They've got a point.
What I found particularly terrifying, though he was only pointing out what we already know, was the regional expert on Radio 4 this morning. I think he was a former ambassador in the region
He pointed out that you can not negotiate with these people, as they don't really have any demands short of everyone submitting completely to their warped world view. There is no compromise. No middle ground. That is their sole aim. And they see themselves purely as warriors on Gods mission, and actively seek martyrdom
When you take a moment to think about that, and what it legitimises in their eyes, its pretty ****ing scary
It's chilling. On the one hand, we hear ****stanis talking with great feeling and eloquence about what they want their country to become - how they see Malala Yousafzai as a heroine and are proud of her Nobel Peace award - and on the other we hear of the mindless, soulless barbarity of people hell-bent on seeing not just ****stan, but the whole world, revert to some version of the dark ages.
As you say, there is no more sense in reasoning with this mindset than trying to reason away a wasps nest or an infestation of ants.
They've got a point.What I found particularly terrifying, though he was only pointing out what we already know, was the regional expert on Radio 4 this morning. I think he was a former ambassador in the region
He pointed out that you can not negotiate with these people, as they don't really have any demands short of everyone submitting completely to their warped world view. There is no compromise. No middle ground. That is their sole aim. And they see themselves purely as warriors on Gods mission, and actively seek martyrdom
When you take a moment to think about that, and what it legitimises in their eyes, its pretty ****ing scary
They weren't AQ they were ****stan Taliban, effectively a much more extreme ETA. I should imagine if ****stan turned it into a semi-autonomous region like Muslim Mindanao in the Philippines....the problem would go away.
So yes, ****stan probably can negotiate with them if that's what people wanted , they seem to be fighting for independence from ****stan.
Also....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deobandi#Taliban
The movement developed as a reaction to [b]British colonialism[/b] in India, which was believed by a group of prominent Indian scholars — consisting of Rashid Ahmad Gangohi, Muhammad Yaqub Nanautawi, Shah Rafi al-Din, Sayyid Muhammad Abid, Zulfiqar Ali, Fadhl al-Rahman Usmani and Muhammad Qasim Nanotvi — to be corrupting the Islamic religion. They therefore founded an Islamic seminary known as Darul Uloom Deoband.[5] From here the Islamic revivalist and anti-imperialist ideology of the Deobandis began to develop
LOL once again, an example of how Britain has ****ed up the world on a far greater scale than Nazi Germany ever managed.
It's not even just about Islam itself, Pashtun culture would indicate these aren't people to be trifled with.
The Pathan tribes are always engaged in private or public war. Every man is a warrior, a politician and a theologian. Every large house is a real feudal fortress....Every family cultivates its vendetta; every clan, its feud.... Nothing is ever forgotten and very few debts are left unpaid.
Winston Churchill (My Early Life - Chapter 11: The Mahmund Valley)
Nyaw aw Badal (justice and revenge) - To seek justice or take revenge against the wrongdoer. No time limit restricts the period in which revenge can be taken. Justice in Pashtun lore needs elaborating: even a mere taunt (or "Peghor/?????") counts as an insult which usually can only be redressed by shedding the taunter's blood. If he is out of reach, his or her closest male relation must suffer the penalty instead. Badal may lead to blood feuds that can last generations and involve whole tribes with the loss of hundreds of lives. Normally blood feuds in this male-dominated society are settled in a number of ways.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali
And people wonder why they stormed a school if some of their own children have been killed?
an example of how Britain has **** up the world on a far greater scale than Nazi Germany ever managed
Beneath contempt. Time for a thread closure, methinks.
Beneath contempt. Time for a thread closure, methinks
How many serious ongoing problems in this world are a direct consequence of Germany's actions and how many are a consequence of ours?
The answer is
Germany - Zero
Britain - Dozens
Every time I read about some serious feud or sectarian conflict, the British empire manages to turn up in the story.
Heard that the Taliban hierarchy said "...they were only meant to kill teachers and older students, not children..." - well that's all-****ing-right then 😡
It scares the bejeezus out of me to think what kind of world mcobie junior is being born into 🙁
Read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali
then this
The recent interview on television of Islamic scholar Javed Ghamidi in which he attributed the Taliban’s beheading and stoning to death to tribal Pashtun culture has triggered a debate on social media. Ghamidi further said that even a child in the tribal belt could behead with ease. These indeed were very callous remarks from a supposedly good religious scholar.There is no denying the fact that the Pashtun belt in ****stan, and across the fence, has been a fertile ground for terrorism for more than three decades but the factors that contributed to terrorism were mostly foreign. Analysts blame the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in which the Afghans generally and the Pashtuns especially became sandwiched between the US and the Soviet Union. It is widely believed that the Pashtuns are on the wrong side of history, inhabiting a place of strategic importance that has witnessed onslaughts from all major forces in recent history.
We should not forget that the major players in the civil war after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan were mostly Pashtuns. Later, the Taliban, who were ethnically Pashtun, emerged on the scene and excelled their predecessors in wreaking havoc. Apart from their despicable attitude towards women, the destruction of two Buddha statues in Bamyan was an unforgivable act by the Taliban. However, the machinations and influence of the deep state cannot be condoned. The point here is not to single out the Pashtuns and declare the rest of ****stanis a very enlightened lot — they have their own lashkars (militias) of holy warriors — but we Pashtuns need introspection and need to seek answers to the question: why has our land become a breeding ground for terrorism? Is it geography, our love for militant Islam, our tribal culture or our trigger-happy temperament that brings us this ‘distinction’?I hear commentators who mostly attribute this problem to lack of education, poverty, post-9/11 developments and the military operations in Swat and the tribal areas. These factors might somehow have contributed but it is time to look at this from a different perspective as well. Non-local experts on terrorism generally ignore, or basically fail to understand, the important role Pashtun culture plays in promoting extremism. A Pashtun lives in a closed culture that is religiously conservative too. A male chauvinistic culture, which gives no freedom of expression or dissent, pushes youngsters to become reactionaries. When faced with real life challenges, the Pashtuns respond emotionally rather than rationally. Another damaging aspect of this culture is a social acceptance of bullies. Everyone, from teachers to the mullah and uncles to fathers, acts like a bully and instills a sense of fear, thereby creating an overwhelming sense of paranoia among Pashtun children.
A Pashtun can better understand what has led to the degeneration of his culture. This culture has now become ossified, as not only has it lost its good traits but also the capacity to be in synch with modernisation. Many factors have contributed to this cultural decadence like its inherent weakness and the onslaught of Wahabi militant and rigid Islam, which heavily invested in the Pashtun belt for more than three decades. However, the most damaging blow was given by the Tabligh-e-Jamaat (TeJ), which excelled even Wahabism in bringing about cultural closeness, pushing young Pashtuns away from cultural activities and killing their desire to become active members of society. The TeJ discourages cultural gatherings, fairs and festivals and considers music and dances, the cultural manifestations of the area, to be evil acts. It even demonised laughter — a sign of life — and said that a hearty laugh extinguishes a celestial light in the human heart.
The role of the media, especially the Urdu media, has been very negative in its stereotyping: its demonisation and generalisation of the Pashtuns has put them at a loss for their identity. The perception that Mr Ghamidi has is that the Pashtuns are generally savages, backward, and cannot assimilate in the mainstream culture — this perception is pushing middle-class, educated Pashtuns into the hands of the militants. The media does not paint with the same brush when it comes to militants in Punjab.
Political activity has been an effective instrument in engaging people. The initiative to allow political parties to operate freely for the first time in FATA is a belated but right step and will help lessen the grip of militancy in the region. Critics argue that the lack of reforms has alienated tribesmen and made it easier for militant networks to recruit young men to fight the ****stani government and to avenge a covert US drone war. However, it is wrong to assume that people are drifting into terrorism just because their family members are being killed in drone attacks.
Geography has a role in making the Pashtun belt fertile for religious-based militancy. With armed tribes in the Pak-Afghan rugged mountains, weak government control, the three decades long war theatre, smuggling, the drugs-based economy and the non-existent political culture, militancy has fomented on both sides of our porous western border. Physical geography cannot be changed but mindsets can be. As Maria Robinson puts it, “Nobody can go back and start a new beginning but anyone can start today and make a new ending.”
It is time we start today for a new era of peace and prosperity. The next step after implementing the Political Parties Act should aim at giving provincial status to FATA and doing away with the garrison and strategic depth mentality. This mindless hunt for strategic depth in FATA and Afghanistan has irreparably weakened the country. Pashtuns need to be integrated into the mainstream to play a role in the progress and development of this country instead of seeing them as savages like Ghamidi did. Bombs and bullets cannot defeat terrorism. We have seen that deterrence can be effective on a short term basis; it is the long term process of development and dialogue that needs to be initiated to make the Pashtun land infertile for extremism and fertile for openness and tolerance.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/opinion/25-Feb-2014/terrorism-and-the-pashtun-belt
A pretty ****ed up part of the world isn't it, that breeds very, very hard individuals.
It scares the bejeezus out of me to think what kind of world mcobie junior is being born into
The safest, healthiest and most secure world humanity has ever known?
It scares the bejeezus out of me to think what kind of world mcobie junior is being born into
the ability to be able to visualise your own child in that situation is a pretty horrible one but the truth is that kids now are being born into a world that suffers similar level of brutality and barbarism as there's ever been. We just probably are more aware of what it's like now than we would have been when at a time when our parents were growing up.
Every time I read about some serious feud or sectarian conflict, the British empire manages to turn up in the story.
Tom does have a good point all told, from colonial genocide all over the world, to slavery, to continued initiation of conflict through covert means, the footprint of Britain leaves a dark legacy which is generally buried through sugar coated propaganda.
The vast majority of people are good, but a proportion of all our taxes goes toward perpetuating the arms trade, war and oppression which fuels horrific incidents such as this latest massacre.
In no way do I condone what the ****stan Taliban did but for years the US have used continual Drone strikes with the colatral damage that comes with it. The US should review its policy on drone strikes in light of ****stani families now suffering, in part due to US policy.
In addition why did it take 8hours to subdue 7 men who were actively shooting children from the start with an Army barracks so close by?
Now the ****stani army has to deal with the Taliban ASAP and bring swift justice. What a horrible situation and the perpitrators are not Muslims. It was a disgusting attack.
The Bureau of Investigative Journalism (TBIJ), an independent journalist organization. TBIJ reports that from June 2004 through mid-September 2012, available data indicate that drone strikes killed 2,562-3,325 people in ****stan, of whom 474-881 were civilians, including 176 children.[3] TBIJ reports that these strikes also injured an additional 1,228-1,362 individuals.
In addition why did it take 8hours to subdue 7 men who were actively shooting children from the start with an Army barracks so close by?
Generally, soldiers don't like getting killed. So I should imagine clearing out 7 nutters from a school room by room would be a fairly lengthy process.
Tom does have a good point all told, from colonial genocide all over the world, to slavery, to continued initiation of conflict through covert means, the footprint of Britain leaves a dark legacy which is generally buried through sugar coated propaganda.
Odd how so few of those concerned share this view?
Two teachers lost their lives through be burned to death on different sides of the world yesterday - terrible stories both, but this destroys the overly simplistic causation links to things like religion (ok I know that is a STW thing, but....)
Tom (and semi-OT) if there was a Kenyan mall etc event and the British Army was present due to training they'd go in. The British armed Police would have different protocols? All down to training. I imagine the ****stani army ground Commanders would wait/not sure rather than be dynamic?
Odd how so few of those concerned share this view?
They won't be any the wiser thanks to
initiation of conflict through covert means
Of course, placing all the burden on Britain these days is overly simplistic (although many of the most powerful bankers and nobility who have been benefiting from this kind of enterprise since the days of slavery and privateers are still based here) but the same general principles of stir tensions, provide weapons and demonize the enemy to divide and conquer were exported to the colonies and evolved into the situations which have been brewing throughout our lifetimes.
Tom (and semi-OT) if there was a Kenyan mall etc event and the British Army was present due to training they'd go in. The British armed Police would have different protocols? All down to training. I imagine the ****stani army ground Commanders would wait/not sure rather than be dynamic?
No they wouldn't, it would be left to the Kenyans. Killing 7 heavily armed war hardened loons who want to die and know the army is coming, who are armed with machine guns, grenades and bombs, holding a building with hundreds of rooms that was designed to be secure is an entirely different kettle of fish to assaulting a cafe with an idiot carrying a shotgun, or even the bunch of idiots that held up the Iranian embassy.
That school was full of the local officers children, so I think it's a little ridiculous to insinuate that they didn't want to to their jobs properly.
No one can hold that school/buildings with 7 people if a properly trained force attacked. Its disorganisation, training and plain fear that will have held their Army back.
It was a compound and there were still kids held up inside meaning that they would have had to check their fire. You have to deal with fleeing wounded children, booby traps, withering machine gun fire, grenades, maybe RPGs and you have to make sure you don't shoot the wrong people. Once you've managed to enter a large building like that, it then takes hours to methodically clear each room and declare the place safe.
Even the Russians, who are hardened and have well trained special forces had issues coping with this. We'd fare little better if this happened on our own soil. In fact, it's arrogant to think we would.
If this ever happened in London, hundreds would be dead before even a couple of met officers turned up with carbines and sod all ammo.
I was going to keep out of this....
Aside from the usual condemnations, explanations, expression of horror etc. What I find interesting is the ability of otherwise rational peaceful people to completely put aside their morals and beliefs and accept a militaristic justification of killing innocents. I'm not talking about the taliban, they're obviously nut-jobs created either by religious/ideological zeal and/or decades of violence, I'm talking about us. We have in the west an unparalleled ability to compartmentalise and justify violence on a scale that the taliban can only dream of, on the basis that an elected government and a professional and highly trained military tell us that it's ok because somehow it's for the greater good and/or for our own protection. The end result is the same as anything the taliban or their nutter friends in ISIS get up to, indeed often it's many time worse. Yet we willingly accept it, and then un-ironically watch in horror when these things appear on our tv screens. It's very strange and baffling, and I don't think I'll ever get my head around it.
