[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Thm that would be nice on an Athena motivational poster but I fear demonstrates a lack of reality regarding the lives of a awful lot of people in the uk. Do people on minimum wage have any meaningful options they can choose to mitigate the effects of brexit? Those on benefits, public service employees, etc?

Slightly yes. We are in a later phase in the current cycle. We have not experienced the doomsday that was predicted so far. Do you want some trumpesque tax cuts??

Oddly those who really care should be pleased about that. Much better that wishing bad outcomes on others -

Is that an uncaring remoaner shocker 😉 ?

Do you want some trumpesque tax cuts??

I’m not a very pleasant person. 8)

Everyone is a decision maker, every day.

With regards Brexit?

Please explain that!

They’ve been trying to wreck my children’s prospects for an unachievable dream of something that never was.

I would suggest that a hell of a lot of Brexit voters would point the finger at those who voted remain in the same way. How many young peoples jobs have been exported abroad over the past few decades in order to build the dream of a Federal Europe?

Do people on minimum wage have any meaningful options they can choose to mitigate the effects of brexit? Those on benefits, public service employees, etc?

What meaningful options did they have to mitigate the effects of immigration/freedom of movement (research says this negatively affected them disproportionately, even if the aggregate effect of immigration as a totality was (fiscally) beneficial)

Thanks THM "democracy an inconvenient fact" we only have to follow through with brexfarce if the Democratic will to do so remains , if the Democratic mood changes we can abandon the idea. So given you agree Brexit is a bad thing you should applaud those who love their country enough to fight against it , not constantly whine about them just because you have surrendered the fight.

if the Democratic will to do so remains

You mean something like having elected a government on the manifesto pledge to complete the process?

Followed by overwhelming Parliamentary vote

[quote=ninfan ]I would suggest that a hell of a lot of Brexit voters would point the finger at those who voted remain in the same way. How many young peoples jobs have been exported abroad over the past few decades in order to build the dream of a Federal Europe?

They might, but they'd be wrong. Which of course you know. How many young people have had jobs created by membership of the EU - which everybody agrees was of net economic benefit to the UK?

Because of course we know that to Brexiteers democracy is a one time only thing, and it's not possible to have a future vote which might go differently.

Given THM is so disappointed by the lack of anybody engaging with his parliamentary vote thing he's mentioned it 3 times now, I'll put him out of his misery - it's BS.

One is better than zero a racer (especially as you guys can’t cope with even one)

Remoaners - plebs are too thick to vote; ignore the fact we lost; keep voting ‘til we win; then stop at the democratic (sic) decision. Spoken in true EU fashion with Ode to Joy playing in the background

One of my fears is that the people of hate have got the bit between their teeth.
They live in a perpetual state of loathing. They NEED to hate something.
What or who will be next?
Capital punishment is the obvious thing which the hate press will demand for “ the hard working British taxpayer” to have a vote on.
Then our children will need protecting from homosexuals , then somewhere on the list nuns walking orphans through the woods will need protecting from hooligans on mountain bikes. I’m sure THM is preparing for this by taking up knitting instead.
We have seen what Europeans working together can achieve instead of fighting each other. The U.S became the worlds biggest super power. Just because someone is called Lamansky it doesn’t make him any less american.
I want a brighter future where we pool our resources and realise our full potential. What would a plucky British bulldog large hadron collider look like? What is the uk space industry ever going to achieve on its own?
All we are going to do is start petty bickering and waste precious time to appease a foreign newspaper baron.

How many young peoples jobs have been exported abroad over the past few decades in order to build the dream of a Federal Europe?

It's far more complex than that, but you are ignoring the complexity cos it's suits your emotive position.

Re multiple referendums, I have been simply trying to draw attention to the ridiculousness of sticking like glue to the outcome of the first one without any planning or thought.

If a corporate employee acted like this they'd be fired. Why do we tolerate this lack of competence from our government?

One is better than zero a racer

No. Zero ill concieved disastrous referendum is better than one.

The Conservatives set out their ultimate stance on energy in one key sentence:

‘Above all, we believe that energy policy should be focused on outcomes rather than the means by which we reach our objectives. So, after we have left the European Union, we will form our energy policy based not on the way energy is generated but on the ends we desire.’

In other words, the amount of energy produced, and the profit arising from it, is more important than reducing environmental impact. Like Labour’s, Conservative energy policy centres mainly on nuclear and gas, but with a few key differences, such as its insistence on the benefits of fracking. The manifesto talks a lot about nuclear, oil and gas in terms of ‘protect[ing] our critical national infrastructure.’

Meanwhile in Germany

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/germany-energy-consumer-christmas-paid-supply-demand-outstrip-renewables-wind-solar-a8129716.html ]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/germany-energy-consumer-christmas-paid-supply-demand-outstrip-renewables-wind-solar-a8129716.html[/url]

One of my fears is that the people of hate have got the bit between their teeth.
They live in a perpetual state of loathing. They NEED to hate something.
What or who will be next?

Hmm, interesting question... let’s flip back a page or two shall we?

Everyone who voted out can * right off you ignorant *.

QED

[s]Remoaners [/s] [b][i]Brexies[/b][/i]- plebs are too thick to [b][i]be trusted to [/b][/i]vote [b][i]the same way again[/b][/i]; ignore the fact we lost; keep voting ‘til we win [b][i](remember we held the second referendum in 2016, not the first) [/b][/i]; then stop at the democratic (sic) decision.

FTFY THM. you wouldn’t want to get your facts wrong now would you. 😉

we held the second referendum in 2016, not the first

Nope, we’ve only ever held one referendum on EU membership

Ninfan - I used to be a fairly chilled out individual. Even after the 2016 referendum I was interested in finding a solution that met the desires of both the Brexies and those of us who choose to remain in the EU. I posted on here to that effect.
However the Brexies have rejected everything that was good about this country - compromise, tolerance, a belief in moving forward - and have replaced it with general nastiness (from Enemies of the People, to Brexit Mutineers).
And eventually it is difficult not to suggest fighting fire with fire.
People like you, or at least your persona on here, and your behaviour have led me to think that wishing harm on Brexies isn’t such a bad thing.

ninfan - Member

we held the second referendum in 2016, not the first

Nope, we’ve only ever held one referendum on EU membership

Close enough Brexy-boy

Hmm, interesting question... let’s flip back a page or two shall we?

Everyone who voted out can * right off you ignorant *.
QED

Even after the 2016 referendum I was interested in finding a solution that met the desires of both the Brexies and those of us who choose to remain in the EU.

Yeah, I’ve met a few like you... they propose a “compromise” that results in us not actually leaving the EU (the one thing people actually voted for) but essentially involves everyone but them giving ground, by conflating it with vague promises on all sorts of conflated issues that they “think” mattered to leave voters.

Edit Of course, had it been 48/52 the other way, I’m sure you would have been full of all sorts of proposals for compromise that ‘took account of the feelings of those who voted to leave’, and would have been all for changes in EU immigration policy, trade deals etc.

However the Brexies have rejected everything that was good about this country...[ironic link to]....People like you, or at least your persona on here, and your behaviour have led me to think that wishing harm on Brexies isn’t such a bad thing.

Wow ^2 😯

Step away from the hyperbole and BS and look at what is actually happening, Then you can relax and avoid such unpleasant mists.

well for a start it may have prompted some discussion in westminster on whether or not they should use the tools they had at hand, rather than pass the buck and blame the EU every sodding time, eh? but doing that was just too easy. 🙄

ninfan - Member

Even after the 2016 referendum I was interested in finding a solution that met the desires of both the Brexies and those of us who choose to remain in the EU.

Yeah, I’ve met a few like you... they propose a “compromise” that results in us not actually leaving the EU (the one thing people actually voted for)

Isn't this basically what our government has now signed up for though(*)? We're not actually leaving the EU, just going to pay them more money and have less control over what it does.

(*) Unless we can invent a magical pixie-powered border scheme.

Yeah, I’ve met a few like you

Probably around 16,000,000 Brexy-boy.

Anyway I’ll compromise on passport colour as it seems to mean a lot to some people.
What you giving in return, or are you all take?

on whether or not they should use the tools they had at hand, rather than pass the buck and blame the EU every sodding time, eh? but doing that was just too easy.

Repeated governments, of all political hues, had failed to do so. I [i]suggest[/i] that a fair proportion of leave voters voted not on the EU that they had today, but the one that they know that we were irreversibly gravitating towards, and that (despite repeated promises otherwise, see for example Maastricht and Lisbon treaties) the proletariat would never get to vote on.

We're not actually leaving the EU, just going to pay them more money and have less control over what it does.

Probably around 16,000,000 Brexy-boy.

Shame you couldn5 convince another million, isn’t it 😉

THM - what can I say? I’ve put up with the Brexies for long enough. It’s time we got rid of them.
If only we’d kept the colonies we could reinstate transportation. 😉

Ninfan

It’s ironic really, all the remainders spend a year whining on apoplecticcally about Hard v Soft Brexit, then when they are presented with the chance of a soft Brexit, start whining that that’s not really Brexit at all.

Not sure about ironic, but it's very confusing.

We voted to leave the EU.

And after a year of negotiations by David Davis, we agreed to basically stay in the EU but pay more money for less influence.

I'm still struggling to understand how anyone on either side of the divide thinks this is a good idea.

I can only assume that there's something I've missed. But maybe Brexies really are that easy to fool.

by conflating it with vague promises on all sorts of conflated issues that they “think” mattered to leave voters.

I think that many leavers do have real issues, and these need tackling.

Where we differ is the idea that leaving the EU will actually help. I think it will make matters worse. I work in an industry with a skills shortage. Dissuading skilled workers from coming will not help this, but it will make wholesale outsourcing more necessary, which will make the skills gap worse.

And yes, there might be visas available, but that itself along with the political and social climate will harm skilled immigration. It isn't all Polish plumbers. Although going by the tradesman thread we seem to have a genuine shortage of plumbers so surely the Poles are needed...

It’s the grass-roots football/training academy argument though, isn’t it?

Maybe that industry could put some effort into securing its own future by training people? For the past decade it’s been cheaper and easier for them to just buy it in from abroad rather than build the next generation.

Well Ninfan that's called capitalism/free-market economies.

Mol. Remoaners should tackle their own issues first: lying about UK economic progress and prospects; lying about rights of EU citizens and causing unnecessary stress simply to achieve their minority, undemocratic aims; wishing harm on fellow citizens simply because they have different opinions; abusing democracy and rights; falsely attributing issues/challenges to Brexshit; grossly exaggerating developments and undermining UK’s position; playing passive victims (woe is me, if I return to UK my safety is at risk and similar BS) and refusing to look forward.

Then they can worry about the Brexshiteers. Decisions they can make every day 😉

Shame you couldn5 convince another million, isn’t it

Ahh, poor Brexy-boy. Your argumentative talents are failing you tonight.

Good luck with that one over the next year or so.

He’s already won. Why should he worry??

He’s correct too. We failed to present a compelling vision for membership of Europe. We almost did the same with the little Indy thing and all their lies and didn’t learn the lesson from those errors. Big mistake. Repeating them twice was stupid. We should look to ourselves first. We lost. We are responsible.

Trying to subsequently out-BS the Brexshiteers makes remoaners worse than them

Tide’s turned THM.

Stick your head in the sand if you must.

Why should a Brexy worry? Well for most of them because they won.

The sensible predictions are coming true (I accept there were some outlandish ones - but I hear those most often from Brexies), and the strong Brexy areas will be hit hardest.

Around 15% GDP underperformance over a 20 year period was it? Or 20% over 15%? I cant be bothered checking.

I’d say 15 months before we start paying for our Brexy friends stupidity, we’re pretty much on for that.

No thanks I have no interest in joining the remoaner camp

I prefer forward looking Democrats who can accept their own responsibilities

Are you do want to come and join me!

Well I never.

lying about UK economic progress and prospects; lying about rights of EU citizens and causing unnecessary stress simply to achieve their minority, undemocratic aims; wishing harm on fellow citizens simply because they have different opinions; abusing democracy and rights; falsely attributing issues/challenges to Brexshit; grossly exaggerating developments and undermining UK’s position; playing passive victims (woe is me, if I return to UK my safety is at risk and similar BS) and refusing to look forward.

Isn't that largely how leave swung the referendum?

Why should I 'look forward' to a bleaker future with the rights, privileges and most importantly the protections that I currently enjoy having been taken away from me by people who themselves will either distance themselves from those consequences or point blank won't take responsibility for them or offer any solutions to ameliorate the inevitable pending shitstorm. You bang on about democracy and rights without the faintest grasp of those concepts which put you in the head-banger camp as far as I am concerned i.e. dangerous.

Around 15% GDP underperformance over a 20 year period was it? Or 20% over 15%? I cant be bothered checking.

Obviously not. As that sounds more like a reason for leaving the EU than remaining. QED

X-post edit. No - I wish no harm on people simply for holding different views nor do I want to ‘get rid of them’x That’s very unpleasant.

I prefer forward looking Democrats who can accept their own responsibilities

Empty words from a complete time waster.

Hope you're having a good break.

trouble is non of that quote from THM is true

Its all going pretty much as predicted. Its an economic disaster and this is only the beginning.

Thank you Perdy. Good luck with the world of no rights, privileges and protection BTW.

(Don’t worry. When you wake up they will still be there but the bogey men will not)

I have an old aunt who said just before the vote "what was the point of winning the war if we were going to put the Germans in charge in the end anyway?"

Was this a common feeling amongst the voters? (Old or otherwise)