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The entire Tory strategy on brexit has been to invent ambiguous phrases that enable all of their various factions to claim victory while kicking the can a little further down the road.
Utterly vacuous on any content.
Indeed TJ
The economy has collapsed
There are no bankers left in London and no trading activity either
Ditto nurses in the NHS. Remember them?
And the latest noise has nothing to do with getting down to the nitty gritty (at last)
no EU citizens coming to UK any more
”City of dreams.....la,la”
But given the budget dilemma, no wonder Tusk and Co are as narky as their UK-based allies.
Go on guys push us into a hard Brexshit and watch the €€€€ bill go up by the day
No-one is pushing, Britain is jumping. ARGhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh- SPLAT !
Solidarität in Aktion:
The level of debate on this thread has reached a point where even Jamba might make sense. It’s a shame that petty rivalry’s have got in the way of decent discussion.
Oh and I agree with zokes when he says thm might get a longer leash if he didn’t come across as such an utter prick.
Troll lists a load of claims that absolutely no one has made… waste of space. I waste more space drawing attention to such a basic troll tactic… others waste more space commenting on how such tactics should just be ignored… troll kills thread with help of all involved… all so tedious. Including my waste of space contributions. Troll wins.
From your own link THM:
"With Britain leaving the European Union, Germany will be expected to contribute more to the EU’s budget. Ms. Merkel’s new coalition has promised to fill the gap."
Hmmm thinking about the KFC chaos caused by DHL not registering the cold storage
In a statement, the council added: “There is no requirement for the DHL cold-storage facility to be licensed, but it does need to be registered. We have now received the relevant documentation and expect to be able to approve the registration in the next few days.”
and wondering how a relatively minor thing has played out does make me wonder how much chaos could be caused by any oversight on Brexit.
The airline/euroatom/pharma stuff seems slightly more involved.
What's the British for 'French fries'?
@dudeofdoom: yup, and kfc/dhl is the allegedly efficient private sector
Going back 1100+ pages and 44,000+ posts and to answer the original question - yes, I'm in as I always have been.
More than 44,000 posts when the answer to the question is either......yes or no.
Stick to the script boys & girls.
The script was never written.. it's still just an idea.
So far it's just been a painful, cringeworthy and unfunny series of rehearsals.
It's not like there's even anyone any good in it either.
Why not have another vote on the script before it flops and goes straight to dvd.
In.
Failing that …close and collaborative… closer than Norway and the Swiss… (especially for Ireland)… not a relationship based on something the Canadians have only just begun using from the other side of the Atlantic.
Tbf, the Govt position they came up with yesterday is their starting point for negotiations. Of course they’ll have to compromise. The real crime is that this could have been done in late ‘16 (or the week after the referendum if CMD had stuck around) and the intervening time could have been spent making it happen. As it is, we’ve pissed around so long that there’s no time to lobby, develop detail etc etc.
airtagic. Its taken this long to find a form of words May can carry thru cabinet due to the virtually irreconcilable differences in the cabinet. The fact that it ( from media reports) is never going to fly with the EU is irrelevant to the tories. Its all about maintaining power in the UK for them. When ( as it will be) completely rebuffed by the EU then they will try to blame the EU for not altering its basic premises to allow the tories what they want.
The problem the tories face is anything acceptable to one part of the party is not acceptable to the other parts and that any form of words that can unite the Tories is so obviously not acceptable to the EU. too many tories live in a little bubble where they all think the same so they agree amongst themselves what they want and then all agree with each other it will happen - but as soon as it hits the EU the bubble bursts
We see this in the posts on here where all the bad news is dismissed as remoaning and "good news" is invented in a manner that totally flies in the face of the facts
In 40+ years a political geek I have never seen anything like this and I have seen some political shambles. The damage done to the country is huge and irreversible. The only good to come out of this is I think this is the death of the tory party. I cannot see how a split can be avoided given that a large section of the party do not wnt to leave the EU and a large section wants isolation. When the tories vote with labour to kill the bill then brown sticky stuff will really hit the air circulation device
no time to lobby, develop detail etc etc.
This is by design not by accident. There is no detailed proposal that will work, the only possible outcome from the tory POV is a mad scrabble at the 11th hour and blame the EU for the inevitable oversights and cock-ups. Any measured thoughtful process rapidly collapses into contradictions and tory infighting. They can't move forward as there is no agreement as to which direction actually is forwards.
"ambitious managed divergence" isn't a policy, it's just the current catchphrase to kick the can a few yards down the road, as were "bespoke deal" and "best possible brexit" in their day.
More good news as we head ever upward toward the Elysian Fields of Brexit.
the Govt position they came up with yesterday is their starting point for negotiations. Of course they’ll have to compromise
I think you mean capitulate as the integrity of the EU market is the EU prime concern and they have said endlessly that there can be no a la carte picking and choosing on the free market its all or nothing.
Tusk told reporters on Friday: “I am glad the UK government seems to be moving towards a more detailed position.
“However, if the media reports are correct, I am afraid the UK position today is based on pure illusion. It looks like the cake [and eat it] philosophy is still alive.
“From the very start it has been a set principle of the EU27 that there cannot be any cherrypicking of single market à la carte. This will continue to be a key principle, I have no doubt.”
Speaking at a summit of EU27 member states in Brussels, to discuss the EU’s budget and leadership post-Brexit, Leo Varadkar, the Irish taoiseach, also insisted that the single market was “not à la carte”.
What we want* and what we can get are still some distance apart and "negotiating" for things they have said no to is pointless. This is more about having an all must win prizes soution for the Tories - Brexit ones will blame the EU, Remainers will blame the hardcore Tories.
I still think there will be a "deal" but it will be so shit neither brexiter or remainer will actually like it.
* TBH I am not sure if Mays main aim here is to get a good deal for the Uk or keep the tory party together/ her in power.
Junkyard - its all about the tory party IMO and keeping them in power.
She wishes to do both it is which she values most party/power v country
I also think this is not a party political issue I think any politician in her shoes would be playing a sticky wicket.
Oh I agree. I am actually a bit surprised she has kept going trying to make the best of an impossible situation. I suppose its a sense of duty as in her eyes she is the only person who can sort it and if she goes everything - the troy party and the UK fall apart.
Still a fair chance this will end up with the end of the UK as Scotland will not be happy with the deal I amsure - especially if NI get a special deal denied to Scotland
Of course we still have no answer to the NI issue. the only practicable ones are stay in the customs union or a hard border in the Irish sea - nether of which can May get agreed I am sure.
Jezza is due to make s speech on Monday clarifying labours position on Brexit. In any sane world they would come out and clearly back remaining in the single market and the customs union
However, in our present totally dysfunctional political climate, I expect we’ll get the same vague, contradictory unworkable cake-and-eat-it fudge that Mays endless dithering has delivered
so to resume :
nothing change except from blue passports and less EU migrants but more from rest of the world .
The thing with jezzer is he is a leaver by philosophy.
But there appear to be some contradictions to his stance, he wants a more socislist style government, as long as it's his, and not a bigger better fairer government, aka the EU.
He's been sitting on the fence, whipping his MPs to abstain on key votes to maintain an ambiguous position, which has essentially supported the Conservatives so far.
And he's kinda getting away with it as he's not in the hot seat.. Quite a cushdy position, however he'll find himself in a similar position as May if he does end up as PM.
Europes position is clear, the 4 freedoms or nothing.
Jezza is a natural leaver and i do agree that labour would be in as much trouble - not quite as much as the committed brexiters tend to be certain type of tory- if they were in charge, Its an issue that is not simple left v right
But there appear to be some contradictions to his stance, he wants a more socislist style government, as long as it’s his, and not a bigger better fairer government, aka the EU.
I think he sees the EU as a large free market club [ no one can see it as socialist*] more interested in maximising trade than a fairer world. I think he dislikes it state aid stance as well. Its true that his position is at odds with his party, his supporters and the MP's who would all back a custom union.
he may well do it just to defeat May as a way to power rather than as an act of principle. I do not know if he is as talented/Machiavellian to do such a thing.
* its one nation Tory IMHO Very keen on free trade and small state** and de regulation but with an acceptance to help the needy rather than expect them to help themself
**All govts want more power but i dont think the EU is that expansionist except in its role v national govts.
Corbyn I believe has been persuaded that he needs to be a bit more pro EU. Partly for political reasons and partly as a bulwark against the far right. It will be interesting to see what position they come up with tho. I suspect a Norway type position
As a beneficiary of EU employment regulations(*) I certainly don't have such a jaundiced view. It is clear that the EU has acted to protect workers and the population generally (eg through environmental protection) in a way quite unlike what "free market club" would usually imply.
(*) as of course many people are, perhaps unknowingly
What about the EU's environmental record? I keep seeing EU regs about environmental issues and it would seem to me to be in a good place to make them as it can make them apply to everyone equally to keep a level playing field and the commission's point of view would seem to be a little further away from short termist electioneering. But if a smaller country has to try and compete with a large bloc then surely environment regs would be easy to cut.
Apparently Jeremy is going to make a speach soon, will it be a theresa may style film flam, or will he take a position..
My bet is he takes a nuanced postion and leaves some wriggle room
My bet is that he tries to compromise by trying to represent the overwhelming pro EU views of his party, but just can’t manage to do it, and reverting back to his rebellious backbencher self - which in his own head he still is - in the Q&A sessions after his vague, non-comittal prepared speech - reverts back to his personal knee-jerk anti-EU stance and scuppers all hope of a sensible minimal damage Brexit position from the Labour Party, as most of his own MPs do a collective face-palm and lapse into despair
i’d put my house on it
I’m looking forward to another generous serving of incoherent cakeist blether.
i’d put my house on it
I thought your pathological anti-Corbynism had been quiet for a while 😉
For now at least he continues to get to play the small target game. Sure, were he in May’s shoes right now he’d find it a lot trickier, but he isn’t, so small target works. If the Tories continue to tear themselves asunder, it might work all the way to number 10. At this stage I don’t think he could do much worse than May’s rank incompetence. Couldn’t run the Home Office, and sure as hell can’t run the country.
Liam Fox on Marr...... the man is not fit for any job that involves anything sharp (knives and wit)
My bet is he takes a nuanced postion and leaves some wriggle room
Just like May has ?
Somewhere between TJ's view and Binners
Will say something clear yet vague - perhaps he is improving as a politician after all
Thank god an actual debate has broken out lets not get distracted and engage as it could be like this
Will say something clear yet vague – perhaps he is improving as a politician after all
Yup. At this stage he really doesn’t have to say much. He’s not in government, an election is unlikely any time soon, and one way or the other it’s likely to be done before either of those things happens.
Well, it'll be done (and done in a more damaging form) if he keeps whipping his MPs to support the government… no point any Conservative MPs breaking ranks and voting for a sensible direction if both the two biggest parties are whipping MPs in the other direction. This whole "leave the Tories to f'ck things up, then move into number 10" approach is damaging to my family and friends. I won't be cheering him if he sticks to it, that's for sure.
I think an election is 50/50 before leave date. How much longer can May go on and how much longer can she keep the rabid right, the tory remainers and the DUP on side?
The big test will be the vote on the coming bill when a tory amendment to remain in the single market / customs union will be voted on. A defeat there leaves the tory position in tatters. quick vote of no confidence, bingo - new elections.
The DUP will not put up with a border in the North sea which is the only possible way of respecting the GFA and leaving the single market, customs union and they will be quite prepared to pull everything down.
The Rabids will not accept any jurisdiction of the ECJ which unfortunately for them is essential if euro financial services are to remain in London and for a whole host of other trade reasons for other sectors. also the ECJ will have to continue to be able to hear the cases of EU citizens in th UK
The remainers in the tory party will not accept a cliff edge brexit as they know how damaging that would be to the economy not being blinded by ideology and xenophobia
The "managed divergance" or whatever phrase they used is such an obvious no from the EU that it won't survive long as a compromise position and when that is soundly rebuffed then the fracture lines will all open up again.
Well, it’ll be done (and done in a more damaging form) if he keeps whipping his MPs to support the government…
That much is true, but it’s still a very delicate position. We know 17m people voted to leave. Most of them are still in the UK, and dismissing them last time is what got us in this mess. Given the rabid press he, and labour in general, need to be very careful of cries of anti democratic behaviour, however ill founded, sticking.
true but we also know may stood on a ticket of back me for a hard Brexit and got an electoral kicking. We also know the opposition an defeat the govt on a CU vote. The issue is will he do this, I think the party want to its whether he will do it.
Either way he is neither holding the govt to account nor is he opposing them. Its weak leadership IMHO - just as weak as May as neither of them is willing to openly say what they really ant - perhaps this will change for Labour[ not optimistic] this week but it wont for the tories.
the only part of the press that will attack him are the ones prepared to print lies about spying anyone so attacks from them are guaranteed as long as he keeps breathing - FFS they even tried to portray Ed milliband as some firebrand marxist [ and his dad as a traitor ] so I think we an assume they will also attack any labour leader to the left of Gove.
true but we also know may stood on a ticket of back me for a hard Brexit and got an electoral kicking.
But the pro-hard Brexit parties still won the general election, right?
I actually think Hard Brexit is the logical answer of choosing to leave the EU. Anything less and we take what we have now, make it worse and it costs us more money.
However, Hard Brexit is going to make this a worse place to live and cost us more money too. And **** the Irish (both sides of the line)
We basically had Soft Brexit before we choose to leave.
....the only real answer is to say "Actually, this was a bad idea. The slim majority of people who voted for it had their say, but.... it's just bad and will affect so many other people - the ones who didn't vote and who voted to stay - negatively, that their needs outweigh yours."
"Also, since we're keeping freedom of movement you can all bugger off to Spain!"
The answer to me is a second referendum now that the lies of the leavers are exposed and the scale of the damage is evident
But the pro-hard Brexit parties still won the general election, right?
No. UKIP were obliterated