[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

5 things we want

Cake

Unicorns

Sovereignty

Blue passports

The British Empire back circa 1922

RM not clearly. His desires conflict obviously with several of the governments objectives

correctly TM ignores that

THM with more pish?  there is not even agreement in the cabinet on what they want.  The EU negotiators are alternating between pleading for some idea of what the torires want and laughing at them for being unable to spell it out.

So go on them THM - let us know what the government position is that you and you alone are privy to- 'cos not even May knows.  The crunch cabinet meeting to thrash out the position is IIRC later this week.

No lists of hopes count of course.  concrete proposals only please.  Not wishlists of wishful thinking that are simply not possible and / or have already been ruled out

Put up or shut up.  No answer just confirms what we all know - you have no idea at all and neother do the tories.

I prefer it when you use your kilfile

that way you might, just might, respect cougar’s wishes. Long shot obviously

Would you like the quotes again of Merkel, Barnier and other significant players asking for the Tories to actually spell out what they want?

"The British Government has still provided “no clarification” about what it actually wants to get out of Brexit, leaving the EU with “no idea” about the sort of relationship it is aiming for, a top Brussels ally of Angela Merkel has warned.

Manfred Weber, the leader of the largest group of MEPs in the European Parliament, said the UK needed “to come out with concrete proposals very soon” and complained that while Theresa May was happy to rule things out, she would not say what she actually wanted."

Have a listen to his statement
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;"> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-negotiations-talks-deal-manfred-weber-angela-merkel-germany-eu-michel-barnier-david-davis-a8196776.html</span>

Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament’s Brexit coordinator, suggested that the Prime Minister was locked in “a domestic negotiation” with her own cabinet about what her policy actually was.

Michel Barnier, the European Commission’s chief negotiator, also said on Monday that “without a customs union and outside the single market, barriers to trade in goods and services are unavoidable”. He said it was time for the UK to “make a choice”

<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">On the Brexit negotiations themselves, he said the British government has unrealistic expectations — particularly on access to the EU market for financial services. U.K. Brexit Secretary David Davis has said the British government is seeking a free-trade agreement like the one the EU has with Canada but with much broader scope — “Canada plus plus plus” as he put it. And Chancellor Philip Hammond said last week he regards a post-Brexit deal that excludes services as unfair. “More than 80 percent of our economy is services. Services is the fastest growing area of global trade. And it is the area where we have our biggest comparative advantage,” he told the German paper Welt am Sonntag.</span>

<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">    Brok said that negotiations about the U.K.’s future relationship with the EU were so complex they would have to carry on into a transition period.</span>

<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">But Brok said there aren’t any trade deals around the world open to financial services, and that the U.K would have to maintain EU standards if it wants to retain something close to the current access it enjoys.</span>

Ach schade kein kilfile

but thank you very much for proving me right. So you quote DD and PH being clear on the fact that one of our goals is to ensure that it (the deal that you deny) includes services (PH) and that it’s more than the Canada deal (DD) which only provides very limited access to services

so your chosen quote gives detail on part of what we want and also confirms that the warring parties agree. Bravo

its so much better when you supply quotes to kill your own arguments rather than other people having to point the pork pies out. Less time and angst

Even the FT

"Prime minister Theresa May is under mounting pressure to clarify the UK’s future relationship with the EU"

<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">Downing Street said: “It is fair to say the prime minister has an open mind when it comes to these negotiations [about the future relationship with the EU].”</span>

Or the indy

<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">It comes as Ms May faced increasing pressure to set out her position on the UK's long term relationship with the European Union in the face of growing dissatisfaction from both wings of the Conservative Party.</span>

<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">The Prime Minister also resisted pleas to clear up confusion about her aims for the long-term relationship with the EU – despite warnings that her dithering would trigger a vote of no confidence in her leadership from Tory backbenchers.</span>

he is good at this trolling[ within the rules yet not respecting them] i will give him that

Ninfan is more entertaining though,even he can make cogent points in between his attempts to get a rise.

Not really junkyard - a good troll is believable and not easily refuted

come on THM - we want you to share your knowledge of this - knowledge not shared with May et al

So TJ now that you seem to be arguing for my points, we can progress

You have correctly identified that the UK government is seeking a FTA that includes services and that DD and PH both agree on that

So from your correct conclusion, we can now eliminate some of the existing off the shelf deals. Hey, it’s easy this stuff isn’t it?

after that - shall we try the Uak governments position on tariffs?

<div>teamhurtmore
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I prefer it when you use your kilfile

that way you might, just might, respect cougar’s wishes. Long shot obviously

</div>

The pot just called....

Se despite the collected EU negotiating team asking TM to give some proper details you still claim it's all there if we JFGI, though you are unable to actually point to the source you are reading. JRM despite being an obnoxious shit is also the figure head for the side of the party that have a significant amount of control on government policy due to the wafer thin majority/minority that May gave herself.

She can't ignore them and she can't do everything they want. But she can't negotiate properly with the threat of tanti's hanging over her..

THM - not at all

You claimed the UK position was clear.  I have shown you that 1) the cabinet is divided and 2) the EU negotiators have no idea what the UKs position is

You said you knew what the UKs position was.  Well lets hear it - put up or shut up.

That twitter map analysis is interesting.

I don't know if it’s meaningful, but it’s interesting.

it does suggest all the little Brexy snowflakes are melting away...

Yep

(the government and gov related bodies come up in the first few sites on any google search)

since you mention JRM you can help TJ with the tariff question. Then Jacob can be put back in his box and out of harms way

On the contrary having regurgitated ad verbatim what the other sides strat comm team want you to believe you then identified clearly (thank you) one of the key government goals and confirmed that PH and DD were agreed on that.

We are making progress. Now tariffs?

Not really going to play your little games, got links then post links, your always keen to shoot others down...

Any idea why the rest of the EU doesn't think the UK has a plan? Perhaps you need to get yourself over to Brussels and let them know how stupid they all are.

They are not stupid

They know how to manipulate the media narrative

You are demonstrating just how clever they are

If only our side was as smart and as media savvy

Tariffs?

a good troll is believable and not easily refuted

TBH I dont think he believes much of what he writes these days. Perhaps the slant but its just exaggerated for effect but neither side has any respect for the other.
I am not sure what anyone hopes to achieve here and I think this was what the mods were on about though we can all patronise within the rules. Its a bit pointless but we could.

Come on THM - we are all agog waiting to know what the tories hoped for end point is.  Something concrete please not meaningless waffle and platitudes or something that is not possible / has been ruled out.

Your inability to articulate this shows clearly that you actually have no idea.

Put up or shut up

If tariffs is too tricky, how about

does the uk wish to negotiate trade agreements independently?

TBH I dont think he believes much of what he writes these days. Perhaps the slant but its just exaggerated for effect but neither side has any respect for the other.

Reckon it's just the latest recruitment drive for the Tory party, got to be some clueless mugs that fall for it still. The transformation of the inept HS to a spectacular leader who's charisma gave her an election result that she truly deserved and a job she loves with adoring supporters and a mandate to give every tory MP a shot at being a minister.

“No idea” - you old tease

you have just helped me identify one of the goals and one in which two apparently opposing parties are in agreement

dont spoil the progress

tariffs?

Does the UK government want to end the jurisdiction of the ECJ?

Here you go - some more quotes from serious commentators that show that May and co simply do not have an endpoint to aim for

The EU warned Britain that it faced gridlock in trade talks unless it spelt out its Brexit goals as the minority UK government struggled to deal with a backlash from its own MPs over a transition out of the bloc.  ........

But, with concern growing in European capitals over political paralysis in London, Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, said that the subsequent phase of detailed trade talks would only begin as expected in March if the UK first made clear what it wanted.

“When it comes to negotiating with the British about the future, that time will come, assuming that they by that time have set out what they want,” Mr Barnier said.

The FT

Still waiting THM.

I have clearly asked you to set out what the tories end aim is - without posting meaningless platitudes or claiming impossible things are possible - you seem unable to do this.  Why?  Is it because you don't understand?  Or is it because as the tories themselves admit they have no agreed aim?

Yes we know you like what Barnier says. - ok if you want to take that at face value fair enough esp as you know he was talking about fin service negotiations that you deny will happen too (so we know their starting position on passporting. So good to know there will be negotiations there too)

bsck to the idea that we have no idea what the Uk gov’s position is

1. services included - tick

2. Tariffs?

3. Jurisdiction of ECJ?

We can help, highlight the link, either Ctrl C then Ctrl V or right click Copy then Paste.....

It's not that hard...

[b]kimbers[/b] wrote:

5 things we want
Cake
Unicorns
Sovereignty
Blue passports
The British Empire back circa 1922

pfft

red unicorns
blue unicorns
green unicorns
orange unicorns
invisible unicorns (though we might be prepared to compromise on those, we know how tricky they'll be)

TJ is doing very well without them

go on try tariffs. Does the UK government have a stated position here? Yes? No?

[b]teamhurtmore[/b] wrote:

TJ is doing very well without them
go on try tariffs. Does the UK government have a stated position here? Yes? No?

Does it have a stated position which isn't contradictory with other parts of its stated position?

In this case yes - hence my comments about JRM

go on try tariffs. Does the UK government have a stated position here? Yes? No?

Post a ****ing link, tell us what you know or get your leather elbow patches sewn on and go back to teaching geography or whatever it is your doing these days

Come on THM - you are so superior to us mere mortals please tell us ( and the tories) what their negotiating stance is.  the EU would like to know as  would the rest of us.

Superior ? Are you kidding. You kindly agreed with me. We are now in the same boat

We both agree that a clear goal of the UK government is that any deal must include services not just trade and that government ministers are agreed on this. That’s good progress on 30 mins ago

From this we now know which options that the EU are offering can be ruled out. It’s quite staightforward when you take it step by step

Current UK position, if you write it down then you have to start again once you change it

I have asked you to outline what the tories aim is for leaving the EU as you claim you know what it is.  No one else knows this not May nor the EU negotiators but you claim you do.But when asked to outline it you seem unable to do so.  Seems strange to me that you have all this knowledge that no one else is privy to but you wont share it

YOU have told ME part of it. You even quoted it  no need to be shy  no one will accuse you of being a Tory

with effort we could easily agree on more

up to you

Not at all. The answer are easy to find*. TJ has already outlined one of the trickier parts of their plan with quotes to prove it. Jumped straight in at Canada plus plus

*unless of course it’s in your interest to pretend they are not

<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12px;">A good troll garners responses and a very good one garners them from folk who know what they are doing and still respond</span>

I would tend to classify a good troll as one who gets a decent response for minimal effort. Which isnt the case here.

I think its more dunning-kruger.

<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">Still waiting THM.</span>

<span style="font-size: 12.8px;"> </span>

<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">I have clearly asked you to set out what the tories end aim is – without posting meaningless platitudes or claiming impossible things are possible – you seem unable to do this.  Why?  Is it because you don’t understand?  Or is it because as the tories themselves admit they have no agreed aim?</span>

Not at all. The answer are easy to find*

*Unless of course you can't provide your sources for anyone - that means your either not willing to share or it doesn't exist. Go on....

Are you a man?

@mike read TM’s 11 point letter, seems pretty clear to me. Broad free trade deal (our priorities services and manufacturing - we don’t care about agriculture for example as we can buy much cheaper elsewhere than from the EU), no budget contricutions, outside THE Single Market and THE Customs Union.

The EU want the UK to lay out it’s position in advanve so they can produce a series of “decrees” (negotiating guidelines) saying its not possible. They want the UK  To kake the first public move. So where are the EU’s objectives, their desired “end state” ?

Surprise surprise they’ve said nothing at all about that. All we know is they are desperate for the money and equally keen to kick difficult conversations about happens budget wise from 2021 onwards into the very very long grass