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Hurrah – you’re starting to understand all this sovereignty and parliamentary supremacy thing at last, well done!
Yes, we could already change our own rules to make them tighter, without leaving the EU, but didn't with good reason. Likewise, on leaving the EU we could sign up to keep, or even extend FoM as part of our new relationship… and that would be entirely in keeping with the referendum result.
What we cannot sign up for, however, is [i]reciprocal[/i] freedom of movement. So whilst we can let anyone in, we cannot expect the EU to do the same. They too can do what they like.
FoM moves both ways did you not realise this? Or do you not care?
Yes we could, take a look at Norway and Switzerland.
Nope mol
There a various options other than what I assume you mean by hard Brexshit ie WTO
each have different pros and cons hence your notion of soft versus hard is meaningless as I said or to use your language (I think) a gross oversimplification
Why do we need to look at Norway or Switzerland?
There was very clear guidance that the result would be respected whatever the outcome. I have quoted it many times. But feel free to ignore this if it helps.
I agree.
Given outside the legislation which did not indicate whether a 50%+1 or the more common 2/3s majority should be considered a winning result. Nor whether we would withdraw if there was a winning leave result.
I appreciate you are not predisposed to accepting the flaw at the heart of it all but it’s there.
The decision to make the referendum binding should have been in the legislation and it wasn’t.
I may of course be wrong.
Oh gosh, how erudite.
I know. Brought to your level. Shameful and I apologise most wholeheartedly.
I would agree with you that it would have been better to have a more definitive and higher threshold and for this to have been legislated for. But it wasn’t. Tant pis.
THM - thank you. We are in agreement.
So, as the Brexit Cheerleaders won't outline a new relationship with the EU that they can try and find consensus for… why don't those of us who would rather we kept membership try and knock together heads and find a Leave to aim for…
I'll start…
• continued financial contributions towards shared institutions we can take part in… such as Euratom.
• UK:EU agreement for continued FOM, and open borders, Schengen like but with extensions to allow Ireland to be included, to promote trade and cooperation.
• The UK designed Single Market to include the UK for goods only and a (not services or agriculture or fisheries) customs agreement and CCP that allows the UK to seek new trade deals for the excluded industries.
• Additional Customs agreement for NI, including agriculture, with new customs border for agri goods at NI:rUK ports.
As for parliamentary sovereignty – that’s great if you have faith in your parliament.
Nothing stopping you voting for another one is there?
Damn this 'democracy' trap that we're all living in - without that we could all have exactly what we wanted.
Ninfan - ?
Hmm but what if the two possibilities are widely opposite? Would it not be better to have some stuff decided outside the normal ideological flip flop?
Something to give more stability? After all we don't have an effective second house in this country.
But likewise, YOU could vote for a different EU representative if you weren't happy.
Tant pis
That's basically your entire point isn't it? Tough shit.
Ok, thanks for that. Now should we discuss the issues? Are there any issues? Or should we just give up and go back to our menial jobs letting the exalted ones tell us what's best for us?
See this whole sovereignty thing is purely nationalist.
Our current government is made up of representatives from all over the UK. People who aren't Welsh get to tell me what to do in Wales. But this is ok, because I'm part of the UK, right? So why is it NOT ok to get a little input from people from Norway or France? It's because they are FOREIGN isn't it? They are THEM not US?
Well over here, the English could easily be THEM too, couldn't they?
Have you tried google translate?
the more common 2/3s majority should be considered a winning result.
Nothing more common about 2/3 majorities in referendums the reverse is true.
Mefty, outline the relationship you think we should be trying to arrive it with the EU please… we need to know what we should be getting behind… only Jamba has had the grace to tell us his position. We need more than "not EU membership" if we're to support this bright new future ahead of us…
I think a trade deal is the right way to go as remaining in either the CU or the Single Market limits our ability to find our own way in the world and just guarantees a worse position than we have now - there is no potential for upside. Other than that I am pretty dovish on Freedom of Movement but think a compromise on Freedom of Movement of Labour would be a good compromise, though I am not convinced the government is willing to go that far. We have to maintain a border. Customs borders with NI without infrastructure other than ANPR etc, high thresholds and pre-clearance for trusted traders.
Have you tried google translate?
Did I mistranslate tant pis?
I think a trade deal is the right way to go as remaining in either the CU or the Single Market limits our ability to find our own way in the world
So.. why would 'our own way' be better than being linked to trade with our nearest neighbours? Seems an awful lot of conjecture there, don't you think?
Ah… the "just pretend it isn't a customs border" solution…
our own way in the world
Which is where, with whom, under what terms?
Anyway, you seem quite close to Jamba on this… cut more ties with Europe to "maximise" freedom to chase new trade deals with nonEU/EAA countries… what do you think to the "no transition deal, persue an FTA after we've left" approach he seems to prefer…?
Slightly 😉
I think a trade deal is the right way to go as remaining in either the CU or the Single Market limits our ability to find our own way in the world
What proportion of UK peeps agree that we should Leave the Single Market, do we reckon… most polls show about 15%, yes? I'm sure that could be raised much higher, when the benefits of that decision vs the damaging effects are presented properly to the UK population… but could it be raised to anything like 50%?
Not really Jambas ideal falls flat against many of our goals including
1 Tariff free trade with Europe
2. Access to single market for services
3. Seamless and frictionless borders
4. Voluntary participation in EU programmes
Other FTA solutions vary against these goals
I was asking Mefty.
Kelvin why do you keep missing the elephant
the only countries that have full membership of the single market are EU member states. We have chosen not to be an EU member state. Ergo we have given up full membership of the single market
...it’s sitting in the middle of the room. Big ears and tusks
Bore off.
Why was that too hard to answer?
only member states have full membetship of the single market. We have chosen to give that membership up. The percentages were published
I didn't say "full membership", and nor did Mefty.
Please take your tedious trolling and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.
Can we have a referendum on the single market?
It’s important - hence why you seem to be struggling and resorting to being rude
as you know, or at least should do, they are different ways we could continue to have access to the EU but each one involves different compromises. Hence we want to negotiate our own version. Some call that a bespoke deal but that seems to upset a few folk.
we had one mol. We lost
You love people being rude to you, otherwise why would you troll so much? Surely, that's the fun of it for you?
One mans trolling is another mans asking a question you can’t/won’t answer.
Pages and pages of "answers" as regards operating in the SM & CU, via agreements, to the same or limited degree as now, but not being full members, and the loss of control that goes along with that. Read back. Get out of your troll loop.
Getting there exactly
So why talk about leaving the SM? Why all the we don’t know what’s happening BS
We know that there may be alternative ways in which we can continue to have access to the SM and vice versa. And we know the position of the government in relation to them and where the contradictions lie
so after pages and pages of we don’t know what’s happening, it’s actaully very clear. Unless you are undemocractic and want to misrepresent what is happening in order to reverse a battle lost. That’s clear too.
Jamba and Mefty have both made it clear why they think that the worst way to Leave the EU is stay in the SM, and why, without playing your time wasting games.
Ah… the “just pretend it isn’t a customs border” solution…
Well if it is good enough for the Head of HMRC, I am not one to have the temerity to doubt it.
I am miles away from Jambalaya, he favours WTO, I said a trade deal is the way to go and we need to negotiate it when we have most to offer which is now. As regards the future, who knows, exciting isn't it.
So trade deal, but no customs agreement of any kind Mefty? Or just not one resembling the Customs Union? Do you not think a limited customs agreement would help/enable keeping the NI border as free moving as you are outlining? FTA might be enough… not read anything that really sugggests that's the case though. The Sweden/Norway border is pretty messy for goods.
Ideally we would have frictionless borders, but if the only way of achieving that is to remain in the Customs Union, then we should leave because that would limit our future opportunities too much. If there is no way to obtain future upside then it is a bit of a cop out, albeit one that some leavers may be happy with. I should add I voted Remain.
I know the EU would kick and scream… what what about a customs agreement for goods (for frictionless borders), but not services or agri and fish? Should we not aim for that… gives us control over trade deals with third countries for services (the biggy), food, fishing and farming. Special case for Ireland (DUP would kick and scream) as regards agri?
CU give no access to services
Why would the UK pursue that option?
Frictionless borders for manufacturing, and freedom to strike new trade deals for agri (we won't be in CAP anyway) and services (the biggie for us when it comes to distant markets).
Reading that going to America thread horrified me with the lack of time off out there.
Can we look forward to a reduction of paid holiday and sick leave?
After all , we will have to be competitive in this brave new world.
If we ship in Bangladeshis to do all the shit jobs , will they have any rights? I'm sure they would take whatever is going if it means living somewhere that won't be flooded.
CU give no access to services
Agreed, but it also doesn't prevent us striking our own trade deals either… that's the Common Economic Policy… but the two are so often lumped tighter when talking about this. To be clear, I'm suggesting an agreement that forms a CU and CEP for manufactured goods, but not agri, fish, or services… the three areas where I've heard the most about "taking back control" and heading out to get new better trade deals… manufacturing can keep its frictionless supply chains, and sell into all 30 odd geographically close countries with hassle.