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In those terms then both science and religion are creations of man. Both the manifestation of man wanting to rationalise and explain that which is around him. Like I said earlier both tied by the same rope.
I heard this once and I liked it "is god as much a creation of man as man is a creation of god?"
I also heard this "To be ignorant of one's ignorance is the malady of the ignorant"
I think that they sum it up along with mrmo quote quite nicely.
Interesting molgrips.
But maybe some religious folk aren't getting it either. He goes through all of this effort to create life and give you the oportunity to live it (by way of miracle), and all you can think is:
it's about the idea that above all of the crap of every day life, there is someone or something that loves you unconditionally and will look after you ultimately, even when you die miserably.
If I was him I'd wonder why I bothered.
Once you start saying things like 'maybe God is the universe' you're not talking about anything anymore. Sure it's big and mystical sounding but it's just noise. All it's doing is trying to make people's sky fairy beliefs look a little less shaky.
I don't actually believe in god like I've said before I'm playing devils advocate. I don't think its a far stretch to say it though. God is dark matter/the universe/higgs boson/the reason gravity is such a weak force/human suffering/greed/envy/lust. You get the idea.
I don't actually believe in god like I've said before I'm playing devils advocate. I don't think its a far stretch to say it though. God is dark matter/the universe/higgs boson/the reason gravity is such a weak force/human suffering/greed/envy/lust. You get the idea.
I see what you're saying, but it just seems that in justifying some belief in some God you've simultaneously made it/Him totally redundant.
Yup thats pretty much it.
No sorry, but outside of a particularly lucid trip you can't really claim that god is the omnipotent creator of all things, who watches over us all with unquestioning love and forgiveness, who sent his only son to die for our sins; OR he might actually be something to do with a top quark anti-quark pairing in theoretical physics.
Besides, I thought it was the Devil that was in the details?
Who actually said that?
When it comes down to it, people believe in a god because they want to, despite the lack of any evidence and choose to ignore inconvenient discoveries made by mankind.
They adhere to (some of)the rules of a religion for a one or more of the following:
indoctrinated fear('what if it just might be true?')
A feeling of helplessness
Belonging to a social group
indoctrinated fear('what if it just might be true?')
A feeling of helplessness
Belonging to a social group
Just like being a member of the stw forum then? 😀
But maybe some religious folk aren't getting it either.
Quite possibly 🙂
you can't really claim that god is the omnipotent creator of all things, who watches over us all with unquestioning love and forgiveness, who sent his only son to die for our sins
Sure you can!
And remember - other people's criteria for belief are not necessarily the same as yours. That's all it boils down to, and is impossible to overturn without straying into the area of ramming your beliefs down someone else's throat. Scientist OR religionist!
"To be ignorant of one's ignorance is the malady of the ignorant"
or even: "To be ignorant of one's ignorance is the malady of the [b]informed[/b]" 🙂
Bloody hell Andy, you've stirred them up good & proper! 😀
Kinda quoting me out of context there molgrips.
The point of the statement is that folk can't really expect to be taken seriously if they say "Yeah He's this big ghost with a beard and sandals who created everything" [u]and then[/u] point to some obscure theoretical particle physics and say "Look there he is!"
Why not Graham? You don't have to actually think that the world was created in seven days do you? I mean one of gods days could be around a billion of our years.
The point of the statement is that folk can't really expect to be taken seriously if they say "Yeah He's this big ghost with a beard and sandals who created everything" and then point to some obscure theoretical particle physics and say "Look there he is!"
Yep, he's right. No fudging. Religion aint science, cos science is about removing doubt, and doubt is one of the necessary components of faith … I think?
cos science is about removing doubt
and unfounded assertion. Isn't science the formalisation of doubt ?
Sorry Graham, mis-read your original post.
You could claim that God could be more than one thing. Very common in world religions, in fact.
The idea of God actually being the Higgs boson doesn't realy stand up though. Higgs boson being some kind of manifestation, or intrusion into our dimensions - that's another possibility. But equally, so could all matter.
But that's all theoretical. God really exists as an artefact of religions - that is unquestionable. Where the universe came from is something of a different debate. As is the true nature of reality. If we live in but three dimensions of many, then a hell of a lot of weird things are possible.
Isn't science the formalisation of doubt ?
Isn't that the process, rather than the output?
So scientific enquiry formalises doubt and investigates … resulting in scientific proof, with doubt removed … ?
This all getting a bit philosophical now...
Just to repeat...Big Bang: Bollocks!
Big Bang: Bollocks!
🙂
alex222 - Member
Why not Graham?
Because if "god" can be openly defined as anything, everything or nothing, observable or unobservable, physical, mental, or supernatural then surely everyone must believe in he/she/them/it/other, as literally everything (and nothing) is evidence.
or as MrSalmon succinctly put it: [I]"you're not talking about anything anymore. Sure it's big and mystical sounding but it's just noise"[/I]
resulting in scientific proof, with doubt removed … ?
resulting in a new hypothesis more consistent with observed measurements...
resulting in a new hypothesis more consistent with observed measurements...
Ah, OK.
Anyway, I think the sentiment of my original comment still stands. You can't cook up some particles in a big test tube and say 'Look - there's God!'.
Graham/Mol I think you missunderstood me I wasn't saying that god was actually the higgs boson or lust for that matter or that I thought either of those things, I was trying to illustrate my earlier point that there are some parallels to be drawn with religion and science. I think Mols superior knowledge and grasp of the english language allows him to make the point far more eloquently.
Science I guess is the formalisation of doubt. Purely in the sense that the more answers you get the more questions appear. Or to go back the the hitchhickers guide to the galaxy you can only know the answer to the ultimate question or the question to the ultimate answer at any one time. Ie 42 is the nswer but no one knows what too.
You can't cook up some particles in a big test tube and say 'Look - there's God!'.
Again - why not? 🙂
I was trying to illustrate my earlier point that there are some parallels to be drawn with religion and science
Absolutely. Closed minded supporters being one of them, apparently!
Again - why not?
Well, you can if you want.
Well, you can if you want.
Yep. Your values are yours, others have their own. It really is the to the whole debate.
Padre
Would you like a drink of… something? Tea, coffee… juice?Daglass
I’d love a glass of water…Padre
NO! That’s… mine.Daglass
Alright, don’t sweat it, I’ll suck a mint. I’ll come straight to the point. (Approaches the Padre) Where does the church stand on the matter of evolution?Padre
(Looking very shifty now… pauses) Monkeys were created by God to entertain us. That's all we know Rick.Daglass
But surely…Padre
THAT’S ALL WE KNOW RICK!Daglass
(Retreats now looking very suspicious) Yeah… Sure Padre. I think I understand. Come on Liz. (He takes her hand and leads her out the vestry)
Closed minded supporters being one of them
I've gone the other way in accepting the possible existence of any number of gods & hypergods up to infinity
Well, you can if you want.
Yep. Your values are yours, others have their own. It really is the to the whole debate.
And without some kind of definition as to what "god" means to either side then any debate is completely worthless.
"Do you believe in God?"
"Well no, as it happens I believe that.."
"But I have a God right here, look."
"That's a toothbrush"
"Yes, and I use His divine bristles to keep my teeth free from the sin of plaque"
"Right, well given your definition, then yes I do believe in "god" and the sactity of oral hygiene"
any debate is completely worthless
We have a winner!
Well, you can if you want.
Yep. Your values are yours, others have their own. It really is the to the whole debate.
As in 'you can if you want … but it would be meaningless'
As in 'you can if you want … but it would be meaningless'
life, the universe and everything are meaningless, but luckily it doesn't stop them being [b]fun[/b] :o)
Is everyone else seeing the Darwin 'ad' on the right?
😀
Is everyone else seeing the Darwin 'ad' on the right?
what can we buy ?
I'm seeing adverts for "The God That Wasn't There" DVD.
Presumably the pro-deity lobby are seeing adverts for a local Alpha Course or something?
Intelligent design in action? 😉
Selected content from a special issue of Nature on biodiversity. OK, so it's not Darwin as such, but his picture's on it. Get 'em while they're hot!
I prefer the JE James advert 🙂
So please someone tell me why this god (in his all knowing and infinite kindness)was looking the other way when Catholic priests were abusing children.....and what was he doing while Pope Benedict and his clerics were shredding the documents and sweeping the dirt under the carpet?
C'mon guys......he doesn't exist does he?
Have we talked ourselves back into our respective corners yet?
So please someone tell me why this god (in his all knowing and infinite kindness)was looking the other way when Catholic priests were abusing children..
?
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Of course if you believe in a loving God then there is also a destructive Devil but to quote a line from a well known film..
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist
So please someone tell me why this god (in his all knowing and infinite kindness)was looking the other way when Catholic priests were abusing children.....and what was he doing while Pope Benedict and his clerics were shredding the documents and sweeping the dirt under the carpet?
Why do you expect us to be able to explain God's actions?