[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

And both called for, “a Brexit deal that allows uninterrupted trade in [b]goods and services”[/b]

Wonder why?

I don't think the governments of Ireland and Hungary are ruling out the UK (as a whole or NI alone) operating within the Single Market, or sticking with the Customs Union, are they?

No they are refuting Barnier hence the Macron retort

France wants to grab as much of the fin ser action so want different things

EU spilts emerging but the big boys will try to quash the little ones - not for the first time

Yeah, no support for Ireland at all from the larger EU members… [ rolls eyes ]

Don't panic; "David Davis, the Brexit Secretary, said the next round of EU negotiations would generate the same “public thunder and lightning” as the previous stage." have the grown ups been warned?

Yes they know that there will be even more noise

The EU showed it’s own hand re Ireland - after the noise, compromise. We have moved on without a resolution of the border question. Not that this was ever a surprise...

However the border will have to be resolved for any future trade deal with the EU and RoI will have a veto available

Yeah, no support for Ireland at all from the larger EU members… [ rolls eyes ]

Ireland almost ended up a vassal state thanks to the intransigence of the larger EU members post GFC. It sticks in the craw to see the patronising ‘support’ now on offer.

Ireland almost ended up a vassal state

😆

🙁

Did I spell something wrong or did you disagree?

I thought it was hilarious. You were writing it for comic effect weren't you?

Which bit was hilarious - is vassal state rhyming slang or something?

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-42574540/viewsnight-the-brexit-generation-is-dying-out ]Brexit voters dying at a faster rate than Remain voters[/url]

Interesting point - in just 2 years time - 2020, the Brexit majority will no longer exist...

That being the case there's simply no justification for carrying on with it - or at least not in a democracy where the will of the majority stands. The only argument for carrying on is an autocratic/dictatorial one.

It was always an important point - that the older generation were forcing on a younger generation something they didn't want but I'd not realised the electoral/demographic calculations meant the majority would disappear in such short timescales.

It's now very clear why May went for A50 so quickly and the Brexit camp are so panicked when they're challenged...

Might as well call the whole thing off - demographics are destiny after all.

brooess - Member

Interesting point - in just 2 years time - 2020, the Brexit majority will no longer exist...

Yep, but everyone else will have aged 2 years so a load of people will have turned 65 and instantly turned into brexiteers and tory voters

why May went for A50 so quickly

You don't need a degree in maths to work out the decay/death of the Tory Party and Brexit as a majority. As the Tory grandee Micheal Heseltine has pointed out the party is dying out at 2% per annum therefore 5 years from Mrs Mays election = 10% natural wastage - THM Jamba etc it's just a matter of time.......

And time is always on the side of youth....

I will support that younger generations fight to regain their rights from the *ed up right wing s heads you voted for 1950.

I would fight for everyone’s democratic rights (to be respected) and the right not to be lied to (pre and post referendum by either side)

And imagine young people having to te-experience the nightmare of 70s - still everyone has to learn from their mistakes

Flares? TRex? Edward Heath?

I would fight for everyone’s democratic rights (to be respected) and the right not to be lied to (pre and post referendum by either side)

And imagine young people having to te-experience the nightmare of 70s - still everyone has to learn from their mistakes

So you'd agree to a second referendum then, given that the populace are now a little more aware of the consequences?

So you'd agree to a second referendum then, given that the populace are a little more aware of the consequences?

Happy to agree to it - on the basis that it is put forward in an electoral manifesto and a government is voted into power to deliver it as an election pledge, just like last time.

Aware of the consequences??? Have you read this thread 😯

I sad the populace, not you specifically, calm down hun x

teamhurtmore - Member
I would fight for everyone’s democratic rights (to be respected)

This just spells out what a ridiculous referendum it was and situation this is. If the referendum had been for "Any Brexit at any cost", then yes people could complain about democracy.

Given that people could only have voted for their own interpretation of Brexit and a significant proportion of those are not going to get what they thought they were voting for.....how can you complain about democracy being threatened because some people want to stop Brexit yet you don't give a stuff if your interpretation of Brexit isn't being delivered or if that non-delivery would change your opinion?

Given that people could only have voted for their own interpretation of Brexit

Really?!? How odd....

teamhurtmore - Member

Given that people could only have voted for their own interpretation of Brexit

Really?!? How odd....

Thanks for that....very informative.

Pleasure - keeping in the spirit

[quote=kelvin ]I have "Feed… the… troll…" to the tune of the Band Aid single playing in my head for some reason…

Happy to agree to it

given that the populace are now a little more aware of the consequences?

If the populace are more aware (I don't think they actually are) then the polls would suggest that they don't care about the consequences or are happy with them for the return they are getting. Is that what you think?

We’ve had Strictly, Jungle and whatever the singing one is called to vote on.

1,192 pages on this, and it’s still as silly as ever.

Very early on it was predicted that Brexit would be watered down so much it wouldn’t really be Brexit.

The Remainers on here still have their totally delusional ideation that they are somehow intellectually superior than anybody with a different opinion - and the Brexiteers appear unaware the Brexit they voted for simply isn’t going to happen.

Democracy is dead. We don’t get to decide on the real important issues.

I’m certainly intellectually superior to most of the leavers I know and more importantly still alive.

polls would suggest that they don't care about the consequences or are happy with them for the return they are getting. Is that what you think?

I think there is still a significant portion of people who don't care about the consequences, or simply still don't understand, however, I think enough people have now actually woken up and smelled the coffee now.

They didn't vote for failing industry, failing health and social care systems, rising poverty and crime, lack of police resources and diminished opportunities for their children.

They didn't vote for failing industry, failing health and social care systems and diminished opportunities for their children.

Havent they already witnessed this inside the EU?

mooman, it's easy for the brexiters to get the brexit they want. They just have to explain in detail whats going to happen and how. Like the Irish border for example. Saying "let's leave" and then bleating about how it isn't working our right is like saying "let's have a unicorn" without working out how to create one.

[quote=ninfan ]Havent they already witnessed this inside the EU?

Sure, because UK Tory governments are quite capable of providing that despite the EU

zippykona - Member
I’m certainly intellectually superior to most of the leavers I know and more importantly still alive.

Ummm ... so you regard yourself intellectually superior to those ones who are alive - or those dead?

mattyfez - Member

They didn't vote for failing industry, failing health and social care systems, rising poverty and crime, lack of police resources and diminished opportunities for their children.

They certainly didn`t. Those things have been failing/rising/diminishing significantly for the last couple of decades.

thecaptain - Member
mooman, it's easy for the brexiters to get the brexit they want. They just have to explain in detail whats going to happen and how. Like the Irish border for example. Saying "let's leave" and then bleating about how it isn't working our right is like saying "let's have a unicorn" without working out how to create one.

On the flip-side ... the Remainers recognised there was need to reform the EU ... they too had no plan on how to do it, so lack of plans are something both camps have in common.
And the Remainers Unicorn slur is similar to the Magic-money tree they spoke of too ... the Magic-money tree that appeared to pay for the Pro-Remainer to stay in power.

Democracy is dead.

True. There has been a referendum and Parliamentary votes and moaners reject the result of both. Undemocracy is thriving

They didn't vote for failing industry, failing health and social care systems, rising poverty and crime, lack of police resources and diminished opportunities for their children

Of which one, leaving aside the false ones, might be related to the decision to end membership of the EU. Still exaggeration is key....

THM still struggling with the concept of democracy. See if you can spot where the referendum fell down - for a clue see 2 and 3 below.

Five Critieria for A Democratic Process ( R Dahl)

process of making binding decisions

Demos | kratia
people | rule by

1) Inclusion
“The Demos” = “all adult members except transients and persons proved to be mentally defective.”

2) Control of the Agenda
“The demos must have the exclusive opportunity to decide how matters are to be placed on the agenda for discussion and voting.”

3) Enlightened Understanding
-“citizens ought to have adequate and equal opportunities for discovering and validating the choice on the matter to be decided that would best serve the citizen's interests.”

4) Effective Participation
-“citizens ought to have an adequate and equal opportunity, for expressing their preferences as to the final outcome.”

5) Voting Equality at the Decisive Stage
“At the decisive stage, each citizen must be able to express a choice that will be counted as equal in weight to the choice expressed by any other citizen.”

Nope

Five Critieria for A Democratic Process ( R Dahl)

Not as good as James and the Giant Peach.

May called A50 9 months later than Corbyn wanted to

With MEP elections in May 2019 it made total sense to be out by then, hence Mach-ish 2017 is the obvious timing

Whatever the timing A50 vote in Parliament was a landslide

Tony Blair the UK’s least popular and successful poltican ? Lead Remainiac who got the appropriate treatment on R4 Today Programme

Mismanaged economy creating largest ever bust in living memory via spectator mis-regulation of financial services

Invaded Iraq

Signed Lisbon Treaty

Remainers recognised there was need to reform the EU

Of course, but we can hardly reform it if we leave, as we will have zero influence in how the EU operates.

Undemocracy is thriving