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To be fair on Davis' DExEU economists it's pretty hard to put a cash money value on unicorns
Jamba - you keep believing that now.
"Brexiter logic is a hilarious thing to behold"
If you ever needed to define the word oxymoron, 'brexiteer logic' would be difficult to beat. Hell, flat-earthers make more cogent arguments.
I thought this was quite a good article on the leaked impact reports:
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;"> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-assessment-leak-government-analysis-brexiteer-opinion-david-davis-eu-uk-theresa-may-a8185121.html
</span>Seemed pretty well reasoned and realistic (and from the brexit voting side!)
'Economists cannot predict accurately what is going to happen 6 or 12 months from now (as shown by Project Armageddon) so to suggest they can do so 5, 10 or 20 years from now is quite ridiculous.'
durr! don't you get it? these predictions are all wrong!
'Finally of course we are going to have a bespoke deal, we have ruled out all the off the shelf options the EU has proposed.'
durr! don't you get it? these predictions are all correct!
one can only imagine that if the report said something like 'worst case = this, best case = that', then it's entirely logical that 'brexiteer case = something much betterer than any of those, with a yacht and a pony to boot'
It's fairly obvious that the government is struggling with reality and seems incapable of acknowledging that it's current course of action will be damaging to the economy.
Meanwhile, people are becoming more entrenched in their divisions. It doesn't bode well for the future, national unity will be a pipe dream for decades at this rate.
NI Customs Union membership or a hard border policed by banshees and unicorns.
And how are the Tories predictions, based on models from the civil service i assume, about austerity going? How many years ago was it the deficit would be cleared?
Indeed. I think that it's fair to say that the current government is in the midst of a crisis of competence, as a result of an ideology first party doctrine. There's a dearth of technocrats when we need them the most.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42884610
So on the Report Publication thing, how can MP's make the right choices going forward if they are not provided with all the relevant information? Or is the plan really to keep people in the dark and then just out shouting surprise or something like that
or
Indeed. I think that it’s fair to say that the current government is in the midst of a crisis of competence, as a result of an ideology first party doctrine. There’s a dearth of technocrats when we need them the most.
Been a long time coming but Brexit, the NHS, the collapse of Carillion, the crisis at Capita. bail outs to Virgin Rail etc.
The dogma that has pervaded british poltics for the last 40+ years is falling apart. As for its replacement, chaos, civil war, division????? Now more than ever we need a one nation party willing to compromise and re think market fundamentalism. What is the plan for the left behind etc.
Just listening to that News Quiz someone posted a link to the other day. Oborne really is Jamby/THM, isn't he :shocked emoticon:
We've had forty years of an economic system that ran out of steam a decade ago. In fairness, that's not a uniquely British malaise, but common to most western economies as the quantitative easing required to ensure that our banking system remained afloat (and thus avoiding a liquidity crisis that would have put millions out of work), has created an asset bubble that has exacerbated the wealth gap. Meanwhile, tax policies common to New Labour and the Conservatives have ladled additional cost upon purchases at the expense of a progressive income tax. This has meant that it's become relatively easy for the ultra-wealthy to shift their assets and liquidity offshore and away from the Exchequer. Against the backdrop of increasing productivity and falling real wages, it's no surprise that resentment has been building.
Politics has become so partisan and tribal that it's extremely hard to find common ground. Both main parties are locked in a fight for survival and a toxic media has contributed hugely to ignorance and misconception about why we're in the current mess. I am concerned that we are only one step away from lurching into authoritarianism if we're not careful.
Meanwhile, the fact that so many myths about the EU are being debunked doesn't seem to make an difference to those who want to leave, despite the painful cost. Part of the problem is that most Leavers don't think that the economic cost will affect them.
So on the Report Publication thing, how can MP’s make the right choices going forward if they are not provided with all the relevant information?
Same story as the "39 sectoral impact reports" really - even the cabinet didn't read them and despite the House ordering their release they were still strangely delayed till after lots of the debates had already happened.
Not great for democracy, no matter which side of the Brexit wall you sit.
"Not great for democracy, no matter which side of the Brexit wall you sit."
Exactly!
PSA - pop over to the sticky forum thread. Aracer has kindly updated the killfile.
The Brexiteers of Flintshire must be delighted.
As all this thread (and I) have recently focused on has been the economic argument for (against) Brexit, this letter to a local paper was a chilling reminder of the utterly nonsensical reasons some (many, maybe most?) people voted Leave:
(I've had to transcribe this)
"I am 70 and so I was born after the war. I do, however, vaguely remember rationing, and I've seen the '50's through film, and lived as a teenager through the '60's. And I know people were happier, and men like my dad whistled while they worked!
Life was simple, and we appreciated more, or am I just looking back through rose-tinted spectacles tat we can't, for love or money, get anymore?
I voted to leave the EU and would do again. For those who moan, and think only in pounds and pence, I have some advice.
Go and see the film, Darkest Hour, followed by Dunkirk, and when you see how torturous a decision it was for Churchill to fight the likes of Hitler, rather than surrender, and how many young men, and common people were killed, in order to keep this Britain great, and ruled by a sovereign, and not a dictator, and be governed by our own parliament, you should realise Brexit is the only way to thank them for their sacrifices."
I had the misfortune to see some Sky BS/News yesterday where they had some reaction to the survey that Germany/germans feel the UK is still to obsessed with WWII and beating Germany, a great reasoned response saying how not many in Germany cares these days and how moving along and not being stuck in the past is what has helped the continent to get somewhere not feeling like you have to fight/battle for tiny little pointless victories.
The Old Brit went on to say how the UK was forced to fight for everything and that the Dunkirk/Waterloo/D-Day etc was what made us and we need to carry on.... pathetic really
perditus
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<p style="margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background: transparent; line-height: 1.2em;">The Brexiteers of Flintshire must be delighted.</p>
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Interesting reading.
Brexit really does just keep on giving doesn't it ?:-(
blog/2015/jun/09/waterloo-a-german-victory
Ah well.
Imagine I was able to edit my post and put a link about how there were more German speaking people than English on our side at Waterloo.
And so the report on the economic impacts of brexit cannot be shared with the proles, only MPs, in secret.
One can only speculate that the news is too bad to be shared with the great unwashed, lest they go forming opinions of thier own.
Whatever happens, we must not be allowed to interfere now. :/
"<span style="background-color: #eeeeee; color: #444444;">Go and see the film, Darkest Hour, followed by Dunkirk, and when you see how torturous a decision it was for Churchill to fight the likes of Hitler, rather than surrender, and how many young men, and common people were killed, in order to keep this Britain great, and ruled by a sovereign, and not a dictator, and be governed by our own parliament, you should realise Brexit is the only way to thank them for their sacrifices."</span>
and there was me thinking it was about supporting our allies in Europe.
Great post PJM.
The lat point you make, so true.
A lot of relatively poor people thinking immigration is why they have been left behind... Though it's easy to label a lot of Leavers as a bit dumb in reality I am angry that they were lied to so many times for so many years. If enough people blame the EU people will begin to believe it.
Yet when things go wrong they will be the FIRST to feel the economic pain. 🙁
I have NO time for the likes of Mogg/ Farage/BJ..etc when they have an almost religious Jihad going on where they would get us out of the EU at any cost. Any cost.
Hateful humans.
The tory scumbags need to realise that whatever power grab they do they will be handing on to Labour.
I am frigging praying for an early election Zippy...
Lets have a chat about Churchill, the other less mentioned side.
Black and Tans, Concentration Camps, Bengal Famine.
So easy to forget the parts of his character that don't fit the narrative.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42896996
And today the glorious leader decides to appease the nut jobs on the right of her party at the expense of the rest of us
Yeah, saw that earlier.
The EU have already started it's a total no go.
This could be the end of her. At last.
EU will just listen to her "fight" say no way. UK caves. As usual.
Tory brexiters go mental and kick her out.
As much as I despise her I'm not sure if I want her to go... Yet.
She is the ultimate ironic ally of Remainers in many ways due to how utterly incompetent she is. 😀
She is the ultimate ironic ally of Remainers in many ways due to how utterly incompetent she is. 😀
Not very ironic. She is a remainer.
^^
I know, but she can't actually be one openly! She has to "bring back control" of... Whatever.
If she is being so incompetent as an act to sabotage Brexit then it's truly Academy award material. 😀
Not very ironic. She is a remainer.
You know it's actually hard to tell what she is, perhaps she needs another reboot
kind of a bit like this
More
I guess the real question is if anyone else in the tory party has the guts to try to lead through this bit of a mess? There was a whole lot of ducking around the time of the last leadership battle.
A lot of relatively poor people thinking immigration is why they have been left behind
its true they blame immigrants for all their problems
TBH its a great trick the right wing low regulation tories have played to make sure foreigners get the blame for rapacious right wing politics rather than the authors of it, the very same authors these poor folk just gave more power to
the notion gove, boris or farage give a shot about the working class plight is as spurious as saying i GAS about the aristocracy
Locally I do know companies that only employ immigrants [ mainly because the employers flout employment law and immigrants tolerate it - reduced red tape essentially] What I never understand is why no one blames the employer for this.
Brexit wont make the working class at the heart of this union...look who is leading the charge into it.
If she is being so incompetent as an act to sabotage Brexit then it’s truly Academy award material.
Given her previous, I'm not convinced the imcompetence is an act.
i am not convinced she is competent enough pretend to be incompetent
Lol 😀
Lets have a chat about Churchill, the other less mentioned side.
Black and Tans, Concentration Camps, Bengal Famine.
So easy to forget the parts of his character that don’t fit the narrative.
And his decision as chancellor to take us back into the gold standard was catastrophic, precipitating an economic crisis, the general strike and defeat in the next general election.
Mays obviously incompetent, it's just that the rest of the Tories including the Brexiters are too terrified of embracing the Brexit shitshow to become PM.
Judging by Baker & Mogg repeatedly lying in parliament about civil servants being the enemies of Brexit, they are getting very desperate in their quest to shift the blame onto anyone but themselves.
Also of note every scumbag on Twitter declaring Finsbury park terrorist & murder Darren Osborne a hero seems to be a Brexit fan..... Smashing that stereotype
If it wasn't for Churchill all the people bitching about him would be in death camps. Maybe they have a point.
If it wasn’t for Churchill all the people bitching about him would be in death camps. Maybe they have a point.
Churchill was rather enthusiastic about death camps, IIRC.
Extraditions to the UK under EAWs now being delayed over Brexit
https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2018/0201/937559-extradition/
The Supreme Court has suggested that the Court of Justice should be asked if, in the context of Brexit, a requested state is required to decline to surrender a person to the UK under a European Arrest Warrant, whose surrender would otherwise be permitted, in all cases, in no cases or having regard to the particular circumstances of the case.
It also wants to ask the Court of Justice what criteria should a court assess to determine whether surrender is required, and whether or not the court in the requested state can postpone finalisation of a request to await greater clarity about what is to happen after the UK leaves the EU.
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If it wasn’t for Churchill all the people bitching about him would be in death camps. Maybe they have a point.
Hmmm. Churchill had his pluses and minuses but that statement was rather foolish on several levels.
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Can I just say I didn’t call 5th Elephant a div. that was the forum.
If it wasn’t for Churchill all the people bitching about him would be in death camps. Maybe they have a point.
Wow. He really was a one man army...if we ignore the American and the Russians and the etc, etc,
Actually it would have been good if he was a one man army, then his military decisions such as Gallipoli, and Narvik, and of course Europe's soft under belly Italy, wouldn't have cost so many lives due to his ineptitude.
Great orator, sh*t at everything else.
Perhaps May is trying to follow in his footsteps when it comes to Europe, only with the added disadvantage of being crap at speeches.