Regardless of the argument and bumpf around the rationale;
84 children. 84. Just little kids, like ours, going to school.
****ing hell.
A terrible act but it seems a mistake to blame Drone Strikes
This about a group fighting for territory and spreading its way of doing things. The West isn't the target here is it. Its the moderate majority in that country
Nahhh, attacking a school full of kids is personal. Those that carried out the attack had an axe to grind as opposed to objectives to achieve. Perhaps both.
one mans freedom fighter...
...is another man's arsehole?
ahh the good old religion of peace is at it again i see...bless em
Sorry but that's a bullshit point of view, formed from your cosy safe brick house, in your peaceful street, surrounded by luxury and with the biggest danger in your life perhaps your daily commute..
Nope its not a bullshit point of view at all, its my opinion based on knowing what is right and wrong. Believe it or not, I'm not an idiot and can well see why some of what we call 'terrorism' can be justified by many people.
I have a close friend brought up in ****stan and likewise one from Gaza. Both are disgusted by this and share a very similar viewpoint on it to myself.
Likewise, What are the rest of ****stan saying about it I wonder? Is anyone out there trying to justify it, or are they sickened by it as much as me?
Bear in mind we're not talking about bombing an army base, firing rockets into israel, or even planting a bomb to kill civilians. This is the deliberate target and murder of children. There are plenty of 'terrorists' in the world, but I can think of very few that have stooped to doing this. Yet you are trying to justify it?
So whilst you can dismiss my viewpoint as much as you like, given (I assume) you also grew up in a comfy brick house listening to radio 4, your opinion is no more valid than mine...
Bear in mind we're not talking about bombing an army base, firing rockets into israel, or even planting a bomb to kill civilians. This is the deliberate target and murder of children. There are plenty of 'terrorists' in the world, but I can think of [b]very few[/b] that have stooped to doing this. Yet you are trying to justify it?
Someone I know gunned down a group of kids from a chopper after someone fired at them from within the group.
"It is the tragedian's task, then, to force us to confront an almost unbearable truth: every folly or myopia of which any human being in history has been guilty may be traced back to some aspect of our collective nature. Because we each bear within ourselves the whole of the human condition, in its worst and best aspects, any one of us might be capable of doing anything at all, or nothing, under the right—or rather the most horribly wrong—conditions" - Alain de Botton
😆slowoldman - Member...is another man's arsehole?
deliberate target and murder of children. There are plenty of 'terrorists' in the world, but I can think of very few that have stooped to doing this
the USA in Hiroshima and Nagasaki for example.
Or the RAF at Dresden. Desperate people will do appalling things why is this more shocking than anything else. The point for me isn't that this has occurred it's why it's being reported in the way that it is.
Yeah but when we deliberately target kids it's 'I-can't-believe-it's-not-terrorism' because we do it for democracy and it's swept under the carpet, when they do it it's called terrorism because they are dirty theists who do it so they can carry on humping goats.
We obviously do it for far more noble reasons, the Taliban do it with more panache and honesty though, I'll give them that.
There are plenty of 'terrorists' in the world, but I can think of very few that have stooped to doing this
Just from the past couple of decades I can think of half a dozen groups that have killed and abducted children for political reasons. Boko Haram, The LRA, The Chechen sepratists, the Hutusin Rwanda, The Taliban previously, The PDF. It's unpleasant but it's hardly unprecedented or even especially rare.
based on knowing what is right and wrong
which is something you learned from your cosy viewpoint..
As I said in my post I'm not trying to justify it, just find it a bit odd that we think we can pass judgement based on values that we developed from our life experience..
The life experience of the people that carried out the act is not something that we can comprehend..
But if you can't grasp that simple concept then I shouldn't really expect you to bother reading my post properly, or interpreting it in any way other than is most comfortable for you..
Anyway.. I'm orf to the pub fellas
ciao 🙂
This is doubtless a horrific and barbaric attack, but as many have said in the thread already, it is part of a bigger picture; from drone strikes, to the CIA funding and training the Taliban in the 1st place:
The real evil comes in the form of the western intelligence services and the military industrial media complex.
Stir tensions, provide weapons, demonize
Same cycle been played out again and again, but as global media has progressed, so has the depth of manipulation.
The same people have been profiting throughout, be it from arms sales, private military firms or indeed selling newspapers.
Carlyle Group, Halliburton, Blackwater, ArmourGroup, NewsCorp etc etc are all complicit in the scenarios which lead to such tragedy and perpetuate hatred and war.
Behind the mask of these faceless corporations, all too often you'll find the same politicians who make the case for war.
As for this demonstrating how particularly vile these killers are to attack children and teachers in a school, and they must be that way because of religious indoctrination, I give you:
A Norwegian on an island where a summer camp was being held.
A guy in the north of England.
Many, many white, christian Americans who've shot their way through schools.
The difference in ****stan is that there is a possible explanation.
Could add to that mix the Dunblane Shootings, which by many accounts were related to a paedophile ring involving VIPs at the Queen Victoria School, a Military Boarding School under the patronage of Prince Philip.
Odd that some documents surrounding the incident are so restricted they have a 100 year ban.
I did read your post
As I said in my post I'm not trying to justify it
well actually you said this....
I dunno if I'm trying to justify what happened, but I am a bit sickened that we can sit here in our safe little cotton wool wrapped lives passing judgement on people who have endured decades no, centuries of violent military persecution
I understand exactly what you meant in your first post, I simply didn't agree that any right minded individual would see that as justification to carry out this act, regardless of background. Many in ****stam have suffered just as badly, yet there is near unanimous condemnation of this act.
Can you not accept this point of view and rational without resorting to trying to insult me?
As for being'sickened' that someone like myself in my cosy house could possibly see fit to pass judgement on people that have killed 108 innocent schoolkids. I think you're going to be in the very small minority on that one i'm afraid.
enjoy your pint!
Just driving home from nursery with my 4 year old had radio 4 on (cuz i is dead posh init) I wasnt really listening until anagallis junior said, "why did the children get killed" couldnt really explain why.
Well there will be unanimous condemnation from government sources, anyone who doesn't want to get arrested or simply disposed of, the press if they want to go on printing, the media if they want to go on broadcasting. I reckon that even the villagers who've lost loved one to drones would condemn the acts rather than have the next drone head their way.
It's unrealistic to expect anyone to show any understanding at all in public in ****stan. If you find analysis and an ability to understand all is not black and white anywhere it will be on a bike forum in a country where you don't get shot for stating the blindingly obvious.
Edit: I won't be enjoying a pint because 1/ I don't drink (well rarely before anyone suspects I'm a ... .) 2/ like Woppit I've found the events sickening.
The difference in ****stan is that there is a possible explanation.
Indeed, but it might not be one that you think. Maybe it's a bunch of sickos who get off on horrendous violence? What is often lost in all the arguing about religion, ideology, history and the like is the question of how the vast majority of the same people who have had the same influences don't butcher kids in cold blood.
Indeed, but it might not be one that you think. Maybe it's a bunch of sickos who get off on horrendous violence? What is often lost in all the arguing about religion, ideology, history and the like is the question of how the vast majority of the same people who have had the same influences don't butcher kids in cold blood.
That doesn't mean they don't support it though.
Support for terrorism is pretty high in both Afghanistan and parts of ****stan, maybe deliberately targeting a school is going a bit to far for those supporters but kids get blown up in non targeted attacks as well....and they are okay with that.
Hopefully potential radicals will see this and think twice about signing up.
You cannot be so naive to completely disconnect religion from terrorism. Not in Islamic fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism or any other religious fuelled fundamentalism. Religion is the mechanism by which people justify good deeds as well as bad, it's intertwined and you cannot pick and choose where it's influence applies or it doesn't. You cannot ignore the religious element in dealing with the root cause of acts like these and it has to be dealt with. As far as this latest atrocity goes, these people didn't have an issue with drone strikes or Blair, they've come out and said its in retaliation to ****stani military operations in the region, so ****stanis defending their own country from these Taliban thugs. You cannot even begin to try to justify or appease these actions to make a cheap political point about your own views on Blair or drone strikes. Shame on you for doing so. Actions like these can only be unconditionally condemned by any decent person. There is no more deplorable act that people can do to others. I'm deliberately not using the te Human as these people ceased to be human the moment they conceived of this act.
Drones are very much a part of the ****stani governments offensive in the region. An integral part of the attacks which they claim cost less civilian lives per militant killed than ground attacks. The drones are either ****stani or American operating on information (I would say on orders)of the ****stani government.
Poor kids. 🙁
Not the "evil" word again.
Horrific atrocities committed daily, in perpetuity, by human people.
South Sudan, currently, Syria, currently, Mexico, currently.
Perhaps I have "evil fatigue". In truth, I've found ruminations on the worst in "humanity" has led me nowhere but down a misanthropic, miserable road.
I'll worry about assisting midwives working at refugee camps: Saving as many lives together as were lost in the ****stan massacre. If there's evil, I'm ****ing focusing on the hope.
What is often lost in all the arguing about religion, ideology, history and the like is the question of how the vast majority of the same people who have had the same influences don't butcher kids in cold blood.
Excellent point and too easily forgotten. The people doing this are the minority, even among the Taliban.
The smaller the coffin, the heavier it is to carry
What a poignant turn of phrase from the ****stani Defence Minister.
I won't be enjoying a pint because 1/ I don't drink (well rarely before anyone suspects I'm a ... .) 2/ like Woppit I've found the events sickening.
That was aimed at yunki! And for no other reason than he said he was going for a beer and(after our disagreement) I was trying to be pleasant 🙂
Just popping in to paste this from Reddit's ELI5 (Explain Like I'm 5) sub:
ELI5: The Taliban just killed 130 people in a school, mostly children. Why is that somehow part of a rational strategy for them? How do they justify that to themselves?
The larger context right now is being ignored. Since June the ****stani military has been conducting a military offensive in the Northwest Frontier Provinces. This area often called the FATA district is home to various ****stani Taliban groups and tribal groups ( like the Mehsuds and Wazirs) with shifting allegiances. The ****stani Taliban is influenced by A) Deobandi Islamism which is a Southeast Asian variation of radical Islam: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deobandi [1] B) and its dominant influence is the Pashtun tribal ethos of Pashtunwali: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali [2]These two influences have shaped Taliban religious and political ideology. Now, 80 % of the Taliban are Pashtuns, while ****stan is divided into various ethnic and regional groups ( like Sindhs, Punjabis)..The Pashtuns are also in Afghanistan as the Durrand Line ( the border between ****stan/Afghanistan) cuts between their ethnic " homeland". They don't identify with the state of ****stan. Now, since the operation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Zarb-e-Azb [3] was launched since the breakdown of the ceasefire with the Taliban and PM Nawaz Sharif's gov't and the Jinnah int'l airport attack in June, The Taliban consider the use of attacks on children and schools as a means of exacting revenge which is a major important thing in Pashtun culture. They see the deaths of their tribesmen as something that justifies these barbaric attacks. They have been scattered now into various cities in ****stan as well, which makes it more dangerous. The ****stani Taliban are at war with the government in Islamabad. I would also like to add that the Taliban attacked an ARMY school, which means these kids were children of soldiers who were fighting in the NWFP. The tribes the Taliban protect there lost many children to the ****stani military. This is cold blooded revenge for the Taliban at the same time sending a message to the ****stani military to stay out of " their" territory.
Edit: I am also going to add a Wiki link to the areas where the Pashtun people predominate. If you notice its in the area of the border region:
[4]
Edit 2: Wow.Thanks for the gold! I am only doing my duty as someone with a History degree. If you want some good sources I suggest two readings:
http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300178845 [5]
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/may/01/****stan-hard-country-anatol-lieven-review [6]Edit 3: I wanted to clarify that my statements are not demeaning to Pashtun culture or to Pashtun people. I hope you don't take offense. Most Pashtun are not Taliban. My point being was that most Taliban are Pashtun. I want to explain the socioeconomic and historical circumstances of a great people within the context of why the Taliban continue to exert influence.
- [url= http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2pgzlb/eli5_the_taliban_just_killed_130_people_in_a/cmwlyjl ]Sauce.[/url]
You cannot be so naive to completely disconnect religion from terrorism. Not in Islamic fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism or any other religious fuelled fundamentalism. Religion is the mechanism by which people justify good deeds as well as bad, it's intertwined and you cannot pick and choose where it's influence applies or it doesn't. You cannot ignore the religious element in dealing with the root cause of acts like these and it has to be dealt with. As far as this latest atrocity goes, these people didn't have an issue with drone strikes or Blair, they've come out and said its in retaliation to ****stani military operations in the region, so ****stanis defending their own country from these Taliban thugs. You cannot even begin to try to justify or appease these actions to make a cheap political point about your own views on Blair or drone strikes. Shame on you for doing so. Actions like these can only be unconditionally condemned by any decent person. There is no more deplorable act that people can do to others. I'm deliberately not using the te Human as these people ceased to be human the moment they conceived of this act.
Yeah, you've fallen into the same trap as the people who label Hitler as a monster. It makes themselves feel better about the human condition, when in reality we all have the potential to do evil things given the right circumstances and lack of self awareness.
Could add to that mix the Dunblane Shootings, which by many accounts were related to a paedophile ring involving VIPs at the Queen Victoria School, a Military Boarding School under the patronage of Prince Philip.Odd that some documents surrounding the incident are so restricted they have a 100 year ban.
As a former pupil of said school during those events I'd like to extend a massive **** YOU ****! Take your ****ing warped lies elsewhere and tell them to some other mug that won't know any different.
2014
2 November Taliban suicide bomber kills 60 people in an attack on a paramilitary checkpoint close to the Wagah border crossing with India.
8 June A suicide bomber in the country’s south-west killed at least 23 Shia pilgrims returning from Iran.
2013
22 September Twin suicide bomb blasts in a Peshawar church kill at least 85 people.
3 March Explosion in Karachi kills 45 Shia outside a mosque.
10 January Bombing in Shia area of Quetta kills 81 people.
2012
22 November A Taliban suicide bomber struck a Shia procession in the city of Rawalpindi, killing 23.
5 January Taliban fighters kill 15 ****stani frontier police after holding them hostage for more than a year.
2011
20 September Militants kill at least 26 Shia on a bus near Quetta.
13 May A pair of Taliban suicide bombers attack paramilitary police recruits in Shabqadar, killing 80, in retaliation for Osama bin Laden’s killing.
2010
5 November A suicide bomber strikes a Sunni mosque in Darra Adam Khel, killing at least 67 during Friday prayers.
1 September A triple Taliban suicide attack on a Shia procession kills 65 in Quetta.
9 July Two suicide bombers kill 102 people in the Mohmand tribal region.
2 July Suicide bombers attack ****stan’s most revered Sufi shrine in Lahore, killing 47 people.
29 May Two militant squads armed with hand grenades, suicide vests and assault rifles attack two mosques of the Ahmadi minority sect in Lahore, killing 97.
1 January A suicide bomber drives a truckload of explosives into a volleyball field in Lakki Marwat district, killing at least 97 people.
2009
28 December Bomb blast kills at least 44 at a Shia procession in Karachi.
9 October A suicide car bomber hits a busy market area in Peshawar, killing 53.
2008
20 September A suicide bomber devastates the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad with a truck full of explosives, killing at least 54.
2007
27 December Former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto and 20 other people are killed in a suicide bombing and shooting attack in Rawalpindi.
I understand people's impulse to widen the subject into an argument about the wider picture of international violence and so on, but I want to re-establish focus on my central point of the appalling act contained within an already horrific attack.
They killed a teacher by pouring gasoline over him and then setting him alight. In front of the children. Forcing them to watch it. Before (presumably), shooting the children.
Think about that for a second.
The ****stani government have just re-introduced the death penalty
That should sort it!
You cannot even begin to try to justify or appease these actions to make a cheap political point about your own views on Blair or drone strikes. Shame on you for doing so. Actions like these can only be unconditionally condemned by any decent person. There is no more deplorable act that people can do to others.
It's not justification or appeasement to point out the double standard here. Did any of you give that much of a shit when CIA drone strikes killed hundreds of ****stani kids? No - because we're the good guys and when we kill kids it's all fine.
Remember the outrage about this?
Religious school attacked
It is one of the worst incidents of the entire drones campaign, yet one of the least reported. A CIA strike on a
madrassa or religious school
in 2006 killed up to 69 children, among 80 civilians.
The attack was on a religious seminary in Chenegai, in Bajaur Agency.CIA drones attacked on October 30, flattening much of the school. Their target was reportedly the headmaster, a known militant. According to some reports, there was also a token late contribution to the assault by ****stani military helicopters. But dozens of children were also killed, the youngest aged seven.
http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2011/08/11/more-than-160-children-killed-in-us-strikes/
Me neither.
They attack schools because education is the enemy of the putrid medieval religion behind these attrocities.
eurrrgghhh.. massive hangover and already 20 mins late for my youngest's nursery school Chrimbo party..
I will make a great effort not to slay any kids when I get there
Could add to that mix the Dunblane Shootings, which by many accounts were related to a paedophile ring involving VIPs at the Queen Victoria School, a Military Boarding School under the patronage of Prince Philip.Odd that some documents surrounding the incident are so restricted they have a 100 year ban.
As a former pupil of said school during those events I'd like to extend a massive * YOU *! Take your **** warped lies elsewhere and tell them to some other mug that won't know any different.
Appreciate your passion, must've been horrific.
I haven't lied; many accounts do indeed allude to what I've stated. I wasn't there, but Thomas Hamilton evidently had links to the 'Friends of QVS'.
If there was even the tiniest chance that the allegations were true, wouldn't you want to pursue justice?
What do you think was horrific?
Certainly none of what you said has any truth behind it and if by "all accounts" you mean a single testimony by an ex-member of staff who also had no evidence or even full confidence to back up his allegations then rock on.
Thomas Hamilton, though having entered school grounds, had absolutely no contact with any pupils there. Plenty of groups use the school facilities when the pupils are on holiday so it's not inconcievable that he and his scout group would have done the same. As for the "Friends of QVS" I don't remember the existence of any group of that name. VIP's and such (school commissioners and guests) would hold functions on the school grounds but certainly none that would facilitate the sorts of activities you're suggesting.
The issue over access to dormitories has been twisted to suit the author. In actual fact it was more to do with the fact that former pupils were coming up for the reunion weekend and treating the place as a bunk house rather than anything sinister.
To be quite clear and to the point - you're talking out of your arse and don't have the first idea about anything you're talking about. Of course if there WAS a case to answer I would want to see it answered but what these allegations are doing is putting two and two together and coming up with nine. It's a tiny school with ~250 pupils, it would be nigh on impossible to do the things suggested without SOMEONE noticing and broadcasting it to all and sundry within hours. Of course you, and presumably the authors of these accusations, don't know things like that and can just peddle baseless accusations with impunity since the chances of anyone in the know happening upon them are fairly remote.
My bad, I misunderstood, I thought you meant you were in the primary school when the shootings occurred.
You seem to disregard that there are several accounts that Thomas Hamilton was a danger to children from as early as 1981, and six police investigations but somehow he was left untouched by the procurator fiscal and still allowed a firearms license:
https://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=61692
Whether or not there was misconduct at QVS is debatable, but given what certainly appears to be standard practice nationwide of covering up such affairs, it would be foolish to disregard the possibility:
http://exaronews.com/articles/5429/protected-paedophile-mps-and-prominent-people-say-police
Sorry if that offends you because you went to school there, it could be nothing, but given the overall trend, it warrants investigation.
Christ... Using the deaths of 140 people in ****stan as a pretext to peddle your usual line of paedogeddon conspiracy bollocks is pretty spectacularly shitty.
Cool, let's get back on topic then shall we;
This is doubtless a horrific and barbaric attack, but as many have said in the thread already, it is part of a bigger picture; from drone strikes, to the CIA funding and training the Taliban in the 1st place:The real evil comes in the form of the western intelligence services and the military industrial media complex.
Stir tensions, provide weapons, demonize
Same cycle been played out again and again, but as global media has progressed, so has the depth of manipulation.
The same people have been profiting throughout, be it from arms sales, private military firms or indeed selling newspapers.
Carlyle Group, Halliburton, Blackwater, ArmourGroup, NewsCorp etc etc are all complicit in the scenarios which lead to such tragedy and perpetuate hatred and war.
Behind the mask of these faceless corporations, all too often you'll find the same politicians who make the case for war.
Telegraph have decided to discuss this in a pretty head-on manner:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/****stan/11297608/After-the-****stan-school-attack-we-need-to-talk-about-Islam.html
