a quote from a south yorks bobby.

A wide section of society loved her she was a powerful and charismatic leader with a strong sense of self belief but there is a massive difference between being popular and being right. As stated above she bought the economic boom by flogging off the country's assets ultimately to trans national companies which withdraw the capital and jobs so ruining the country.

I don't blame Thatcher alone but she was the front person and claimed personal credit , the Tory party soon gave her the elbow when they thought it suited them .

I do Blame and hate Blair with a passion i voted for that murdering deceitful Thatcher spawn.

I'll mourn the day. What a woman. Not like every politician since. Cameron is a bloody makeweight/wishy-washy with weak leadership.

ding dong, she dead yet? ps bitch stole my milk in 87!

I do Blame and hate Blair with a passion i voted for that murdering deceitful Thatcher spawn

I'll mourn the day. What a woman. Not like every politician since. Cameron is a bloody makeweight/wishy-washy with weak leadership.

❓

I vote that on the fateful day we all go round to Hora's house and hold a party - we can wear paper hats, blow those paper tube things and follow him around all day laughing at his tears! 😆

from BBC article, sum her up..

what I can never forget or forgive Thatcher for was the vindictive way that she systematically destroyed the coal mining industry of this country.

It was done not for any economic reason, it was pure out and out revenge for the actions that brought down the Heath government.

ive witnessed first hand those dark days in Wales, the irony is coal will come back.

also she gave the order to destroy an argentine ship when it was outside the exclusion zone and heading home. but we wont go into that one!

She stole my milk when I was at school.
Maggie Thatcher - Milk Snatcher.

Actually I reckon that the people who love her to bits are a bit into dominatrices and have a desire for spanking.

Dunno why. It has always been an image that stuck in my head when people eulogise her. "Ooh PM I've been a [b]very[/b] naughty boy..." 😀

As for that film - it is too early to make it. From what I hear it portrays her in a very positive light (most probably to get the US dollars flowing in). A film like this is best made about 20 years after her death so both positive and negative views have settled somewhat and a more rounded view can be seen.

Some bullet points:

- Thatcher wanted to close the loss-making mines (20 out of 160).
- Unions vowed to stand united to oppose any closures as they had also bullied the previous government. So walked out for a year.

In the end it ended up with more being closed.

- Alot of Policemen made a packet in overtime payments
- Scargill lives a guilded lifestyle at the expense the Miners Union still.

Who are the losers?

I think you can have some grudging admiration for her abilities to follow a policy even when it was massively resented

... but the term "hard-faced cow" must have been invented specifically for her

I'm glad the tories ****ed her off when she'd outlived her usefulness - it's what she would've [s]wanted[/s] done

(Addit - that was in no way a response to you Hora. You really can't see who the losers were ?? 😯 )

I think you can have some grudging admiration for her abilities to follow a policy even when it was massively resented

Agree apart from the invasion of Iraq (the mass march on London protest) every politician seems to listen and temper their line accordingly.

As someone who was old enough to remember but not vote for or care much about Thatcher, I find this fascinating. What seems clear is there once was a time when politics was properly divisive; when one party very clearly stood for different values than another; when your political allegiance defined who you were as a person rather than what tit-bit you craved from the latest manifesto come election time.

I want to contribute to this thread. Unfortunately I can't. I can't even read it, as it will invariably involve someone, probably Hora, defending the nasty, hideous, poisonous, vindictive, evil corrosive bitch.

I'll let Mr Costello summarise my feelings more eloquently

TJ I don't understand why a govt would Diliberatly make a whole class of unemployed people

What I was going to say has been posted. The unions were able to get whatever they wanted by calling strikes whenever they felt like it. I think that this was a major problem in British industry.

However, she solved that paritcular problem by destroying the industries that were most powerful. Except that had the side effects of destroying many communities and towns. Imagine a town where most people worked for a particular employer, and suddenly that employer is shut down. What are you going to do? You've only got one skill and all the other employers are also shut down.

They claimed at the time that British coal was uneconomical to produce. Well, some of it probably was, either because it was being mined out or because the mines were not efficiently run. In any case, one of these mines was bought by a consortium of people who worked there using their own redundancy payments, and continued to operate at a profit for what - 15 years? Until they actually had run out of coal which was just a few years ago. [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_Colliery ]The Tower Colliery[/url] - the local mine of my Dad's village - two of my Uncles worked there for a time, my Gramps worked there all his life. My Dad also worked in the mines but at Glynneath on the other side of the mountain.

Come on Binners, you can join me at Hora's house come the day... 😆

Why don't people blame their parents for the way their life turned out?

Or blame themselves?

If theres no work in deepest Wales, why not ****ing move to where there is work.

"No lad you see I've lived here for generations and I'm ****ed if I'm going elsewhere. I'd rather sit here in a council house drawing benefits whilst feeling quasi-proud about not moving away from my roots' and blame someone for not knocking on my door and providing work just a bicycle ride away.

Of **** off.