IANAL but for those that are saying lawyer up, why? She's not on the deeds and put no equity into the purchase
From there
Cohabitees do not have the same legal protections which their married counterparts benefit from.
Legally she's entitled to nothing. She could try and take you to court but she has zero right to anything related to the property value.
If it was me, she'd get £10k at best to bugger off
Are people seriously suggesting that unmarried folk should be getting tenancy contracts written up before moving in together?
Surely she had a 21% stake in the house (£75k of the £350k purchase)
How did you work that out? She sold her house and the equity cleared her debt, the OP financed £200k and took the remaining £150k as a mortgage. Her stake is £10k vs £207k which works out at 4.83% of £217k.
4.83% of 150k works out at £7.24k unless I'm missing something.
Just to say ignore my earlier post. We were both on the mortgage. I'm thinking those posters who are saying she is not entitled to anything are probably right. But you do have to get her out which is likely to cost something.
In fact I remember someone I once knew was in a similar situation. Got nothing. But she had moved out of the flat.
Surely she had a 21% stake in the house
Mortgage is in OP's name, she has taken no long-term financial risk. If they jointly had the liability, you might be able to make that argument.
Although that 150K part of the property is theoretically worth over 200K now, it remains mortgaged and OP will have the obligation to pay well in excess of 150K over the term of the mortgage.
The 200K which he contributed to the deal will have secured a more favourable interest rate or term.
And I doubt the mortgage balance has been paid down by much more than 10K in the first two years, unless they're overpaying.
In terms of fairness, the money she has put in is her half of the balance reduction to this point, increased by 43%. That is the equity which she has put into the property. Plus the 3K.
To what degree it is worth arguing the toss is between OP and, as has been strongly advised, his solicitor.
I was in this situation 20 years ago, so combined with that and the experience of other friends I'd say a couple of things. Get the £30k together asap as that's cheap to cut them out of your life. BUT and its the big but get proper advice so that the cut is legally binding. Don't delay as she is bound to talk to people who (right or wrong) will inflate her idea of what she is entitled to.
She will have acquired some equitable interest in the property by virtue of the fact she has contributed to the mortgage repayments and has done some work/paid for work to be done.
As per the link to Citizens Advice.
MoreCashThanDash
As per the link to Citizens Advice.
As per my 16 years as a qualified solicitor!
Legally she’s entitled to nothing. She could try and take you to court but she has zero right to anything related to the property value.
It’s not as simple as that. She has limited rights but not zero, the fact she sold her house, paid to do some improvements and gave the OP money toward the mortgage means she has the right to argue that they believed in part contributing to the home.
As per my 16 years as a qualified solicitor!
A goodly percentage of the country doesn't believe in Experts mate...
Legally she’s entitled to nothing.
That's not correct, which is why the OP needs professional advice.
So the answer to WWSTWD (What Would Single Track World Do)?? Is STWWLU (SingleTrackWorld Would Lawyer Up).
A goodly percentage of the country doesn’t believe in Experts mate…
Evidently even the one they’ve linked to.
What would I do - pay her £30k, get is signed off legally and move on.
Would I be bitter, for a bit but in the big scheme it could end up costing you more money and stress. What price do you put on your health.
Good luck, rubbish situation to be in.
What the hell are you lot doing that you can afford to pay off an ex girlfriend £30k she isn't necessarily entitled to just to get rid of her never mind pull it out your arses at the drop of a hat?
does this not fall into common law wife type thing?
i.e. shes got half of the house (and half of the debts)
get a lawyer
im a trusts solicitor who deals with this kind of thing, I've not read all the replies but basically if you're the sole legal owner then it will be up to her to assert a claim of beneficial ownership, as 'equity follows the law', then the starting position is that you are sole owner of the legal and beneficial title. And therefore she's not entitled to anything.
A declaration of trust will be the starting point in terms of how you have agreed to share the beneficial title. However, I get the impression there isn't one.
However, she may be able to assert a claim based on her contribution to the mortgage and general expenditure. The ball is entirely in her court in respect of this. However, the current status quo, sounds like a nightmare.
you can be proactive and seek a declaration from the Court as to your level of beneficial interest under Section 14 of 'ToLATA' Trusts of Land and Appointment of Trustees Act 1996. If she's already got legal advice then its likely in relation to a claim under this act. It might be the case that if you're engaging with her solicitors then you can agree she moves out as a preliminary issue if that suits you both, perhaps an agreement to waive any occupation rent etc
sorry in a bit of a rush but will go through the thread this evening
Jakester has given the only advice you need from STW!
Talk to a professional, although don't (willingly) hand it over to a solicitor unless you want protracted back and forth and the associated animosity, at great cost... All before realising the law is often quite clear and it was all just a waste of time and the outcome was probably a foregone conclusion.
does this not fall into common law wife type thing?
Except there's no such thing as a common law wife....
What would I do – pay her £30k, get is signed off legally and move on.
This.
If you’ve both been paying the mortgage, just let her take some of the increased value of the property and move on. Do it with a legal agreement in place though.
It may have been said before, but without being a solicitor, the way I would see it, is that - house value, minus the deposit YOU paid, minus outstanding mortgage - 50% of the balance/equity is what she is due. Quite a bit more than £30k, I'd say
I found myself in a similar position and was badly hit, both financially and emotionally, by the whole experience.
As above, get a solicitor involved asap. Make her a generous offer to go away (ie, just give her what she is asking for but do it quickly before she gets pissed off). All common sense and reasonability evaporates incredibly quickly in these situations.
If she gets an expensive, aggressive and effective solicitor then you could easily lose half of your house and thousands more in solicitor fees.
On the not moving out front, one reluctant non-paying tennant moved out when the electricity was cut off for non-payment. I've happily lived in places with no leccy but not many people will. 🙂
It may have been said before, but without being a solicitor, the way I would see it, is that – house value, minus the deposit YOU paid, minus outstanding mortgage – 50% of the balance/equity is what she is due. Quite a bit more than £30k, I’d say
That wouldn't track for me.
Why should they get the same amount out when one has put in >20x more?
It may have been said before, but without being a solicitor, the way I would see it, is that – house value, minus the deposit YOU paid, minus outstanding mortgage – 50% of the balance/equity is what she is due. Quite a bit more than £30k, I’d say
🙄🤔
Have you got any mates with questionable personal hygiene habits that you could move in?
She will have rights to live there. Any attempt to force her out or harass her in any way could land you in deep legal trouble. don't do it.
She could play the same game as you
She will also have rights to some of the equity and IMO the only moral way is as ASTR says. £30 grand is a very generous offer from her,
Is everyone blind to fingerbangs post then? He has pretty much covered all the legal, everything else is just conjecture.
Lodgers are 'excluded occupiers'. This means that your landlord can evict you without going to court.
and
If your agreement doesn’t say anything about notice or you don’t have a written agreement, then your landlord needs to give you reasonable notice.
Reasonable notice could be short. For example, a week if you pay rent weekly. The notice doesn’t need to be in writing and could be verbal.
I'd pay to speak to a solicitor about sorting out a "full and final settlement" agreement and payment for her to sign.
If she still doesn't leave.....a lodger has no rights.
Is everyone blind to fingerbangs post then? He has pretty much covered all the legal, everything else is just conjecture.
He did have a big fat 'if' in there. plus some more 'however'.
but basically if you’re the sole legal owner
Needs the OP really to fill in the blanks.
If the house was worth £350k and she’s ostensibly financed £7k then her share might more be reasonably calculated as 2% of the equity.
Oh and if you wanted to be especially forthright/(vindictive), you could just change the locks and leave her stuff outside. To all intents and purposes she’s a lodger with no right of tenure.
Basing an argument on ignorance and vindictive behaviour, is I would suggest, perhaps not the best course of action if the OP wants to walk away from this with his dignity!
Hence all the continual advice to "speak to a solicitor"...
From what I can see she has not been contributing to the mortgage, she’s effectively been paying you rent
Who was she paying...? The Mortgage company or the OP? If the OP, was it an agreed "rent" and declared as such (tax implications and all)? Taking a few hundred quid per month off someone to let them live under the same roof as you may raise a number of questions in itself!
Are people seriously suggesting that unmarried folk should be getting tenancy contracts written up before moving in together?
If you aren't splitting everything 50:50, and you don't want the risk of anything turning sour somewhere down the line should the relationship fail... Then yes, absolutely.
Get the £30k together asap as that’s cheap to cut them out of your life. BUT and its the big but get proper advice so that the cut is legally binding. Don’t delay as she is bound to talk to people who (right or wrong) will inflate her idea of what she is entitled to.
Inclined to agree... Might suggest that anybody disagreeing would be in for some serious headaches, and might wish they hadn't been so stubborn in the long run!
What the hell are you lot doing that you can afford to pay off an ex girlfriend £30k she isn’t necessarily entitled to just to get rid of her never mind pull it out your arses at the drop of a hat?
It's not about finding it stashed down the back of the sofa, or any illicit dealings really is it?!?! 🤷🏻♂️
The house is worth some £500k, the OP has probably 70% equity in it now due to a large deposit and an increase in value... Remortgaging to free up £30k cash would be a piece of piss, and probably only increase his mortgage payments by £100 or so per month... Assuming he has no savings that is of course.
I'd sell my car and any other non essential items I own and consider it a cheap lesson myself!
Thankfully I've no experience of this, but it sounds like you need a solicitor regardless of whether you choose to fight her or need an agreement drawn up so I'd echo all of the above about getting one ASAP.
Other than her refusal to move out til you pay up, are things amicable? Agree with squirrelking that £30k is a lot of money to most people so is there any room for negotiation without involving solicitors?
The sums above seem about right but don't take into account things like risk on your part by taking on the mortgage on your own (what if something happened and you defaulted, would she accept half the money owed if the house was repossessed for some reason?), the fact your deposit will have secured a much lower interest rate on the debt (which would in turn bring down the repayments, benefitting her) and how much it might have cost to rent in that time (quite a bit more I'd bet).
If things are amicable enough maybe you can sit down and work out a figure you are both comfortable with, and that you can actually afford to pay her without putting yourself into trouble. Then just get a solicitor to draw it up, quickly!
I have no advice to give, or experience here... but an idle questions... Surely the value of any 'asset' is only realised when it is sold? And does the value take into account cost of selling etc? So the maths is hypothetical?
how much it might have cost to rent in that time
The theoretical sunk cost of renting is irrelevant here, if she was paying towards the mortgage rather than a tenant. Ignoring all the legal battle or not talk... why not just get an agreement to pay what her mortgage payments have have helped the OP "earn" thanks to the increase in the value of the house? Morally... why not? If they want to decide, now that they've split, that she was really paying informal rent, that they weren't working together to pay for the house... well, they might find a way to do that legally, but if they know it's not true.... why do it?
I know she's a horrible cow and we all hate her an that, but doesn't someone who's given 2 years of their life to living in a partnership, and expected to live that way forever, deserve to be able to afford somewhere to live now that relationship hasn't worked out?
£30K doesn't seem to go far in that respect.
But me, I'd boot her penniless out the front door first opportunity me.
exactly, rule 1 and all that, I don't know whether this place is just full of the typical bitter, twisted misogynist misfits that most male-dominated pastimes seem to collect, but there are a lot of heartless ****s on here today 🤣I know she’s a horrible cow and we all hate her an that, but doesn’t someone who’s given 2 years of their life to living in a partnership, and expected to live that way forever, deserve to be able to afford somewhere to live now that relationship hasn’t worked out?
That said, new poster just joined a couple of days ago, sure this isn't going to turn out to be about Ukraine or Crimea & the ex is Putin?! 😃
new poster just joined a couple of days ago
Or long term member who prefers to remain anonymous so opened a second account.
Edit: Hmm, could be my sense of humour is taking a break of course!
The theoretical sunk cost of renting is irrelevant here, if she was paying towards the mortgage rather than a tenant. Ignoring all the legal battle or not talk… why not just get an agreement to pay what her mortgage payments have have helped the OP “earn” thanks to the increase in the value of the house?
Yeah I proposed that and gave workings, looks like £7.24k. That's quite a far way south of the £30k most here would just hand over without question.
I know she’s a horrible cow and we all hate her an that, but doesn’t someone who’s given 2 years of their life to living in a partnership, and expected to live that way forever, deserve to be able to afford somewhere to live now that relationship hasn’t worked out?
I don’t know whether this place is just full of the typical bitter, twisted misogynist misfits that most male-dominated pastimes seem to collect, but there are a lot of heartless **** on here today 🤣
1) She decided to leave that partnership. Which wasn't a marriage or any legally recognised relationship.
2) She already had her own house but used the equity to pay off debts she racked up.
3) Er, tough shit really. She's a big girl, my sister in law just went through the same thing. We helped her out massively and she's paying us back when she can.
4) The OP is not a charity.
5) I'd be saying the same about any money grabber regardless of what they have hanging between their legs (or not).
...typical bitter, twisted misogynist misfits...
I think I might've spotted one!
A question I don't think has been asked yet,
Has she taken legal advice or has she just gone "I'm off, you smell, that'll be £30k thanks"?
My understanding (mostly from reading links on this thread) is that she's automatically entitled to nothing whatsoever, she's likely entitled to "beneficial interest" as fingerbang said but it would be down to her to demonstrate that rather than just pull a figure out of her chuff and then hold out her hand.
Two years is jeff all in the grand scheme of things. Offer her 10k and then change the locks. 😁
then change the locks
Do NOT do this. A whole world of legal pain lies down that road. She will have residence rights.
I don’t know whether this place is just full of the typical bitter, twisted misogynist misfits that most male-dominated pastimes seem to collect
I haven't really been arguing one side or the other. I think it's reasonable that she should get something, I think that half the equity (that some others are suggesting) when she's contributed <5% of the costs is extreme. I'm not sure about her proposed £30k.
I think it's fairly misogynistic to assume that she wouldn't be able to cope without receiving £30k. If it was the other way around, I'd be saying the same things.
The theoretical sunk cost of renting is irrelevant here
I don't think it is irrelevant, she's benefited from the money she's spent. If she can recoup her "investment", shouldn't the OP be allowed to recoup his additional costs, too?
See this is why marriage still has some merit (or of course buying a house in joint name). Takes away a lot of the guesswork when it all goes pear shaped.
Yeah I proposed that and gave workings, looks like £7.24k. That’s quite a far way south of the £30k most here would just hand over without question.
Really? I think most (and especially those with some experience in this area) are saying get some legal advice, rather than taking figures from internet nobodies.
she’s benefited from the money she’s spent
So has he.
Takes away a lot of the guesswork when it all goes pear shaped.
Really?! Talk to more divorcees.
Ultimately, the OP should seek something fair and final. Even if hurt by the breakup, they probably know that as their ex-partner has contributed to the mortgage, and the home has gone up massively in value, they should probably release some of that equity gained and help them get established and moved on. The legal advice should probably be about how to try and make that official and "final", rather than how to avoid paying anything, no?
That said, new poster just joined a couple of days ago, sure this isn’t going to turn out to be about Ukraine or Crimea & the ex is Putin?!
that was my thought when i read it earlier..
