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Our position re:EU will keep shifting over the next 20 years… how that is democratically informed is a valid thing to discuss.
On Edukators point about new parties ( of the left)
In Scotland we have PR for all bar westminster elections. Several attempts have been made to form new parties / coalitions on the left. None have been significant bar the scottish socialists in the first holyrood parliament where they got 6 msps but have collapses since
considering new parties have failed in Scotand where politics is more open and radical and where the electoral system makes it easier for new parties to form then for Westminster its a non starter
Another pint on the speech. For the first time I have seen Corbyn actually seems to understand the various devolution issues and in a well crafted section makes the SNP into allies not enemies over this
Our defacto deputy PM is today talking up the importance of Welsh cheesemakers being able to sell cheese into England, free of tariff and non-tariff barriers, post Brexit.
We are through the looking glass now people…
The CBI has issued a statement supporting Corbyn's stance.
Now imagine hearing that statement in the pre-Brexit world? It really is a sort of Year Zero, isn't it?
Irony-filter-malfunctioning, coffee-spluttering headline of the day goes to the Guardian for this gem...
DUP ACUSE LABOUR OF POLITICAL OPPORTUNISM
lolz
Cake & eat from the Tories & Labour....
What a cluster-F of a mess we are in!
Cake & eat from the Tories & Labour….
What a cluster-F of a mess we are in!
I'm not sure what this means..
Our defacto deputy PM is today talking up the importance of Welsh cheesemakers being able to sell cheese into England,
What's so special about the cheesemakers - or was he referring to any manufacturers of dairy products?
It means:
"After months of rumours, denials of those rumours, more rumours and then an obligatory “away day”, Labour has today unveiled its new policy on Brexit.
At a speech in Coventry (which backed Brexit by 55 per cent to 45 per cent) Jeremy Corbyn will announce his party’s support of “a” customs union with the European Union after Brexit.
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On one level the move is smart politics: it puts clear water between Labour and the government and allows the party to side with Tory rebels when the issue comes to a vote in parliament later next year.
With about a dozen or more Conservatives almost certain to vote against the government on its customs union policy, there is a clear prospect of defeat for Theresa May.
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In such circumstances a snap general election cannot be ruled out, giving Mr Corbyn a realistic chance of achieving his ultimate aim of forming a government and delivering a Labour Brexit.
But looking carefully at Mr Corbyn’s speech it is clear that even if he was in power his objectives for a new type of relationship with the EU would be as difficult to negotiate as those of the Conservative government.
Labour, to use the well-worn cliché, wants to eat its cake and eat it as much as the Tory Brexiteers. It’s just different cake.
Mr Corbyn said that Labour would seek protections, clarifications or exemptions in relation to privatisation and public service competition directives, state aid and procurement rules.
He wants to be inside a customs union with close alignment and privileged access to the single market. Yet he implies that he doesn’t want to pay into the EU budget for this privilege. In fact, he suggests in the speech that he can negotiate a deal that returns £8 billion a year of Brexit savings into jobs and public services.
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Such a deal is as unrealistic as the kind of relationship the Tory right expect to be able to achieve. A future Labour government cannot simply arrive in Brussels and say, “We’re not the nasty Tories so give us everything you wouldn’t give them”.
But ultimately, like so much of Labour policy, this new position is not about what a Corbyn government would actually do in power. Rather it is about building an electoral coalition to achieve something that before the EU referendum would have been unthinkable: putting Jeremy Corbyn in government."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/labour-lays-out-its-brexit-cake-strategy-0rxvlg2pn
Also:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43189878
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Quite a lot of cake there I'm afraid..
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I prefer his cake to Eton mess.
Ah, I see. I still prefer Labour's idea as it's already been tried and proven to be workable.
Proven? Workable? How so?
mmmmmm cake
What Corbyn is asking for is somewhere around the Norway/ Switzerland option. He also has put a much more concrete proposal than anything yet to come out of the tory camp outlining what he wants in a fair amount of detail.
What’s so special about the cheesemakers?
I hear they're blessed.
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TJ-
"Another pint on the speech. For the first time I have seen Corbyn actually seems to understand the various devolution issues and in a well crafted section makes the SNP into allies not enemies over this"
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Yup. And I think it's really this simple, previously he (reasonably enough) listened to the presumed experts in Scottish Labour, who were all simpletons. Now he's either getting better info from new people there, or he's just ignoring them
Its taken Corbyn long enough to come round
but labour once again taking the lead with Brexit (transition, citizens rights etc)
Cementing labours position as the party of business, http://www.cbi.org.uk/news/comprehensive-customs-union-with-the-eu-a-real-world-solution/
while the Tories try & herd unicorns....
to be fair on May shes tried similar promises, but has been undermined at all opportunities by the constant stream of cabinet & backbench Brexiteers sniping at her whenever she tries to put a position forward
It definitely sounds better than the Tories but, crucially, there’s still elements of cake about that the EU won’t accept.
The 2 main parties are asking for & offering things which they simply cannot promise or seem remotely able to deliver!
A total cluster-F!
20 months of Tory infighting over Brexit has simply presented Corbyn with an open goal with a semi-repspectable sounding policy, that his own party wont shred to pieces as part of their own personal ego wars to secure the PMship in the near future.
Where's our resident sanctimonious blowhard?
Its a resaonable starting point for negotiation thos. clear in what he wants. No huge barriers to most of it. respectes the GFA most crucially which nothing from the tories does.
May has agreed no divergence for NI and no border in the irish sea but no CU for the UK - that is simple nonsense and cannot work
What Corbyn is asking for is somewhere around the Norway/ Switzerland option
Isn't this also awful?
We can't negotiate our own deals, and we have little or no say in what the EU decide to do.
Either we leave properly and at least get the benefits (such as they are) or we admit it was all just stupid and give up and stay in.
No one likes admitting being stupid......
What corbyn wants is still a stupid and impossible helping of cake, but it's a differently stupid and impossible helping of cake from the tories and perhaps more importantly it can be seen as one step closer to calling the whole thing off.
Where’s our resident sanctimonious blowhard?
Missing believed banned
Jeremy Corbyn COMEDY GOLD 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
“Supporting new cake” - PMSL you could not make this up
https://order-order.com/2018/02/26/corbyn-join-us-supporting-option-new-cake
In othet news OBR revises economy up again - get in 🙂 🙂 🙂
Isn’t this also awful?
We can’t negotiate our own deals, and we have little or no say in what the EU decide to do.
Either we leave properly and at least get the benefits (such as they are) or we admit it was all just stupid and give up and stay in.
Paving the way to stay in or rejoin after a 2 year transition.
Jeremy Corbyn COMEDY GOLD
Nice little bit of irony to brighten up an otherwise dreary Monday. Thanks jamba.
Oh and is Guido Fawkes now just a less funny right wing version of the Mash?
In othet news OBR revises economy up again
#fakenews
I thought growth was revised down, http://www.cityam.com/281076/uk-economic-growth-revised-down-end-2017
wasnt it was the OBRs prediction revised up?
& we all know what brexiters dont believe in forecasting 😉
watching the tories sink themselves as the party of business to chase the dying demographic of little englanders is amusing, more so now that the opposition are actually looking out for the country's interests re Brexshit
“Supporting new cake” – PMSL you could not make this up
To be honest I'm getting used to the right making things up, appears to be the only way they will make their case.
I wouldn't laugh too hard - over on pistonheads some of them are turning their compasses around now. Lots of the UK may follow.
Not that it's my benchmark but did you see the bit where the CBI endorsed this move?
Hooray, we’ll finally be rid of these sort of shennanigans
https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/968082475137359874
Oh and is Guido Fawkes now just a less funny right wing version of the Mash?
Less funny and design looks a bit Ling.
ninfan getting a bit desperate there?!?
he was qualified to be deputy secretary-general, then got promoted to secretary general
sounds like pretty standard career progression to me!
still at least free of the shackles of the EU we'd escape such controversial; appomitments
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Hooray, we’ll finally be rid of these sort of shennanigans
Because at no point has any British government appointed people with no qualifications or experience to undemocratic positions
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In othet news OBR revises economy up again – get in
Where ?
I'm cherry picking but: " The persistence of weak productivity growth does not bode well for the UK’s growth potential in the years ahead."
The only good news is we've saved a few quid on coppers.
he was qualified to be deputy secretary-general, then got promoted to Secretary General, sounds like pretty standard career progression to me!
Wait till you see the relocation package he got between posts...
Guys - the tone of this debate has been good the last couple of days. I welcome Jamba and ninfan back to make the case for the other side. can we please keep it respectful and debate the issues?
I think mrlebowski just about has it right. It's all about political manoeuvring by Corbyn, for his ultimate goal of getting a socialist Labour government. The customs union serves him well in two ways, it appeases the right wingers in his party and more importantly drives a wedge between Labour and the Tories, therefore more chance of a major parliamentary defeat and ultimately a general election.
I'm not sure how his former backbench rebel colleagues on the left of the party will see it, more than likely as a betrayal. Fortunately for him they pose less of a problem than the backbench rabble rousers in the Tory party. It's obvious he's tried to appease them too, mentioning the 'opt outs' on posted workers directive and public service competition directives. This has received mixed reactions, John Mann for example is happy with the position whilst Frank Field isn't. I can't see the EU or ECJ accepting any exemptions that impinge on any of the four freedoms.
NInfan has no position except to troll, increasingly poorly and irrationally these days, and anyone who defends this needs to have a long hard look at themselves - i bet he voted remain - not that I would believe any answer he gave to anything.
I think mrlebowski just about has it right. It’s all about political manoeuvring by Corbyn, for his ultimate goal of getting a socialist Labour government.
I find this very strange its like criticising a striker for scoring a tap in. He is a politician its hardly news they do things for political reasons.
I can’t see the EU or ECJ accepting any exemptions that impinge on any of the four freedoms.
Me neither but i think its a far more realistic starting position
Having at first pretty much dismissed Corbyn's speech… …and I still think it's muddled… …and very hard to get agreement with rEU… but… I think he's made a few good moves…
1) He is proposing pretty much what Mefty and myself almost agreed was a good compromise… a customs union/agreement with the EU for manufactured goods… leaving us to persue our own course (god help us) for food, fish and services.
2) Proposed that we keep collaborating in bodies such as Euratom, Eurasmus, and food standards and chemicals agencies.
But, his attempt to claim some kind of Brexit dividend to spend on public services either points to his lack of economic understanding, or groups him in with the other disegenuous Brexit cheerleaders.
whattiler, four freedoms don't have anything to do with the customs union. There also seems little chance of the EU accepting any of his demands for a say over the rules of the CU. It's just a different type of cakeism.
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What Corbyn is asking for is somewhere around the Norway/ Switzerland option
Isn’t this also awful?
It's a lot less awful than any of the alternatives which "honour the result of the referendum". It wouldn't actually be terribly painful overall - probably worse than our current position, but a lot of things would stay the same. The obvious advantage being that Farage is still out of a job.
the captain, I was referring to his exemptions on posted workers and public services competition directives, these have plenty to do with the four freedoms. His demands for a say over the CU are just a political tool, his demands for these exemptions are ideological, but both as you say different types of cakeism. I think he knows this but his main objective is not to get the EU to accept them it's to get in to No 10. FWIW I can't fault him on that, if it gets rid of the Tories and we have a socialist Labour party in government. Something we've not seen since I've lived in this country.