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Jamba - this is what PM Theresa May agreed to before Christmas getting written up. That’s all.
Now was I surprised at the time that she had agreed to it - yes, very.
Bit silly to complain now though. The decision has been made back in 2017.
It's funny how the irish fudge was hailed by some as such a great step forward when just a couple of months later it's turned out it was a bucket of shit instead. All the sane observers had managed to work that out immediately. Where is THM to explain how all the grown-ups are sorting it out behind the scenes?
Its not really shite - its just what was agreed at the time is not what May told the leavers or they didn't want to understand.
In the absence of other solutions NI has to stay in the CU effectively. Now May and co have not come up with other solutions so this is the only option left.
If thats what the 'Brains for Brexit' have come up with then the whole thing is doomed!
The idiot Brexiteers dismissed this as 'project fear' before the vote
Now they have to come up with a solution............
nothing, no plan, no detail, just wailing
May signed up to this in a desperate attempt to stave off a leadership challenge B4 Xmas, we remoaned that 'full alignment' for NI was a foolish thing to sign up to but Brexit has always been about putting the Tory party above the needs of the country.
May once agan playing a blinder
It saddens me. The self harm is one thing… the damage we intend to inflict on those South of the border in Ireland is another. A reminder that Brexit is about nationalism in the end, and raising two fingers to other nations with which we should be seeking to maintain cooperation and improve our relationships with.
The self harm is one thing… the damage we intend to inflict on those South of the border in Ireland is another.
I'm more concerned about a return of the IRA to blowing stuff up on the mainland to be honest.
[i]jambalaya wrote:[/i]
Spot on from “Brains for Brexit”
Two oxymorons on one sentence, well done!
I have better things to do with my time than read any more clearly biased articles misrepresenting the issue as all the previous ones you're posted from Brexit think tanks have been. If you want to be taken seriously try finding some articles from different less biased sources to back up your claims. If you can't find any such articles that ought to tell you something...
Maybe he means Brians for Brexit?
The link I posted is written by someone who used to be moderately europhobic but has come to see the madness that is Brexit
A good speech from John Major in simple short sentences anyone can understand. The first thing I've seen since the referendum that could be a turning point. Fingers crossed.
So Mogg tweeted an apology for lying about Corbs on C4 news
wonder if he'll apologise for retweeting the Suns lies?
http://ticktockmaths.co.uk/maths-in-the-real-world-the-suns-brexit-percentages/
Also I smell another legal challenge?
The idiot Brexiteers dismissed this as ‘project fear’ before the vote
Now they have to come up with a solution…………
They have. Use technology, but don't expect any details, just like all of brexit, it's thin vannieer as soon as you ask for details you get told it will work it's self out. This time the parrot is squaking "technology, technology".
The EU commissioned its own study on electronic borders for Ireland / Northern Ireland. Published in December Mr Tusk, Junker, Barnier et al seem to be doing their best to turn a blind eye to it. Naked politicking.
The EU says itself that an electronic border is absolutely possible and more than that that Ireland / Northern Ireland border could be a role model for the whole of the EU 🙂 🙂 🙂
https://briefingsforbrexit.com/the-eu-withdrawal-agreement-an-attempt-to-annex-northern-ireland/
http://brexitcentral.com/theresa-may-needs-say-friday/
^^^ “new” forum formatting still awful I see
Edukator John Major signed the Masstricht Treaty and forced eurosceptic MPs to vote for it (Labour voted against). Odd he should now be suggesting a free vote don’t you think ? Major was kicked out as PM by his own party over Europe and the electorate then gave the Tories 10 years in opposition. He is by very definition yesterdays man. In his favour he is more popular than Tony Blair who is also trying to overturn the Referendum which of course rejected his signature of the Lisbon Treaty. Polticians their giant sized egos
@TheBrick why don’t you read the EU’s own report or at least the Briefings for Brexit report by the Cambridge Uni business schoool academic.
Nice one Jammers. Thanks for that. When I look for calm, considered reflective opinion on Brexit I find myself, almost by default, turning to Ian Duncan Smith
But you're right. You and Boris. The situation with the Irish border is just like administering the congestion charge
I just skimmed the executive summary of that and as far as I can tell it suggested that people who are not allowed free movement would present themselves to one of the manned border posts for processing. Right. Sure they will.
Unicorns, again.
But the rest of it is ''technology' anpr, more detailed driving licenses, more watching. Great, I guess people who voted for Brexit think moving closer to 1984 is a price worth paying.
And obviously with our govts (of whatever stripe) stellar record of implementation of technology based projects, and their cohesive vision for the final outcome, it'll be wonderful. For ****s sakes.
I just cannot see folks who cross the border accepting having numberplates either screwed or glued - back OR front - its just inhuman.
I think there is some cool South African company that developed a sort of RFID tag , just like the vets actually - perhaps there is an investment opportunity there ?
Edit> found a GB company - https://www.bioteq.co.uk/
quite a range - even anaesthetics for pain free implant .
It would solve a bunch of issues
Did you read the europarl link before you sent it Jamba? It seems not to provide for much of an electronic border for NI citizens.
Sounds a bit like the ESTA or ETA programme. That said the returning ESTAs lane at some US airports is a lovely experience. Still a hard border though.
or at least the Briefings for Brexit report by the Cambridge Uni business schoool academic.
Keep going with the appeals to authority. That was the one several people responded to and you ignored. If you arent going to bother defending whatever you lob up why should people bother reading it?
TJ that agrememt says “nothing is agreed till everything is agreed”. The EU itself keeps reminding us of that. The “regulatory alignment” text is meaningless. We had it put in as we know it has no legal bearing. Its just like the money, if there isn’t a proper agreement inc free trade the whole doument falls away with the one explicitly noted exception of eu citizens rights (although we haven’t legislated that). A proper free trade agreement solves the Irish border issue for the EU. One doesn’t exist for us as we will never out up border posts but the Irish may be forced to by the EU
DrJ its the environmental campaigners amd anti-American lefties who keep focusi g on “Chlorine” wasning as a big negative in itself. I am simply pointing out their argument is nonsense. The EU will approve it in time, as I said we already wash pre-prepared salad that way. The EU hasn’t a leg to stand on re animal welfare as it willfully turns a blind eye to abuses in Pork prodiction (same exists with foie gras btw, produced against EU law in Eastern Europe)
@dissonance just read the EU’s own report - I provided the link. First smart border US/Canada and another between Sweden and orway (whuch is why I imagine the EU asked head of Sweden’s customs service to wrote it)
The whole Irish border issue is an attempt by the EU to restrkct the UK’s ability to do global free trade deals as every single one will mean less business for the EU
I provided the link
Why are we required to read whatever rubbish you throw up when you then just ignore any responses?
As it happens I did look at it and the thing which stood out was its lack of timelines, costs and also how it skipped over the fact those borders are still rather obviously borders. They just have some measures to speed up some traffic.
Oh and Norway has had to commit to follow EU rules in order to get it. Which brings us on nicely to.
The whole Irish border issue is an attempt by the EU to restrkct the UK’s ability to do global free trade deals as every single one will mean less business for the EU
Couldnt you manage to get your arguments consistent within one post?
You don't seem to get the border situation as was was pointed out yesterday,
“Some in the UK argue that the UK can leave the border open after Brexit, charging no tariffs and making no inspections, and dare the European Union to be the first to put up customs posts. Would this actually work?
No. If it did not charge tariffs on imports from the EU, a post-Brexit UK would break the rules of the World Trade Organization, which operates on a “most-favoured nation” (MFN) principle of equal treatment.”
Jamba - yes nothing is agreed until everything is agreed and May agreed the wording and agreed to its provisions. - which means if the tories don't come up with a viable border solution its full alignment for NI or no deal - ie crash out with no transitional arrangements at all. Hardest of hard brexits with no transition, no deal on anything, no finacial services allowed to operate in Europe from london, no flights from UK using EU airspace, no travel to EU without visias, no cross border flow of goods, all UK citizens in the EU lose their healthcare rights etc etc
Now that is a disaster scenario.
Is that the same Cambridge academic who's the magic 8 ball retained by that bastion of right wing head-bangers that it the Policy Exchange
The whole Irish border issue is an attempt by the EU to restrkct the UK’s ability to do global free trade deals as every single one will mean less business for the EU
But I thought the whole point of Brexit was that our economy will thrive because we'll continue to trade just as much with the EU as we do now (despite not being in it), and also massively grow our trade with other places through all these wonderful new trade deals we'll have? No? Otherwise, surely our economy will at best, remain static. No?
And if you really want to understand the Irish Border issue in the context of the GF Agreement you can listen to the Blair interview on the R4 Today program this morning. Little to do with trade and more to do with respecting nationalist aspirations in NI.
So, the EU is bad because it's protectionist, but the UK will still trade just as much with the EU when it's out.
That doesn't seem to add up...
That doesn’t seem to add up…
should write that on a bus
The whole Irish border issue is an attempt by the EU to restrkct the UK’s ability to do global free trade deals as every single one will mean less business for the EU
Aye they are shitting it at the thought of those lining up to do a deal with the wee island [ could you provide a list btw] that will threaten the very fabric of the EU. I know you think everything post leave will be awesome but at some point you need to ground your views in reality rather than meaningless aspiration.
this is worse though
A proper free trade agreement solves the Irish border issue for the EU. One doesn’t exist for us as we will never out up border posts but the Irish may be forced to by the EU
Free trade is not an option as we cannot cherry pick - though of course the eu allowing us free access without payment or adherence is a solution it also is totally unrealistic. However it is good to know that post leaving the EU we have no intention of monitoring our borders - Boris is more grounded in reality than you,
could be a role model for the whole of the EU
Yes, a role model for operating external borders better than currently occurs. That is still a long way away from the current internal borders between Ireland, NI & rUK. So, a useful look at opening up the EUs external borders to some degree (something many Brexitiers are dead against) but not a good replacement for the very open internal border that being in the EU (or strongly linked to its CU&SM) allows between the UK and its neighbours.
perditus
And if you really want to understand the Irish Border issue in the context of the GF Agreement you can listen to the Blair interview on the R4 Today program this morning. Little to do with trade and more to do with respecting nationalist aspirations in NI.
Well you say respecting nationalist aspirations, I think a more accurate way to say it would be respecting the quality of life for border communities and the rights of everyone on the Ireland to move freely as per the GFA, and avoid a return to serious paramilitary violence. The communities on both sides of the border are overwhelmingly Nationalist and are used to freedom of movement since the ceasefire.
People making comparisons with Canada and the U.S or Norway and Sweden are completely missing the point - the Canadians don't view U.S border officials as an occupying foreign force. If you put up barriers where there have been none for 20 years you stir up a hornets nest, doubly so if those barriers are manned by representatives of an unwelcome state. If you apply the "technological solution" Boris alluded to people will come in the night and smash your technology and if you appoint people to guard your technology those people will ultimately get shot.
@Jambalaya , C est dans l'air worth watching if you are in france , channel 5 ; i think it is on repeat tonight .
About effects of brexit on paris . Been very good so far , 4000 jobs confirmed so far and expecting double that .
School for english people in Paris are seeing record numbers of applicants . not only from individuals but also lots of companies , mainly in Finance .
And even better for Franckfurt .
@ jimjam. the point I was trying to make, badly, was that the GFA wasn't a trade agreement and the brexiteers seem to wilfully miss that point: that the loss of freedom of movement within the island of Ireland will be the betrayal of the nationalist in NI.
as I said we already wash pre-prepared salad that way
Once again showing that you haven't understood the point.
[i]jambalaya wrote:[/i]
First smart border US/Canada and another between Sweden and orway (whuch is why I imagine the EU asked head of Sweden’s customs service to wrote it)
Interesting case study. It works for a border between an EU country and Norway? So all we have to do to make it work is be like Norway - that is what your'e suggesting isn't it? 😆 😆 😆
@ jimjam. the point I was trying to make, badly, was that the GFA wasn’t a trade agreement and the brexiteers seem to wilfully miss that point: that the loss of freedom of movement within the island of Ireland will be the betrayal of the nationalist in NI.
Yeah fair enough, I don't disagree with that. I assumed by "aspirations" you meant plans for a united Ireland.
from the comments below
In honour of John Major's historic dead-sheep attack on Theresa May, here are the...
Top Ten Things the Brexiteers Say vs. What They Really Think
10. There will be much more money going into the NHS after Brexit.
Obviously, healthcare is going to get A LOT more expensive after we sell the NHS to Trump. But anyone with any sense has already loaded up on US private healthcare stocks, so no problem. You can’t afford that? Look, Brexit is all about standing on your own two feet. That’s what the People voted for.
9. The Irish border is an imaginary problem.
Bit like Ireland itself, really. U2, Riverdance, James Joyce. All a bit of a jolly fiction. They’re not called the British Isles for nothing, you see. That chap with the funny name – calls himself the Tea Shack, or something – he’ll see sense eventually. If not, we’ll just have to send in the… Well, you know what I’m saying. We’ve had enough of interfering foreigners.
8. We must not become a vassal state.
Well, not of the EU, ha-ha! But China, Russia, the US… Well, let’s be realistic, for once. They’re a lot more powerful than us. But if we’re nice to them, they’ll probably let us keep the Royal Family and the Cayman Islands. And that’s what Brexit is all about.
7. Being in the EU is like being shackled to a corpse.
It’s like one of those awful Nordic Noir shows on BBC4. All free childcare, refugees and workers’ rights! Well, we don’t want any of that here. We’re going to stick to Midsomer Murders, where the toffs worry about inheriting the big house and the plebs know their place. That’s the British Dream, and it’s what the People voted for.
6. We need to take back control of our laws, our borders and our money.
Exactly. But did you see what we did there? Who’s we? People didn’t vote to take back control just to hand it over to all those whinging Remainers in Parliament. Or to those so-called experts at the Treasury and the CBI. Or the citizens of nowhere in the big cities. Or the snowflake millennials. Who's left? Jacob, Nigel and the patriotic press, basically. Look, we had a referendum. That’s democracy.
5. We need the freedom to strike our own deals and be competitive.
Why should we have to play by the same rules as Germany, eh? It’s not fair. Who won the bloody war? Look, if they want to work hard, train and pay their workers properly, and flood the world with their cars, software and high-tech engineering, that’s their look-out. All we need to do is deregulate the City, dump all those cushy so-called workers’ rights, scrap all the job-killing environmental red tape – and Britain will boom. We’ll be the Singapore of Europe. Or possibly the Mexico. One of those. The People voted, you know.
4. Staying in a customs union would be a betrayal of voters.
All right, technically, if you insist on being really anal about it, it’s true that, during the referendum campaign, we didn’t mention customs unions, or single markets, or the Irish border, or financial passporting, or VAT collection, or air traffic rules, or pharmaceutical approvals, or… Look, shut up! The People have spoken! They know they’re being betrayed! Because we just told them so!
3. Brexit isn’t going to be some Mad Max dystopian future.
Look, for a start, this global warming thing is grossly exaggerated. And Australia is crying out for a trade deal with us. There must be lots things they can’t get from their neighbours in Asia that they can buy from us. Anyway, the whole point of Brexit is not to crash forward into the future, but to make Britain great again by recovering our glorious past. If we but reach out to the peoples of the Empire, we may rest assured that they will respond accordingly. That’s the promise of Brexit.
2. We will continue to go on cheapo flights to stag parties in ancient cities.
They probably won’t let us in, though, the bastards – but that’s just typical of the petty, spiteful EU that’s always trying to do Britain down. Just tell them to stuff their cuisine and culture, and jet off to Florida instead. I hear that Mar-a-Lago is lovely at any time of year.
1. Brexit means Brexit.
Yes, It’s a golden oldie, I know. And it’s all a bit metaphysical. But when I see a copy of the Daily Mail lying in a gutter, I want to tenderly pick it up and brush it down. When I hear some kids yelling at a Polish builder, it brings a glow to my heart. When Nigel Farage pops up on Question Time yet again, I know that something’s right with the world. When I visit London and it doesn’t feel foreign like it used to, I walk with a spring in my step. And when Boris Johnson or Jacob Rees-Mogg says that there’s nothing to worry about and that we can look forward to living in the best and most British of all possible worlds, I feel as if transported into an antique world of wonder.
That’s the magic of Brexit. And it’s what the People voted for.
Major was kicked out as PM by his own party over Europe and the electorate then gave the Tories 10 years in opposition.
Couple of points: 1) he was kicked out by the electorate, not his party. 2) as you brexiteers are obsessed with saying, it was for many other reasons and not Europe, only this time it really wasn’t. The Tories had been in power so long they were going to go sooner or later, and let’s face it, he’d made a complete hash of things at home. 3) The succession of useful leaders the Tories installed after the loss was what kept the Tories out of power. Oddly nobody fancy neither Ian nor Duncan Smith for starters...
I've seen a lot of comedy stuff about Brexit and brexiters etc... but none about remaining? You know how you know Brexiters are wrong? They don't have memes
I'm not sure if memes or their abscence really qualify as evidence of anything other than the fact that you are in an echo chamber but if you google "brexit remain meme" you will see that they do in fact, have memes.
I suppose that we can’t trust the political opinions of the men who brought us Black Wednesday and the Iraq invasion, then who can we trust?
Compared to Mogg, yeah they're alright !
Back on the border thing
The technology could work the EU is quite detailed in it's suggestions (it's taken 10+ years for Canada/USA & Norway/eu & cost millions, Boris Johnson mentioned c-charge, thats £80m a year)
They all violate May's pledge to have no infrastructure at the border & will questionably upset GFA too
But it needs the regulatory agreements in place, as well as the technology, May's redlines preclude the former & after 20 months the government have produced no detail on the latter (the gov white paper does repeat the word seamless a lot tho)