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We know, and you refuse to accept there might be a way to be park of the eu and the world which for such a globally focused individual doesn't really make much sense. I assume at work you also like the challenge of trying to strike hard deals as the underdog.
You retire to a country to spend your money there having already earnt it. You work somewhere with positive prospects. Very different criteria. Work in a city, retire to the country is the logic.
First choice would be Switzerland but too expensive to spend 12 months a year there, missed the boat not going there 15 years ago. Portugal has tax advantages and no real requirement to spend much time there (as two good friends have done). France you can be there 180 days a year and not be tax resident (my understanding)
so tying yourself to a decling continent then
Mike we are the 5th richest country in the world with an open minded approach to trade. We are a massive net buyer. We are a great customer. We do not negotiate from a position of weakness, quite the contrary. Aussies and Kiwis are very keen to do a deal with us as we will be such a good customer.
Follow the money Mike. We have it, we are the customer
The EU tries to play the “never mind the quality feel the width” argument but its a block about to go from 500 million to 435 million people and lose its second most prosperous economy. Its hugely devalued. Look at those 435 million in germs of their pirchasing power, factor in youth unemployment at 25% in France and 30% in Spain, Italy with no real term growth for nearly 20 years. Then add in all the Eastern European states where wages and spenig power are so much lower.
Every trade deal we sign means less business for the EU, they’ll be keen to tie us in / delay us for as long as possible. We are a very very good customer.
Lol every deal we sign will be after significant negotiations which all take time (Oz China was 10 years)
Given we already import from Asia, Africa, South America and Oceania will the balance of trade shift that much?
Why would anyone want to reduce their trading with the 2nd largest economy in the world (which was on awesome terms) unless its for spite.
I see no logical reason to tie ourselves into a decling continent for a second longer.
Well, many in my extended family are very much "tied" to the continent, as they grew up there… is the same not true of yours?
Every trade deal we sign means less business for the EU,
Well, assuming the first trade deals we sign will be seeking to replicate those we lose on leaving the customs union etc, does that mean the EU will gain more business in the gap between us losing and replacing deals?
Every trade deal we sign means less business for the EU, they’ll be keen to tie us in / delay us for as long as possible. We are a very very good customer.
You really do just write the first thing that comes into your head don't you.
Follow the money Mike. We have it, we are the customer
That is buying not selling. Both are needed for trade.
We will accept stuff on low tariff rates in order to keep selling stuff from here?
Remember you told us tariffs were going to fund a lot of other things before.
jambalaya - MemberMike we are the 5th richest country in the world
I think we recently slipped down to 6th, just behind France.
http://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPD@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD
We are Leaving the EU against the wishes of the people of the UK.
Of course we are.
Glad you agree THM. It's still a very close thing though. Will the narrow majority in favour of staying in the EU increase in 2018? I think it's likely, but not a sure thing.
You will get over it eventually
You might even move on
Not that it matters. Brexit is happening.
Is that the chorus or verse 2 or maybe you are the STW Poet 😉
In the meantime, stand up for your rights, fight for what is important to you and be part of shaping what is to come.
Be silent, nod and bow to your betters if you want but then you will just have to accept what others want for you.
You need to move on THM. People voted for Brexit (narrowly) quite a long time ago. They are now narrowly in favour of staying in the EU. What happens in 2018 depends greatly on what the government finally decides the plan is for our future arrangements.
true however so is the reverse which you never seeThe EU tries to play the “never mind the quality feel the width” argument but its a block about to go from 500 million to 435 million people and lose its second most prosperous economy. Its hugely devalued.
The UK tries to play the “cake and eat it” argument but its a block about to go from 500 million to 65 million people and lose the most prosperous trading block to whom it exports 44% of its goods. Its hugely devalued.
You only ever see it as bad for them when its bad for both of is for the same reasons you realise.
Mike we are the 5th richest country in the world
How did we get there?
People voted for Brexit
Glad you have changed your tune. They did didn’t they. Inconvenient truths and all that.
Both major parties are committed to respecting the result. The undemocratic one that isn’t had very little support in the subsequent democratic vote. More inconvenience.
What tune?
The referendum showed that (narrowly) more voters chose Leave over Remain, back in 2016. More is now known. (Narrowly) more people now want to remain than leave. 2018 could see that move either way. Leaving the EU without majority support is a likely future, but not a democratic one.
In my opinion there is no such thing as a citizen of Europe.
I am happy to be an exception to your opinion and wait for a hospital bed next to the Eastern European murderer, because Jambalaya, as Jessie J would sing Life's not all about the price tag. ka ching ka ching.
[whistle out of tune] We are Leaving the EU against the wishes of the people of the UK [whistle out of tune]
Referendum
Parliamentary vote
GE with Tories and Labour committed to respecting the vote
And the undemocrats moan on.
So those votes represent what "the people" want to now happen?
And you know what "the people" will want to happen in 12 months time?
Democracy hasn't stopped.
It is not undemocratic to call for a change.
It is not undemocratic to call for a change with minority support.
It is not undemocratic to call for a change with majority support.
Democracy has not stopped.
It has for you
You are now pretending that polls are more important than genuine democratic processes
Sad. Not that it matters. Brexit is happening
I am claiming no such thing.
Polls are just indicators, not a national vote.
Why else would I want a national vote between two real options? Once the alternative to EU membership has a single form that people can choose or reject?
Debate and disagreement are many things but the end of democracy they are not, rather they are the bedrock of it.
Brexit is happening. Brexit should not be happening. Quite a few people agree. Probably more agree than disagree. Maybe. Let's see how things move in 2018. It could shift either way once the government decide on a plan as regards our new arrangements, and make them public.
Brexit should not be happening. Quite a few people agree. Probably more agree than disagree
Should have got off their arses and voted against it then, shouldn’t they?
It is not undemocratic to call for a change.
It is not undemocratic to call for a change with minority support.
It is not undemocratic to call for a change with majority support.
As previously pointed out, the referendum was a manifesto commitment and the Cameron government was elected on a pledge to hold it and respect the result. The Current government was, similarity, elected on a pledge to follow it through t9 its conclusion.
You are free, absolutley free, to call for another referendum - you just have to wait until the government changes and elect the one offering you that commitment.
They will.
They will.
You thought that last time 😆
No, I thought Leave would win.
you just have to wait until the government changes and elect the one offering you that commitment.
No, I can call for the current government to change its course. As governments often do when public opinion moves, or events occur that make it wise to do so. Let's see what 2018 brings... ...democracy isn't a five yearly, or even "once in a generation" vote… it keeps going, even between votes.
Kelvin - welcome to the body o’ the Kirk.
THM - you’d do well to listen to Kelvin even if you disagree.
Ninfan - 😆 welome to the past. No need for a third referendum - we shouldn’t have had the first two. Anti-democratic they are.
PS - athgray is also entering the body o’ the Kirk I think
I’m loving how Brexit is heading this week.
Here’s to remaining - in line with the wishes of the British people of course. Democracy never sleeps.
[quote=ninfan ]The Current government was, similarity, elected on a pledge to follow it through t9 its conclusion.
Yes, that's definitely why Mark Field was elected, because the government pledged to go through with Brexit - clearly it must have been something his constituents supported strongly. Democracy in action.
See also Julian Sturdy. Brexy campaigner in a remain voting area. We should probably discount his vote in parliament on Ninfan’s rules.
Of course Ninfan’s rules are cobblers.
jambalayaIn my opinion there is no such thing as a citizen of Europe.
I disagree with pretty much everything you post regarding Brexit but that one stands out.
I class myself as a British European. To divide it down further would be like starting I am Kentish. I am but I'm also British and European.
If I were ever taken to tasl as to how I can feel European too I think I would just look at the questioner with incredulity.
I and millions in this country and the other member states are quite at peace being a citizen of Europe thank you very much.
jambalaya
In my opinion there is no such thing as a citizen of Europe.
Says the man picking which european country he wants to spend his retirement in....
Migration for those with cash to do it.
Being able to move freely and work through the EU makes us all citizens of europe, migration enhances places and exposes people to a much wider culture and experiences (except the privileged and well off).
Ridiculously FoM within the EU is a great function of a free market as it allows people to flow to where they are required. The brexit idea has nothing to do with the whole world being equal in a good way it's about making it harder for everyone.
Jambalaya
I see no logical reason to tie ourselves into a decling continent for a second longer.
The free movement of people and how that has expanded in the last 10-12 years is how I measure EU ascendancy. Mike and poop sum it up well. People's lives across Europe are more intertwined than even 20 years ago. I think it harbours a greater sense of empathy for others within it's borders. I could not imagine another Srebrenica ever happening again within the EU. If we broke apart, gazed at our feet, and looked up occasionally at those across our closest borders with suspicion then I could see it happening again.
That would be REAL decline, not whether the dividend is down 20% on my Italian olive oil investment.
Like I said. When the older generation has left this mortal coil, Brexit WILL be shown as the the abhorrent scab that it is.
I am a supporter of FoM 100%, even though it exists more in theory that practice. And many only play lip service to the idea.
And I agree with the positives you highlight that membership of the EU has given us. But these positives are not exclusive to membership of the EU as other neighbouring nations have shown. Only those who truly graze at their feet would propose such a deterministic outcome. It's our choice if we want to make Brexshit a scab or a positive development.
Since it IS going to happen I prefer the latter. Happens to be the democratic choice too, which helps.
democracy isn't a five yearly,
It's not even a five second thing for remoaners. They have refused to respect democracy from the start. As IGM notes, they should stop and listen to why people voted the way they did and think about it.
Free movement could be maintained by following the Norwegian model for example, but we both know that will never fly.
To me this would be the best we could achieve, but is still worse than what we have and makes a mockery of 'taking back control'.
I have little doubt that, in practice, the ability of UK and EU citizens to move across the region will be hardly altered (beyond some basic admin. ). As I prepare for the new world and actually study the real rather than the doomsdayer outcomes, it becomes clearer that this is true for most aspects of post EU membership life. Human beings are remarkably adaptable. We will show this again - well most of us.
I don't want a Norwegian model as that does not suit our position BTW. Stupid that the EU are suggesting it, but they will play more games in R2 before belatedly agreeing a compromise.
THM - one thing I’ve been meaning just to note to you for a bit are two comments you have made previously. Forgive me if I paraphrase them slightly imprecisely.
They were:
Business leads, politicians follow.
Economics always trumps politics.
Now these might be aspirations and might even be true on occasion, but Brexit is showing firstly on the UK side and possibly on the EU side that they ain’t always true.
Business didn’t want Brexit. Business probably didn’t want the referendum.
Economics would have had us remain - even after the vote.
And you’ve just suggested that the red, white and blue Norwegian model “wouldn’t suit our position” - allowing politics to lead again.
Maybe in a sane world your two statements would be correct - but the world is not a sane and rational place and never was.
Of course the more interesting story about our future is automisation, the change in the jobs market, the change in consumer base that result from the two above and the universal basic income.
I suspect there are no answers in that at present but just understanding the questions is interesting.
Both are always true. The only thing that varies is the timing.
Brexshit is a great example. Businesses are already adapting and preparing and realising that the world in not suddenly going to end. Note recent CBI forecasts etc. Few politicians are demonstrating such dexterity apart from, ironically, the remainer who is leading the process.
Sorry, don't understand your Norway point. That's just a bluff anyway. Both sides know that a more comprehensive FTA is required but they have political audiences and media to satisfy. So the games will continue
Tbc, point 2 needs "in the end". Politics can "trump" economics in the short run but "in the end".... You know the rest!!
. It's our choice if we want to make Brexshit a scab or a positive development.
You are suggesting that Brexit can be better that what we already have. Genuinely, how do you think it can be positive development?
Businesses are already adapting and preparing and realising that the world in not suddenly going to end.
Is a great example of business following.
Both sides... have political audiences and media to satisfy.
Again politics being allowed to lead.
Whether or not it is the right solution, rejecting it for a political position is not business leading.
I happily agree it’s not doomsday. But then it never was.
We’re just going to see a culturally and financially slightly poorer Britain than we would have by remaining. And ironically with less control because like it or not the standards set by Europe will be de facto standards in Britain.
There will be good days and bad - but a vote for Brexit was a vote against Britain.
THM.
So I can adapt please tell me exactly how much a kilo of chocolate that costs £10 now will cost once we leave.
Whether I renew my lease or close my shop depends on that number.
Thanks.
Aadapting and leading not following
Media sideshow are just that. Sideshows not leading. Playing to historical audiences and mindsets while business will have already moved on. We have, we know the scenarios and what needs to be done. We are ready 15-18 months in advance. That's what business do, they adapt and succeed or moan and fail. Comes down to choices that everyone can make.