Forum menu
The only chance now is enough Tory MPs such as David Gauke walking away from Boris and no deal to remove his Parliamentary majority and trigger VONC and a general election.
Labour policy needs to be utterly unambigious, and judging by the number of reasonably educated folk on here still arguing over the number of angels you can fit on the head of a pin, it isn't. And if it's ambiguous for us, it will be bewildering for the electorate. Even as it stands, an electoral deal between Boris and Farage is a distinct possibility to finally remove all hope.
Who remembers the halcyon days when the grown-ups were going to sort it all out before we fell off the cliff? 🙂
well at least Kate Hoey is going, not soon enough, unfortunately
how on earth she hasnt been booted out & deselected already is beyond me
Here you go. From the last few weeks columns:
Note how there is only really one thing he is whinging about with regards to the rather extreme tory policies. Not all the other batshit proposals from the tories but just one.
He is hardline tory he just isnt a brexiteer variant.
well at least Kate Hoey is going, not soon enough, unfortunately
But sadly for her largely remain constituency she will probably leave then a present they don't want before she goes.
Finally, clarity *
Labour is poised to declare it will campaign for remain in a second referendum on any deal put to parliament by a Conservative prime minister, after trade union bosses including Unite’s Len McCluskey backed the change of policy.
Barring any major intervention, the surprise consensus among trade unions including Unite, GMB and Unison is likely to force any remaining sceptics to agree the new position when the shadow cabinet meets on Tuesday.
Union bosses met on Monday to agree the common position that Labour should explicitly declare that while it is the opposition it will campaign for a second referendum and for remaining in the EU.
However, the unions also agreed Labour should seek to deliver a Brexit deal if the party won an election before the UK left the EU.
* possibly
Basically in, and out, at the same time.
**** Labour.
So that's just the current position, yes? Tory Brexit bad, Labour Brexit good? So, if we keep Labour in opposition, they will join with MPs in other parties to demand a referendum, but if we vote them into power, they will push on with Brexit?
That’s a truly schizophrenic position. Weird.
No kelvin they will have a referendum on any deal. As has been the policy for a while. what is to be decided is if labour are in a position to make a deal and get a good one - there will still be a referendum on it but labour will have a free vote - at the moment
Labour is poised to declare it will campaign for remain in a second referendum on any deal put to parliament by a Conservative prime minister, after trade union leaders including Unite’s Len McCluskey backed a change of policy.
The joint position agreed by the unions on Monday would not commit Labour to an explicitly pro-remain position in all circumstances: unions also agreed Labour should seek to deliver a Brexit deal if the party won an election before the UK left the EU.
That Labour deal would also be put to a public vote, but the party would not commit to campaigning for remain against its own Brexit deal, throwing into doubt what Labour would offer in any snap election manifesto.
Crucial sentance missed from the quote
So that’s just the current position, yes? Tory Brexit bad, Labour Brexit good? So, if we keep Labour in opposition, they will join with MPs in other parties to demand a referendum, but if we vote them into power, they will push on with Brexit?
Not quite, you forgot the hypocrisy of campaigning for remain on a tory brexit, while still committing to brexit if (hahahah) labour win an imaginary election. But at least (I think) they have now committed to put either a tory or labour brexit to a public vote.
Still peddling the fantasy that their can be a beneficial brexit instead of trying to get across to as many people as possible that any brexit will be catastrophic, just that one kic
It is still as clear as mud what they believe in, for supposedly life long conviction politicians they seem rather short of political conviction.
Still too little too late, we are dependent on tory rebels to prevent the slide to no-deal brexit.
yeah it's pretty schizophrenic but it's progress at least!
As (i think) Ian Dunt just put it on twitter...
"Right then chaps, here it is - we're clearing up our position once and for all. SCENARIO 1......"
Again - wrong - not committed to brexit if labour negotiate one. Just not committed to campaign for remain in the unlikely event labour get a chance to make a deal.
Also note this quote from the same article that backs up what I have been saying for weeks
Labour had already shifted its Brexit stance to propose that any Brexit deal passed by parliament should be put to the people in a second referendum, after the party suffered heavy losses to the pro-remain Liberal Democrats at the local and European elections.
The change here is labour are committing to campaign for remain on any tory deal but still an open vote if labour somehow make a deal. Its a bone to the bexiteers in labour
I agree its a daft position but why do you folk keep on misrepresenting it?
Maybe they aren't misrepresenting it. The problem lies elsewhere.
labour are committing to campaign for remain on any tory deal but still an open vote if labour somehow make a deal.
So.... let's say the Tories make a deal and Labour campaign for remain in opposition to it. Fine - might win over some voters. Then BJ calls a general election. Labour stop campaigning for remain and instead campaign for a Labour Brexit + 2nd ref?
Maybe I'm being pessimistic but I can't see that winning over many of their lost voters... :/
So, if you want Brexit stopped asap, and think that a referendum with a Remain option is the route towards that, and you want the Labour Party campaigning for Remain in that referendum, then you should use your vote at a snap General Election to keep Labour in opposition? Is that what the unions want voters to be considering? Looking forward to this messy joint union proposition being picked up and made totally clear by the Labour leader's strategy and communications team as/if they adopt it as policy… I'm sure they have it in them… all signs point to that… honest. They won't be adding more caveats and complicating the flow chart still further… oh no.
you want the Labour Party campaigning for Remain in that referendum, then you should use your vote at a snap General Election to keep Labour in opposition?
You seem to have missed the fatal flaw in this line of reasoning. If you keep labour in opposition you won’t get a referendum. Also for all the wailing about labour negotiating a new deal, there does actually have to be one in order to have a confirmatory referendum. Do you expect a new labour govt to not attempt to renegotiate May’s shit show? If they fail and May’s deal is the only one left, then it’s clear that they will support remain.
Anyway, I’m glad TJ and myself have been vindicated. A guaranteed referendum with a remain option is now for all intents and purposes official labour policy (hasn’t been rubber stamped yet though TBF). Also as I thought it looks like They’re going down the Wilson option of allowing MPs to campaign freely on the referendum which is probably a good idea.
As we’re already seeing though it won’t be enough for the remain culture warriors.
Vindicated my arse! You've railed against Labour adopting a remain position ( which they are still far from adopting ) for at least 2 years! You said it would split the party and they would never get the support of the disenfranchised working class of the North!
As for Labour's change of position, I'll believe it when I hear JC on the 8:10 slot on r4, announcing it and answering questions on it.
Anyway, I’m glad TJ and myself have been vindicated. A guaranteed referendum with a remain option is now for all intents and purposes official labour policy (hasn’t been rubber stamped yet though TBF)
lets just hang on a minute there, shall we? Rubber stamped? 'The Leadership' haven't agreed to anything yet.
Corbyn's own MP's, membership and voters have been telling him for years to do this. He hasn't. He's been listening exclusively to Seamus and the rest of his anti-EU clique. So I'll just hang fire on that one, thanks. I'll believe it when I see it. What I expect more of is more endless fudge, procrastination, hand-wringing and can-kicking
Just reading this mornings Guardian. 2nd Paragraph:
The joint position agreed by the unions on Monday would not commit Labour to an explicitly pro-remain position in all circumstances: unions also agreed Labour should seek to deliver a Brexit deal if the party won an election before the UK left the EU.
That doesn't sound like very unequivocal to me. Or very remainy. That just says that if they win an election they'll carry on 'respecting the result of the referendum and 'honouring the will of the people'
Anyway... away from the pointless, ineffective, fudgey sideshow that is the Labour Party, Five Live have spent the morning interviewing a panel of Tory party members. Its ****ing terrifying. They're all absolutely insistent on Borises 'no matter what' 'do or die' attitude to Brexit. They're all, every one of them, demanding no deal, out means out bollocks, banging on about the second world war, Winston Churchill and 'Britain standing alone against Europe' (an actual quote!)
As we’re already seeing though it won’t be enough for the remain culture warriors.
We are where we are. We didn't choose a culture war, David Cameron did. But we've now got one. And those are the people we're up against. The Labour party should be firmly on the side of liberal, progressive, pro-EU values. It hasn't been, because it hasn't wanted to be. You can rail against 'culture warriors' all you like, but somebody has to stop what is essentially a right wing coup, and the Labour party doesn't look like its much interest in doing so
Anyway, I’m glad TJ and myself have been vindicated.
The Labour movement, almost in its entirety, wants the leadership to adopt the policy that many of us have also been saying we want adopted. This joint union position is all part of pushing in that direction (even if it is still a messy fridge). @dazh, you and TJ keep telling us that Corbyn has already adopted the position that his party are dragging and pushing him to. Are they pushing against an open door? They'll get him there eventually, maybe, but he isn't there yet… will today be the day?
When/if he eventually moves, how much will he have damaged his own credentials, as the man who would empower and support the party's members and supporters, by all this "long game" of long games?
You said it would split the party and they would never get the support of the disenfranchised working class of the North!
And I still fear it will. The fact that they have got to the point of guaranteeing a referendum (still TBC officially) with a remain option without the party splitting is further than I thought they’d get, and a result of the consensus building process that most on here have opposed.
The next problem will be winning an election, and then a remain victory in the resultant referendum. Both are still remote possibilities so I wouldn’t get your hopes up.
Is Jeremy finally coming down off his fence?
Who knows? Its like pulling ****ing teeth
Statement from Corbyn today. It won't go far enough for many of you but makes it utterly clear that they would have a referendum on any deal and on do deal / tory hard leave would campaign for remain
I am proud to lead the Labour Party – the greatest political party and social movement in this country.
We all recognise that the issue of Brexit has been divisive in our communities and sometimes in our party too.
As democrats, Labour accepted the result of the 2016 referendum. In our 2017 manifesto, Labour also committed to oppose a No Deal Brexit and the Tories' Brexit plans – which threatened jobs, living standards, and the open multicultural society that we as internationalists value so much.
I want to pay tribute to Keir Starmer and the shadow Brexit team for holding the Government to account during this process. That helped secure a meaningful vote on their deal – which we then defeated three times – including inflicting the largest ever defeat on any Government. And following their refusal to publish their legal advice, this Government became the first to be held in contempt of Parliament.
Labour set out a compromise plan to try to bring the country together based around a customs union, a strong single market relationship and protection of environmental regulations and rights at work. We continue to believe this is a sensible alternative that could bring the country together.
But the Prime Minister refused to compromise and was unable to deliver, so we ended cross-party talks.
Now both Tory leadership candidates are threatening a No Deal Brexit – or at best a race to the bottom and a sweetheart deal with Donald Trump: that runs down industry, opens up our NHS and other public services to yet more privatisation, and shreds environmental protections, rights at work and consumer standards.
I have spent the past few weeks consulting with the shadow cabinet, MPs, affiliated unions and the NEC. I have also had feedback from members via the National Policy Forum consultation on Brexit.
Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote.
In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs.
Labour has a crucial, historic duty to safeguard jobs, rights and living standards. But no Brexit outcome alone can do that.
We need a general election. After nine years of austerity, too many people in this country cannot find decent secure well-paid work, and have to rely on public services that have been severely cut back.
Our country is ravaged by inequality and rising poverty, huge regional imbalances of investment, and the government is failing to tackle the climate emergency facing us all.
That is why we need a Labour government to end austerity and rebuild our country for the many, not the few.
That doesn’t sound like very unequivocal to me. Or very remainy.
According to the BBC they say they'd rather remain than have no deal or a 'bad tory' Brexit.
Now, we all know that the deal isn't renegotiable, so that is a way of saying they respect the will of the people but are going to campaign for remain.
Interesting to see how that affects polls. If they can even get the message out. Their position is qualified, and we know that kind of thing is too complicated for many voters.
"Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote.
In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs."
So basically, in the event of a labour win at a snap GE, there is zero commitment to holding a peoples vote with Remain as an option.
Well, at least we are clear what Corbyn will do… just as long as we don't make him PM… because then… what exactly happens? Oh… end austerity and rebuild… that's good, but what is his Brexit policy? Anyone?!?
Labour is demanding a referendum on any tory deal, which they know they won't get, but in the event of a general election then its straight back to red unicorns
Jesus wept!
"Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote."
Is it just me that finds this sentence terrifying?
My god its pointless
Corbyn has made it 100% clear in other statements also posted on here that its a referendum on ANY deal negotiated by ANY pm.
If by some unlikely chance labour are in power and negotiate a very soft leave then they would not be committed to campaigning against this.
Is it just me that finds this sentence terrifying?
The next paragraph puts it into context. Could have been better written though eg not next paragraph.
Is it just me that finds this sentence terrifying?
You mean terrifying because it looks like a straight line to a public backed No Deal? I'd prefer that to No Deal happening without public consent.
Labour is demanding a referendum on any tory deal, which they know they won’t get, but in the event of a general election then its straight back to red unicorns
Jesus wept!
Mate, they know there is no changing the deal, so this implicitly means they are having a referendum. The red unicorn brexit is a smokescreen to try and keep leavers onside.
Corbyn has made it 100% clear in other statements also posted on here that its a referendum on ANY deal negotiated by ANY pm.
Link?
Any quote from Corbyn (even as late as today) saying that a Labour government would hold a referendum with a Remain option would be very welcome. He hasn't said it in the past, but if he said it today it would be go a long way towards clarifying his new message. I'd give him a standing ovation.
Corbyn has made it 100% clear in other statements also posted on here that its a referendum on ANY deal negotiated by ANY pm.
We've been here before. This has only ever happened in your head
So basically, in the event of a labour win at a snap GE, there is zero commitment to holding a peoples vote with Remain as an option.
Nope - the committement is there in previous statements to hold a referendum even if labour are in power and negotiate a deal
Labour had already shifted its Brexit stance to propose that any Brexit deal passed by parliament should be put to the people in a second referendum, after the party suffered heavy losses to the pro-remain Liberal Democrats at the local and European elections.
Scotroutes - I have numerous times given a link to Corbyns statements that make it absolutely clear that ANY deal will go to referendum with leave and remain options.
Any quote from Corbyn (even as late as today) saying that a Labour government would hold a referendum with a Remain option would be very welcome. He hasn’t said it in the past,
He has said it in the past. I have linked to and quoted numerous statements to that effect.
Link? Go on…
Are you referring to the statement that included the weasel words "demand a referendum" and "options for"…? Or another one? If there are multiple ones… give us multiple links or quotes now, please.
Labour is poised to declare it will campaign for remain in a second referendum on any deal put to parliament by a Conservative prime minister, after trade union leaders including Unite’s Len McCluskey backed a change of policy.
The joint position agreed by the unions on Monday would not commit Labour to an explicitly pro-remain position in all circumstances: unions also agreed Labour should seek to deliver a Brexit deal if the party won an election before the UK left the EU.
That Labour deal would also be put to a public vote, but the party would not commit to campaigning for remain against its own Brexit deal, throwing into doubt what Labour would offer in any snap election manifesto.
One senior shadow cabinet source described it as a significant win for remain campaigners, despite the potential lack of clarity.
“Unions have backed a referendum on any deal this parliament and Labour campaigning for remain – that’s a big victory. What’s in a manifesto is a debate for another day,” the source said.
Scotroutes – I have numerous times given a link to Corbyns statements that make it absolutely clear that ANY deal will go to referendum with leave and remain options.
No, you bloody haven't. You've linked to a statement that he supports a referendum with "real options for both Leave and Remain voters". I'm not the only one calling this out, half the Labour Party are. Do I need to mention them all. Again?
this is so painful. Can you not read english?
Even the guardian which hates Corbyn and labour now accept that labour policy is any deal negotiated by any PM goes to a second referndum with leave and remain options
Multiple quotes saying exactly this
We have read what the joint union statement says, and we know that most of the Labour movement want a Labour government to hold a referendum with a Remain option… what we are asking you for, TJ, ex-troll, is a link or quote where Corbyn says that.
this is so painful. Can you not read english?
Even the guardian which hates Corbyn and labour now accept that labour policy is any deal negotiated by any PM goes to a second referndum with leave and remain options
Multiple quotes saying exactly this
Great - link and quote Corbyn here. Put it to bed.
Scotroutes - I have linked numerous times to numerous statements saying showing that labour policy is clearly a referendum on any deal with leave and remain options even if negotiated by labour!
Its clear, its in black and white
Arrgghhh - why did I come back to this! I( should have learnt the lesson you tried to teach me scotroutes 😉 make your statement and leave
Front page on the Guardian now, Labour apparently back remain in a referendum.
The kicker is that they still support a labour Brexit first though.
So no real change.
If Grandad plans to campaign for remain as whole-heartedly as he did last time, essentially he’s just voted himself another couple of months kicking back on the allotment
Scotroutes – I have linked numerous times to numerous statements saying showing that labour policy is clearly a referendum on any deal with leave and remain options even if negotiated by labour!
Its clear, its in black and white
Humour us. Link and quote Corbyn.
Yup Binners. It’s not a real change in stance, it’s political weaselling.
Even the guardian which hates Corbyn and labour now accept that labour policy is any deal negotiated by any PM goes to a second referndum with leave and remain options
No, there is no commitment in today's statement for a remain option in a referendum on a labour deal, only that either deal would be put to a referendum, and labour would back remain on a tory deal (and even then with the caveats of a deal that does not protect the economy and jobs).
Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote.
In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs.
It’s like Groundhog Day. They must seriously think we’ve all just fallen out of a ****ing tree!
Well the Lib Dem’s and the Greens will be happy enough. Still the home for the anti-Brexit vote as the Labour Party takes aim at its foot once again, ready to give it both barrels
It's definitely a change in stance but with extra political weaselling (a.k.a politics) added.
Corbyn has to lead a split party and represent a split voter base, he does't have the luxury of just backing whatever he wants like you lot do. Because he's actually in a position of power.
No, there is no commitment in today’s statement for a remain option in a referendum on a labour deal, only that either deal would be put to a referendum, and labour would back remain on a tory deal (and even then with the caveats of a deal that does not protect the economy and jobs
What we need to do is vote Tory in enough numbers to give them an even smaller majority, but enough to cause labour to oppose a Tory Brexit with some chance of success. 🙂 As opposed to whole heartedly voting Labour.
Corbyn truly is a prat.
Why on Earth is Corbyn so keen on delivering a labour Brexit, it’s a poisoned chalice!? If Labour tried to strike a deal it would end them.
Why on Earth is Corbyn so keen on delivering a labour Brexit
Why d'you think?!
Can you not read english?
Can you? I pointed this out yesterday and you've ignored it.
Even the guardian which hates Corbyn and labour now accept that labour policy is any deal negotiated by any PM goes to a second referndum with leave and remain options
...
You’ve linked to a statement that he supports a referendum with “real options for both Leave and Remain voters”.
These two statements look superficially similar, but they are not the same thing. Not by a long way. The Red Unicorns "jobs first" brexit could easily be presented to satisfy the latter statement but not the former.
well Labour had their chance.......
they blew it
again
As I read it the Labour party has produced a policy to campaign for a second referendum with a remain option but only if it's not in power. One can only assume the lack of a policy for being in power is the knowledge that that will never happen.
https://twitter.com/bbcnormans/status/1148539055342309376?s=21
Repeatly calling for a General Election before Brexit, to move this country on from its stagnant holding pattern, is still a good approach… but you need a clear policy on Brexit when calling for that General Election… without it you just look opportunist and not ready to govern.
Oh God! I can see whats coming now. Once the Tory's have installed the self-serving mop, Corbyn is going to pop up and demand a referendum every five minutes, like he did with demanding a general election a while back.
And he knows full well that he's about as likely to get it. Not a cat in hells chance.
Unfortunately this will comprise, in its entirety, what Jezza considers his duties as leader of HM Opposition
I hope he does take that approach. Cross Party support for a referendum on the current WA vs Remain, and an extension from the EU to hold it, is the most realistic path to chase… if we don't have an election. This new policy statement is all about forming a constructive position to take in opposition, and as such should be welcomed as just that, but only that.
As I read it the Labour party has produced a policy to campaign for a second referendum with a remain option but only if it’s not in power.
As I said earlier, you can't have a confirmatory referendum on a deal if there's no deal. If a new labour govt did not at least attempt to negotiate a new deal they would be rightly criticised for not taking their responsibilities as a government properly. If they succeed in agreeing a new deal, they obviously can't campaign agaist it. If they fail (which is very likely), then the only options that remain are the existing deal or no deal, both of which they have said they will oppose in favour of remain.
Odd that you all seem very intent feeling defeated when you've won the argument. Corbyn could dance through whitehall in EU underpants and you'd still complain about it. Nothing in this whole debate makes any rational sense any more 🙂
So Labour's preferred option (you have to assume they want to be in power right?) is for Brexit under a Corbyn deal, if they don't get into power they'll support Remain. So the preferred Labour option is basically part fantasy and part another massive time wasting scenario while we're left in limbo. Yay, please take my vote Labour as that's so attractive...
Odd that you all seem very intent feeling defeated when you’ve won the argument.
I think it's more that they can't possibly be seen to climb down from their virulently anti-Corbyn agendas.
Wel I've been in the anti-Corbyn camp (don't think I was virulent though) but this seems to be a big move in the right direction to me.
I hope that it continues, and also that it's not too late - I'm still clinging to this hope that Brexit can be averted, and this makes that just a little more likely for me...
So in short, I think I have this right.
Labour are now a remain party while in opposition. However, should they win a GE & we haven't yet left the EU, they aren't saying which way they would go?
Not quite.
While in opposition they're now sort of remainy, in a vague ineffectual manner that they'll keep demanding a referendum, obviously without any chance of actually getting one.
But should they get in power they will be honouring the result of the referendum and fulfilling the will of the people. The red unicorns will gallop free across the pastures of the EU
Clear?
Its all totally logical and rational and makes perfect sense
Why on Earth is Corbyn so keen on delivering a labour Brexit
Because Corbyn is anti-EU and has been for decades. It's a form of Globalisation and at odds with Socialism.
Labour are now a remain party while in opposition. However, should they win a GE & we haven’t yet left the EU, they aren’t saying which way they would go?
As much as I don't mind a bit of a Corbyn bashing, this stance, for me at least is the correct one for the long-term sanity of the UK.
It correctly acknowledges that it's not a simple case of in/out with the EU.
They believe correctly that the current deal, which let's be honest is dead is bad for the UK and worse than remaining. They assume (correctly) that any deal that Boris or Hunt makes in an effort to bring their Party into line will be worse. They also know how bad a 'no deal' will be.
So, when the New PM tries to pass their deal they will fight it via Ref2 which is the ONLY way to go, to unilaterally revoke would be terrible, whatever the latest polls. In a choice between Tory deal and remain, they think remain is better.
However, if a GE is called, which is likely, they think they can cut a deal that's better than remaining on balance (a real heart v head fight between economics and 'freedom') - I don't think they can and wouldn't vote for it unless they can some how convince the EU to let us stay for less money.
The most important thing for me is that they promise to offer a 2nd ref on that deal too, with remain as an option.
That's all I want, a second fact based vote, not respecting the stupid remain v unicorn we had 3 years ago.
If, with all the facts at our disposal we still vote to leave, even though I know Leave will lie and cheat again, then I will personally vow to shut the **** up about it.
That said, I still won't vote for them as long as they're lead by a Socialist. I just don't believe in it.
.
(said, and much better, above)
That said, I still won’t vote for them as long as they’re lead by a Socialist. I just don’t believe in it.
It does exist - the NHS
P-Jay. I think your summary is all that any of us want. The chance to vote remain on ANY deal, whether it is a Labour deal, a Tory deal or No deal. The wording of the statement today offer remain as an option ONLY against a Tory deal or No deal. In the event of a Labour GE win and a negotiation of a Labour deal, the offer of a referendum is there but will only include No deal or the Labour deal as ballot options. This is how it is written. This is why people are rightly still not happy with the wording/stance. I have nothing against Labour attempting to get a better deal if they gain power, but think it stinks that they won't commit to giving the public a Remain option against any deal they put forward, while wanting that option against a Tory deal.
In the event of a Labour GE win and a negotiation of a Labour deal, the offer of a referendum is there but will only include No deal or the Labour deal as ballot options. This is how it is written.
That isn't what is meant. Check the briefing being sent to Labour MPs:
https://twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1148543812786118656
Specifically (emphasis mine):
What would Labour's Brexit policy be in its GE manifesto?
... we need a credible deal to stop from crashing out with No Deal - and that deal should be put to a public vote along with the option to remain.
That quite clearly says to me "Labour deal vs remain" as the two options on any referendum if Labour are in power.
The wording of the statement today offer remain as an option ONLY against a Tory deal or No deal. In the event of a Labour GE win and a negotiation of a Labour deal, the offer of a referendum is there but will only include No deal or the Labour deal as ballot options. This is how it is written. This is why people are rightly still not happy with the wording/stance
You're right, I'd read the joint Union statement and not the Labour one.
That's a pain, and slightly insulting, it's almost seen as fact now that ref2 will be won by remain so they're not willing to offer us the same voice about their deal, only the Tory one.
I won't change my voting intention, I have thrown my lot in with the Lib Dems.
Specifically (emphasis mine):
What would Labour’s Brexit policy be in its GE manifesto?
… we need a credible deal to stop from crashing out with No Deal – and that deal should be put to a public vote along with the option to remain.That quite clearly says to me “Labour deal vs remain” as the two options on any referendum if Labour are in power.
Well THAT is very good news, I'd personally like to see it stated a little more officially that via a tweet of a document that was supposed sent to all Labour MPs, but as it's only an issue in the event of a GE, displayed clearly, without ambiguity in their manifesto, and I might trust them on it.
when you can argue about what they mean its not a clear message
unless Labour come out & say that
'Brexit will be a disaster for UK workers & the entire country we are unconditionally calling for a 2nd ref & want to remain'
they will not win back votes lost to the lib dems/greens and thats about 30% of their 2017 voters
likewise the 10% who voted Farage wont come back regardless
theyve fluffed it
& polls are now consistently showing them in 4th place
http://britainelects.com/2019/07/09/boris-wont-improve-tory-electoral-fortunes-poll-suggests/
That said, I still won’t vote for them as long as they’re lead by a Socialist. I just don’t believe in it.
It does exist – the NHS
The NHS is a publicly provided service. That isn't socialism. All systems have publicly provided services, even countries that have had far more right wing politics than the UK has had at any time over the last 60 years.
& polls are now consistently showing them in 4th place
I am not sure that is supported by the evidence although admittedly it is if you just pay attention to the blatherings of some fruitcakes.
The YouGov one which has become gospel to Binners and his fellow cultists doesnt match ComRes or Opinium.
Its actually a weird scenario since despite in theory the companies being close in methodology the Labour votes varies wildly.
That press release is just a horrible read. Answer the questions straight and actually give us an answer.
Labour brexit policy vs Liberal Democrat brexit policy
Mr Corbyn said Labour was now the "party of choice" when it came to Brexit.
Presumably, everyone can choose what they think Labour's policy is, because even Labour itself doesn't know.
But he does not say what he would do if he won a general election and was placed in charge of the Brexit process.
BBC story, where decisive Jeremy tells us exactly what he'd do... or not.
The NHS is a publicly provided service. That isn’t socialism.
That's precisely what it is. As you point out, every developed country has publicly-provided services to some degree, with the policies of various political parties appearing along a continuum. I'm not aware of any major party (including Labour) advocating full state/ collective ownership, or full privatisation of goods and services. It's a nonsense to describe Labour in the terms you have, when all they're actually proposing is mainstream social democratic policies that are pretty common across much of Europe.
It's interesting that those who oppose the idea of public or collective ownership of services become keener on it when it's of benefit to them personally.
So picking through this Labour policy is:
2nd ref and campaign on remain when in opposition
2nd ref with choice between Labour deal and remain if they win a GE. With deferred decision on what Labour will support
On the 2nd point I think that Labour would always have to offer a Labour deal v remain or it would be no deal and remain. Following that logic it would be slightly bizarre to seek a new deal and say unequivocally in advance they wouldn't support it.
Thoughts....?
As others have pointed out, Corbyn wants Brexit as the EU conflicts with his nationalistic socialism as opposed to the alternative international socialism.
Therefore a labour deal is a smokescreen, they know that it will never come to that. Whilst the EU have stated as much.
Basically nothing has changed.
Corbyn still wants Brexit but it must be a red Brexit.
Labour are still a pro-Brexit party.