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That’s the kinder, gentler politics for you
Everyone is a Tory now. We get that Rone.
So you release a tweet saying you’ve sent a letter, then....
Nothing...
Silence...
And that’s how you convince everyone you’d make a great PM, is it?
Serious question for the fanbois..,
You think that’s the way to get people onside? Seriously?
Slag Jo Swinson off all you like, at least she’s out there saying something! Doing interviews. Engaging with people.
Where’s Jeremy?
In the same bunker he’s been hiding in for the last two years, no doubt.
Absolutely ****ing useless!
He’s a leader and future PM like I’m a future Tour de France winner
Probably best on the other thread Binners. Maybe. Tricky.
They should do a 6-week time-wasting knock-out leadership contest like the Tories did, that'd be good.
Slag Jo Swinson off all you like, at least she’s out there saying something! Doing interviews. Engaging with people.
Given the shambles she's presided over the last 24 hours I'd say she could do with following Corbyn's example. A month or so ago they were the anti-brexit vanguard, so it's quite an achievement that #nodeallibdems is now trending on twitter.
Where’s Jeremy?
I worry about your addiction to Corbyn. It's like you can't go a few days if he's not on the telly (which he was this morning BTW). Try youtube, I bet there's loads of videos on there of him speaking and doing interviews to temper the cravings.
Anyone fancy answering the question?
How you convince everyone that you’re the answer, that you, as PM, can provide the leadership the country needs in a time of crisis, by...
Tweeting that you’ve sent a letter, then disappearing?
I believe Barack Obama used to use a similar technique
Absolutely ****ing useless!
And this comes after he proposed doing exactly what you wanted. Which says far more about you than Corbyn.
...In his usual quarter-arsed way
You think this is the way to go about doing it? Via a letter and a tweet?
That that shows leadership?
The leadership needed when suggesting they should make you PM? That you should be the man to lead a government of national unity in a time of crisis...
A letter and a tweet?
... then nothing...
Oh don't worry, I wasn't expecting you to ever admit that you got something wrong.
So you think this shows genuine leadership?
The leadership required to lead the country during its most difficult period since the war?
With a letter and a tweet?
A yes or no answer will do?
Oh... just checked his twitter and he’s back onto tweeting about rogue landlords today. It’ll be back to rural bus services tomorrow, no doubt
He’s all over this whole Brexit/VONC/government of national unity thing!
Boris must be absolutely shitting himself!
I think you have just proven there BInners that there is nothing he could do that would satisfy you.
I think you have just proven there BInners that there is nothing he could do that would satisfy you.
Has anyone established what Corbyn did to Binners? Did he run over their dog or something. This level of hatred has got to have a deep personal reason for it.
Further developments quoted in the press. Swinson is now completely isolated and has had to row back a fair chunk on her initial position.
What she has shown here is how poor a politician she really is and how inflexible in her thinking.
Don't forget the Guardian is a lib dem supporting paper.
I worry at times that some of the ‘people’ on here are actually bots. Repeatedly posting outrageous, somewhat bizarre messages.
My objection to Corbyn is quite simple
He’s spent the last 4 years being the Tory’s ‘get out of jail free’ card
Today is just more of the same.
Arriving at a decision 6 months too late, with all the enthusiasm and energy of a teenager being told to tidy their room.
I worry at times that some of the ‘people’ on here are actually bots. Repeatedly posting outrageous, somewhat bizarre messages.
🤣
Arriving at a decision 6 months too late
I’m not sure how you are always so certain about everything. If he had sent the same letter 6 months ago, it would have been far less likely to succeed imho. It would only appear to have any chance now, due to the desperate lack of time.
Problem is Binners what you say is simply wrong. He has made numerous attempts to stop a hard or no deal brexit - most of which have been unsuccessful due to his own party.
Given that your favoured candiadate for the labour leadership are pro brexit and made disgraceful racist plays its really hard to see much truth in what yo claim
To go back to Swinson - I think a part of her reason for immediately opposing Corbyns plan is that she is terrified of an election knowing all those mps who crossed the floor to join her will lose their seats adn she probably will as well
I worry at times that some of the ‘people’ on here are actually bots.
This Mark Guy on Twitter is probably a bot, but his/its joke summed up the last two days of politics perfectly for me…
https://twitter.com/markmcan/status/1162117632339906561?s=21
all those mps who crossed the floor to join her will lose their seats
You make it sound like there were loads…! And I don’t think that’s the calculation at all. It is more that in many seats where they hope to take seats off the Conservatives, if they can be painted as having made Corbyn PM, they simply will not get the votes they need. The “vote LibDem and get Corbyn’s Labour” message can really hurt them. Supporting any Labour MP to be PM, even for a short time, will hurt them… but there is extra toxicity to Corbyn with many voters well beyond him being part of the Labour movement.
Binners you should admit that you’ve chosen to back the wrong party. One that would prefer no deal and Johnson to Corbyn and no brexit. It was an easy mistake to make, it’s difficult to resist the herd by not jumping on the first convenient bandwagon which seems to promise what you want. But the Libdems have been exposed. If you want to stop no deal, and want to stop brexit altogether, there is only one party who can make that happen.
Kelvin - vote lib dem get tory hurts them more. How many ex labour and toy have now joined the lib dems?
I really do think thats part of her issue - she knows after a GE she is a busted flush even if she keeps her seat. They will be back to being less than a dozen mps
Just look at the reaction of all other players in this. Swinson has made a huge political blunder
there is only one party who can make that happen
There is no one party that can make it happen.
vote lib dem get tory hurts them more
Yes it does. But it all depends on the seat. In the areas where LibDems can take Tory seats and Labour are very unlikely to (and where it matters most at the upcoming election if you want Brexit stopped), supporting Corbyn will hurt them in a way that supporting another caretaker PM would not. Nationwide… I agree, that if seen to support a Tory PM, especially one like Johnson, it would hurt them far far more.
Corbyn still has no intention of stopping Brexit. He’s opposing no deal (in his usual complacent half-arsed, disengaged way) so that it’ll Hopefully deliver him a majority at a GE (yeah.. right...) and he will then his frankly ridiculous idea of a magic red unicorns Brexit
The country is staring into the abyss of No Deal and the opposition, such as it is, is still taking refuge in fantasy
If there is to be a government of national unity then it needs a leader that has at least a tenuous grasp on reality
As it stands, Corbyn is doing what he’s done from day one... facilitated Brexit
He must know full well that setting himself as grand empower will ensure that the idea is dead in the water, whereas with literally anybody else but him, it might well have been a goer.
And there will be no debate with other parties, obviously, because he hasn’t changed his mind on anything since 1971.
Pragmatism just being another thing to add to the long list of political instincts he is completely devoid of
I'll just put this here for balance.
Swinson later released a more nuanced letter to the Labour leader agreeing to meet him for talks and not ruling out the possibility of backing him as leader of a caretaker government if it would stop a no-deal Brexit.
But she challenged him to find the eight Conservative MPs necessary to make a success of his proposal
It’s going to need more than 8… but the point is valid.
He must know full well that setting himself as grand empower will ensure that the idea is dead in the water,
Yeah of course. It’s all a Machiavellian plot to achieve a no deal brexit. This obsession with conspiracies that don’t exist is mystifying.
Yeah of course. It’s all a Machiavellian plot to achieve a no deal brexit. This obsession with conspiracies that don’t exist is mystifying.
So what do you think the chances are of you're glorious dictator getting some tories to cross the floor?
I can think of 4 that probably would… but they wouldn’t even cancel out the Labour MPs that would vote against him in this situation.
Scratch that… 3 now… Spelman has already gone cold on the idea.
Corbyn still has no intention of stopping Brexit.
And what special conclusive evidence from the land of political rage and nonsense have you got that from?
This whole idea of facilitating Brexit is drivel. They (Labour) pledged to deliver the result of the referendum - agreed at conference. And they've followed through with all of that process.
"Conference also believes a no-deal Brexit should be rejected as a viable option and calls upon Labour MPs to vigorously oppose any attempt by this Government to deliver a no-deal outcome"
The recent letter is just a formal extension of all that because we are now heading towards no deal with a PM who is prepared to do it.
Collectively - Labour.
Your rants bear no connection to reality.
He must know full well that setting himself as grand empower will ensure that the idea is dead in the water, whereas with literally anybody else but him, it might well have been a goer
That's on them then not Corbyn.
It's a toss idea (and unconstitutional) that 'someone' gets to choose an individual that 'they' believe is more ideal for the job than the Leader of the opposition for caretaker.
I do wonder where your mate Tom Watson is - what's he going to bring to the party? A pointless twitter vote on who to navigate Brexit, some fag packet AS stuff he's been holding back in case Corbyn makes a move like this? Promote himself to leader with the help of crowd-funding?
Remain-ultras love the idea of subverting democracy don't they? It's a constant theme, and they don't have the nuance to follow Corbyn's line of trying to pull the sides together.
You lost your vote but your political party has to deal with it now.
Mattyfez - yes thats right - she has had to row back from her initial position given how isolated she has become and how badly she misjudged the situation.
So Corbyn has absoluely non intention of stopping Brexit as Binners stated and you clearly agree, Rone:
They (Labour) pledged to deliver the result of the referendum – agreed at conference.
Corbyn and company want Brexit, just their version of it. And their version will meet exactly the resistance from the EU because the red lines are much the same. Labour's idea of Brexit is protectionist rather than social and fiscal dumping but relies on setting up the same barriers to movement of people as a Tory Brexit.
Corbyn is a Brexiter until the day he stands up and says "I will withdraw Art. 50, apologise profusely to the EU 27 for the waste of time and effort and the economic damage already done, and I guarantee a firm commitment to the European project will be at the heart of Labour politics for as long as I'm Labour leader". He would choke on the words so he won't utter them.
A Labour Bexit is still Brexit. Remain means withdrawing Art.50.
On a personal level I'm firmly remain but if there is to be a Brexit then as a European no deal is my prefered option. If you gotta go, go now or else you gotta stay all night. Hanging around to provide fiscal optimisation, money laundering and unfair competition (which is what Tories and Labour want) isn't acceptable so just go.
As it stands, Corbyn is doing what he’s done from day one… facilitated Brexit
As it stands, Corbyn is doing what he’s done from day one… facilitated Brexit
The only party facilitating brexit, and a no deal one at that, are the Libdems, eternal friends to the Tories, and Johnson’s best chance of getting what he wants. They and the people who supported them won’t be forgiven.
Just to go back a page to "who to lead a unity government", its a shame Mark Carney has committed to the BoE until January, no?
The only party facilitating brexit, and a no deal one at that, are the Libdems
How so, Daz? The Lib Dems policy is Remain, simple as.
They and the people who supported them won’t be forgiven.
You and your mates give 'em a good kickin', big man.
That'll lurn 'em, the bourgeois b---.
The Lib Dems policy is Remain, simple as.
With the massive caveat that it's not Corbyn at the helm when it happens. Their actions in the past day or two have clearly demonstrated that they would prefer Johnson and his no deal to Corbyn being PM, even if it's just for a few weeks. That's not a policy of remain, it's a policy of no Corbyn, even if it means a no deal brexit.
You and your mates give ’em a good kickin’, big man.
WTF are you talking about?
I thnk we can all agree Swinson has made a massive blunder and her actions can easily be seen as she would prefer a tory government with brexit to a labur government with a second ref. And remember - Labour policy is a second ref under ALL circumstances - and labour are the only party to deal with this with nuance ie that the path taken depends on the circumstances. Everyone else is trying to pretend there are easy answers to difficult questions
As for them getting a kicking - my prediction is the lib dems end up with single figure MPs after the next election and are the 5th largest party. When your USP is that you have principles and honesty and your actions show this not to be true then you lose a lot.
Their actions in the past day or two have clearly demonstrated that they would prefer Johnson and his no deal to anyone other than Corbyn being PM, even if it’s just for a few weeks.
Labour front bench?
Actually, not heard from Starmer or any of the other less pliable members of the Shadow Cabinet recently… so unfair to taint them all with that accusation. But the tame ones popped up all over the place to destroy any idea of a cross party government on behalf of their leader (he wouldn’t get dirty doing it himself of course).
Labour Astroturfers?
As someone who voted Labour in 2017, and now hope to again in a general election as soon as possible… watching “Labour supporters” popping up everywhere with the same attack lines on Lucas, Swinson or Labour MPs, when they make any statement about the way ahead that suggests that others should or could be at the helm of a temporary government, has been utterly nauseating.
WTF are you talking about?
The fantasy nonsense you're posting, Dazh. All this Lib Dem policy is in your head.
Find me a Youtube, policy staement or anything at all where Corby states clearly he is in favour of remain and will pull Art.50 ASAP. The policy of a second referendum is laudable but too late. There's no way he can get into power and organise a referendum before 30/10. An you know what happens on 3/10 unless the EU 27 agree another extension.
Remember what Macron said when the last extension was given - "use the time wisely". The mood is changing in Europe. I'm here, I've been discussing with french, German and Spanish people, the mood is that Britain is being unreasonable and the EU should be very firm, May's deal was too generous to Britain and perhaps the best deal for the EU is no deal and sort it out after. It only takes one EU leader to adopt that view.
Time will run out while people are bickering and promising a second referendum Brexit will happen.
Corbyn should have vehemently opposed Art. 50 and then campaigned for its withdrawal. He still hasn't and isn't . He's failing Labour voters because that's what they want according to polls. He is failing the working classes and union members he is there to represent. Becuase he's never done an honest days work in his life, never been poor or in need of anything, and hasn't got clue how the world works.
when they make any statement about the way ahead that suggests that others should or could be at the helm of a temporary government, has been utterly nauseating.
Of course whereas watching "Former Labour supporters" popping up everywhere with hilarious comments about magic grandpa is superb for the digestion.
Its really odd how some feel its fine to launch attack after attack but then if the favour is return whine.
The only party facilitating brexit, and a no deal one at that, are the Libdems
I think that shows a lack of experience on the part of Jo Swinson rather than any principled stance of the Libdems. I think she thought everyone else would have the same view as her, and has been surprised, hence the sharp rowing back from her earlier position
I think part of the problem for a lot of folk on this thread is you think that the parties have a some sort of plan or idea about what they're doing, while they are in fact, just making it up as they go along in the hope that it will work out well for them in the longer run. It might be the single most important thing to have happened in their lifetime, but it's still the same Westminster greasy pole. And you'd be foolish to loose sight of that in all the excitement
Lib Dem policy looks clear to me:
https://www.libdemvoice.org/revokearticle50-is-now-lib-dem-policy-60302.html
That's all the Brexit planning they need. Not much planning needed to maintain the staus quo.
So what do we think about Ken Clarke leading a government of national unity, then?
Sounds like a bloody good idea to me. If anything, just to see the look on all the ERG headbangers faces. They'll be absolutely ****ing apoplectic.
He's been a consistent PITA to them for years 😀
Just to go back a page to “who to lead a unity government”, its a shame Mark Carney has committed to the BoE until January, no?
There won't be a government of national unity. The last time we had one was WW2 at a time of existential crisis. What we're talking about here is unifying Remain, which if opinion polls are to be believed, is just over half the population. "Government of national division" would be more accurate.
Lib Dem policy looks clear to me:
Yeah the problem is they missed the "terms and conditions apply. We withhold the right to decide a hard brexit is fine in order to annoy Corbyn or, more importantly, his idea that we should have an election since whilst libdems overall might do well a few key current MPs are in a bit of a dodgy spot".
What Edukator said.
What nickc said.
Most of all this cluckerfust is plain old incompetence and greed and stupidity, not conspiracy and plotting.
Theres 2 problems with Corbyn as caretaker PM
Among renainers (and leavers). He's just not trusted on Brexit, his stance on Brexit has not been clear (he still won't say if he'd back remain ina 2nd ref), you need a flow chart to figure out what labour want regards Brexit that doesn't translate into votes in a polling booth or the division lobby.
2nd problem is that for it to work & block no deal Brexit caretaker PM has to be someone Tory rebels will vote for, the labour brexiteers won't vote for it regardless so it's dependent on Tory moderates, even Hammond won't vote for corbyn.
Labour know all this, is it a trap for Swinson & an effort to claw back the votes they've lost to the Lads rather than a genuine effort to stop no deal Brexit ?
It's still all a mess & no deal seems by far the likeliest outcome.
My sentiments exactly Kimbers. The way they've gone about it is so totally non-comital, half-arsed and throwaway that you can tell that they were never remotely serious about it.
SQUIRREL!!
It's just about distraction, and making it look like you're doing something, then blame-storming for the upcoming catastrophe. He's roping the Lib Dems in now
It's just more of the same from within the bunker. Corbyn wants Brexit, but he doesn't want his fingerprints on it.
It's so transparent. His fingerprints are all over Brexit though
Its just more of the same from within the bunker. Corbyn wants Brexit, but he doesn’t want his fngerprints on it.
Morning comrade!
How's the revolution coming on?
Anyone who thinks that “Corbyn wants Brexit” is just conspiracy theory nonsense, or that those that can see this are akin to “flat earthers”, is ignoring all the evidence. I’m glad that Labour policy is finally to offer a referendum with a Remain option in all circumstances… but Corbyn still wants his chance to deliver Brexit… don’t lose sight of that… he’s managed to keep that as Labour policy… and if it happens without him getting his chance to be the one to deliver it… while most of the Labour movement will be gutted… no one really believes he would be… do they? That really wouldn’t fit it with his lifetime of work, would it.
Morning comrade!
How’s the revolution coming on?
How does the Swinson Kool Aid taste? Are you happy you got in to bed with the yellow tories, who've betrayed your wishes at the first opportunity?
It’s so transparent. His fingerprints are all over Brexit though
I was wondering how long it would take you to recover.
Is there any scenario where you wouldnt completely blame Corbyn? I suspect if he resigned today you would claim it is a cunning plan to confuse things.
2nd problem is that for it to work & block no deal Brexit caretaker PM has to be someone Tory rebels will vote for
It comes back to a simple question. If a no deal brexit is as catastrophic and unthinkable as the moderate tories and libdems say it is, then they should put aside party politics and do whatever it takes to stop it. Corbyn's plan is the simplest, most direct and quickest way to do that. So do they want to avoid no deal or not? Labour have tabled a plan which will work, all it needs is the tories and libdems to act in the national interest.
The issue Corbyn has is he isn't a very good leader; therfore the competing factions within the labour party who want opposing brexit outcomes get too much aritime/influnece so the public don't see a coherant labour policy. Wheter or not Corbyn wants or doesnt want Brexit is a mute point; we are likely going to be going into a general election soon with large swathes of the popualtion unclear on, and untrsting in labours position.
In other news, does anyone find it amusing that theose pesky Turks that were going to come an steal all our jobs are possibly going to save 4,000 in a Breixt affected industry https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/16/british-steel-provisional-deal-with-turkish-bidder-could-save-4000-jobs-oyak
So what do we think about Ken Clarke leading a government of national unity, then?
I would vote for it.
Corbyn’s plan is the simplest, most direct and quickest way to do that. So do they want to avoid no deal or not? Labour have tabled a plan which will work, all it needs is the tories and libdems to act in the national interest.
But it only works if it can get votes on parliament , that's why Swinson suggested a labour & a Tory
Corbyn putting himself up doesn't sound like putting country before party !
Corbyn’s plan is the simplest, most direct and quickest way to do that.
No it isn't and it won't work anyhow, BUT, any remain Tory can resign (well an MP can't resign but can choose to be disqualified). Given the slender majority a handful of Tories disqualifying themselves would lose the government its majority and enable a succesful no-confidence vote by the opposition - but only if the Labour Brexiters voted against the government. Mass self-disqualifications by Tory Brexit rebels are the only way I can see of stopping Brexit before 30/10. Won't happen of course. Crashing out on 30/10 is the most likely scenario if you believe the traders.
Anyone who thinks that “Corbyn wants Brexit” is just conspiracy theory nonsense,
If I may quoth Binners? "watch what they do, not what they say"
I'm pretty solidly Labour and I don't trust Corbyn on Brexit, and in polling he's consistently the least trusted politician and the last list I saw included May and Johnson!
Every MP knows that we're crashing out at the end of October. Thats the default, and theres nothing anyone can do now we're a government absolutely determined to ram it though at all costs. All this present nonsense is about is who gets the blame. Expect more of this sort of pointless, impotent posturing.
The truth is that most of them are to blame. Namely, every ****ing idiot that voted to trigger article 50 (to quote Donald Tusk) 'without a sketch of a plan' as to what would happen next.
In case people have forgotten the commons voted 498 : 114 to invoke Art. 50.
The way the BBC presented it at the time was bizarre:
MPs have voted by a majority of 384 to allow Prime Minister Theresa May to get Brexit negotiations under way.
They didn't vote to get negotiations under way, they voted to leave the European union, because that's the only thing Art. 50 does. So the vast majority of those MPs who had campaigned for remain turned around and voted to leave.
Even more ridiculously, at that point Mays Brexit 'strategy' consisted of three words:
Brexit Means Brexit
That was it. Thats what they all voted for. Thats why we're in the mess we're in now.
****ing clowns!
If I remember rightl the EU said they wouldnt negioatie until reciveing article 50. Doesn't excuse the total lack of stragety or planning pre A50 submission; but that was the rason given why it had to be invoked quickly I think?
but that was the rason given why it had to be invoked quickly I think?
Yup.
The reason it was invoked so quickly was to avoid the eurosceptic papers attacks.
I love this its all corbyns fault line from some of you given the major splits in his party over brexit - 70+ labour mps want brexit in varying forms and the last attempt that labour made to take control of parliament to stop no deal brexit was stymied by 18 labour mps refusing to support the attempt - despite 8 (iirc) tories voting with labour
So actually the people who have stopped labour stopping brexit arenot the leadership but the backbenchers - many of whom are held up by the corbyn haters as true labour!
The Labour Brexiteers are a right old mish mash. Some old lefties, like Corbyn, some who would be considered Blairite
I don't doubt for a second though, that if Grandad was still on the backbenches (where he should be) he'd have voted with the Brexiteers every single time
TJ very few here think "it's Corbyn's fault" you should probably stop banging that particularly hollow drum. Most criticism of Corbyn comes from his lack of opposition. His party is overwhelmingly for remain, the confusion* from his front bench is frustrating to those here of.a leftwing remain stance.
*I've said before, from a Westminster POV it makes perfect sense, however it hasn't translated well to public, and the lack of Corbyn vocally and loudly and clearly articulating arguments against the Johnson govt is doubly frustrating
Corbyn putting himself up doesn’t sound like putting country before party !
Corbyn is leader of the opposition. He’s dutybound to put himself up. The only way he can recuse himself of that is to resign. So who is playing politics? Corbyn or his opponents who are using the threat of no deal to remove him?
. He’s dutybound to put himself up.
if your first duty is to your party, rather than your country.........
Most criticism of Corbyn comes from his lack of opposition
And that he is a godawful leader.
Where's Boris? Out and about, in the news, you know what he's pushing. Free money for everyone and a glorious Brexity future.
Even the minority that is the Lib Dem party have a leader in the news pushing the Anti Brexit stance.
But what are Labour doing?
Vernon Bogdanor talking to Ploitico London Playbook has come up with a wizard scenario
A Brexit election: Even if Boris Johnson holds an election after the U.K. has left with no deal on October 31, an election could be fought on Brexit, Bogdanor believes. “I don’t believe an election in November could frustrate a Remain or anti-no deal position. It is true the default position in Britain and the EU is that we leave on October 31. But the British parliament is sovereign so it can pass retrospective legislation, and it did for example with the War Crimes Act of 1991 — parliament could deem we hadn’t left and seek an extension.”
If you cant change the future change the past.
Fire up the Delorean
if your first duty is to your party, rather than your country
HM Leader of the Opposition is not a party post, it's a statutory position paid for by the state, and the duties in regards to this post are to the country and not the party of the person who holds it. Corbyn can't get himself out of putting himself up for government without resigning any more than Johnson can swan off for a bit then come back when he wants.
So much bullshit.
Anyway… I’m in shock… at the in-laws place… and my other half’s dad… Conservative all his life, voted Brexit, still thinks we should leave the EU… just said that the idea of Clarke&Harman leading a cross party temporary government to stop this new Tory government from leading us into a Deal Brexit this autumn IS A GOOD IDEA and Tory MPs should back it. The world has just turned upside down. Has always disagreed with Clarke on Europe, but now says he would rather put his trust in him and key Labour politicians to act in the national interest than the current government.