Stepping away from petty nitpicking over semantics for a moment, I am quite pleased to see Ruth Davidson speak up for a pragmatic solution to the impasse.
Her statement is not going to be well received by the Conservative backbench Brexiteers, but if SNP, Labour, Tory moderates and Plaid are aligned on this then I wonder what the next steps are, will there be emergency debate in Parliament?
The real problem for May is of course that her credibility is shot with the EU negotiators now. She offered them a deal, they accepted it than she retracted her offer. Who is going to believe a word she says after that?
I fail to see the relevance of Schengen area to the U.K./Ireland border situation
Yeah I dont see it either. however you were the one who brought up the Lichtenstein border with the EU.
She offered them a deal, they accepted it than she retracted her offer.
This.
The EU now wait again for us to sort out internal differences between home nations with devolved powers and agreements in place. I can see why they think the UK really doesn't know what it wants or how to achieve it...
only the real lunatics would want to turn the UK into economic scorched earth out of spite.
You've seen the people we're talking about here, right?
They've continually doubled down on the 'no deal is better than a bad deal' BS
They actively want no deal, so that in the resulting economic meltdown they can then effectively declare economic Martial law*, and force through policies that would have been unthinkable under anything remotely resembling normality. They're unhinged hard-right zealots following some Ayn Rand inspired 'Creative Chaos' theory, and May is letting them call the shots because she is so pitifully weak
* They have already ensured themselves the [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/repeal-bill-latest-news-eu-law-corrections-no-commons-vote-mps-say-theresa-may-conservatives-labour-a7839016.html ]powers to do this[/url]
She offered them a deal, they leaked a draft version and in doing so scuppered it
FTFY
Nope - thats not how it happened. You should know that.
they leaked a draft version
You have evidence of this?
May had cerdibility with the EU?
Pity at best, you cant look at Johnson, Davis Mogg etc and not feel a bit sorry for her!
You have evidence of this?
The fine upstanding Sammy Wilson said it on the radio.
[quote=tjagain ]Ninfan - so no answers then.
You were expecting some? I do at least understand what I'm going to get when "negotiating" with ninfan, and set out my positions accordingly!
[quote=tjagain ]Nope - thats not how it happened. You should know that.
Maybe he does. Which would make that statement...
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These are the tweets that caused the problems, the first set alot of hares running in the press, despite it being retracted four minutes later. The DUP decided to shoot those hares.
if only the hand-wringing lefties of stw had predicted that getting in to bed with the DUP was a stupid idea....
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/conservative-coalition-with-dup
I do wonder how an RTE reporter got that exclusive draft wording...
The DUP decided to shoot those hares.
You can imagine the phone call after reading those tweets - “we’re being ******* done over here, you can poke your agreement”
What appears to be funnier is the gradual, sinking realisation in the Irish govt that the EU is going to compromise on something tha5 doesn’t give them the guarantees that they said were a ‘red line’. Still, I suppose a 40bn hole in the EU budget was always going to take precedence over the inhabitants of craggy island
What appears to be funnier is the gradual, sinking realisation in the Irish govt that the EU is going to compromise on something tha5 doesn’t give them the guarantees that they said were a ‘red line’. Still, I suppose a 40bn hole in the EU budget was always going to take precedence over the inhabitants of craggy island
wow do you dislike the irish that much?
An the Irish hold a veto over any deal
An the Irish hold a veto over any deal
Minor detail.
Although unfortunately apparently so do the religious dinosaurs from the DUP thanks to the maybot strong and stable leadership.
You can imagine the phone call after reading those tweets - “we’re being ******* done over here, you can poke your agreement”
Not really, politicians are concerned about the perception of the deal as much as the detail, the press were reporting that the DUP had been sold out and that perception is clearly unacceptable to them. Everyone will grandstand for a few days to prove they can't be pushed around, talks will hang by a thread, and then an agreement will be reached.
Good article in today's Guardian by Fintan O'Toole, stating the bleeding obvious conclusion to those Brexit idiots who still refuse to face up to reality....
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/04/hard-brexiters-britain-weaker-ireland-brexit-talks-irish-border-lesson ]Hard Brexiters have just discovered Britain is weaker than Ireland[/url]
[i]It was always stupid to turn the border issue into a face-off between mighty Britain and little Ireland. But that’s how the hard Brexiters and their Tory press allies chose to construe it.
Having done so, they might now ask themselves: if, for the first time in 800 years, Ireland is proving to be in a much stronger political position than Britain, what does that say about what Brexit is doing to Britain’s strength? It is being forced to accept what it claimed to be unacceptable, not because Ireland has suddenly become a global superpower but because it has the unflinching support of EU member states, the European parliament, and the EU negotiating team. There might be a lesson in there somewhere for a country facing a future without the allies it has long taken for granted.[/i]
Yorkshire is having none of these issues.
Yorkshire is having none of these issues.
What? You mean Lancashire is paying for the wall?
What? You mean Lancashire is paying for the wall?
We already have our wall in York, just needs patching in places...
According to the news, David Davis has suggested that "Regulatory Alignment" could be applied across the UK as part of compromise. Apparently, this isn't the same as a wholesale adoption of EU regulations.
Would someone be able to explain the difference and how it would work?
Would someone be able to explain the difference and how it would work?
I think the theory is the UK's rules are not the same as the EU's but the outcome is, where necessary.
Th G also notes yesterday's doc said this would happen regardless of the outcome of trade talks (but for the whole UK is a condition of ...).
Lots of semantic fudge. It's another cave-in basically.
[i]EU official on DD's suggestion that whole of UK will align with EU regs. "The UK will not have any say on the decisions taken in Brussels and will basically implement them without having any influence over them... it makes the UK kind of a regulatory 'protectorate" of Brussels'".[/i]
I like the phrase regulatory protectorate.
It's what the leavers would have wanted.
You could have alignment if you had equivalence which is the test often used in trade deals.
I'm now reappraising the whole situation
Theresa May is actually the most devastatingly effective and cunning politician this country has ever seen.
She campaigned for remain, but once the vote was lost, she set about accidentally becoming prime minister, then she appointed the 3 biggest vainglorious clowns imaginable to sort out the details of Brexit.
She tried her damnedest to get her party booted out before they could do too much damage, by running the worst campaign anyone had ever seen. But she didn't bank on the labour party and Jeremy Corbyn. So despite her best efforts it was on to plan B... letting the Brexiteers just get on with it
Fast forward to now, as her deliberately contradictory shambles leads to the abandonment of the last of the laughable red lines
So... we're staying in the single market, staying in the customs union (but we'll refer to that as something else), which will involve paying into the EU budget and retaining freedom of movement
Theresa... we salute you! 😀
Thanks mattjg.
So hypothetically, we would go to the EU and ask "can we apply these regulations which are mutually agreed?" to which the answer could feasibly be "No, you need to revise the regs to meet a minimum standard", thus the stronger partner in the relationship gets to dictate the rules?
That would explain the caveat about this being applicable only in event of a trade deal being agreed.
[edit] Thanks also mefty for the nicely summed up sentence.
Like ... our bananas have the same bend as their bananas but they measure in degrees but we use radians?
thus the stronger partner in the relationship gets to dictate the rules?
there is no partnership. they set the rules we comply.
retaining freedom of movement
Good, retention of my FOM, & especially for my kids, is my red line.
Theresa May is actually the most devastatingly effective and cunning politician this country has ever seen.
Haha!
I can't help but feel that we missed an opportunity of a lifetime by not electing Lord Buckethead.
there is no partnership. they set the rules we comply.
Kind of where I was going with this...
...now, sooner or later someone will have the radical idea that if we become a member state of this trading bloc, we can influence the rules from within, no?
...now, sooner or later someone will have the radical idea that if we become a member state of this trading bloc, we can influence the rules from within, no?
yes but that requires the other members of the bloc to give up a bit of their precious "sovrintee".
obviously that would never happen, the nation state is king!
[i]if we become a member state of this trading bloc, we can influence the rules from within, no? [/i]
Who would let us join after how we've behaved this time?
but we're already in it!
phew that's OK then, nothing to see here.
there is no partnership. they set the rules we comply.
Not how equivalence works. Barnier when the boot was on the other foot:
Where the rules of another country are comparable and consistent with the objectives of US law, it is reasonable to expect US authorities to rely on those rules and recognise activities regulated under them as compliant.”
Mefty - two similar sized economies talking. Not like the EU and UK.
They will set the rules. We’ll follow. Of course in theory this won’t happen. In practice it will.
In some sectors (electric vehicles for example) there is s lots of concern that is already starting to happen (regardless of us having a couple of car plants).
They agreed the same with Canada
Thx Mefty.
Presumably that means the complier playing tag-along, and continual equivalence testing?
Ultimately the complier has to have the same outcome to any tests, no?
So there would need to be a supranational court of law to arbitrate?
It won’t happen in reality.
Q- Whats the difference between the Tories negotiating Brexit and a piece of paper?
A- theres a limit to the number of times that a piece of paper will fold
So there would need to be a supranational court of law to arbitrate?
Dispute resolution will be part of any agreement, but the WTO plays an extensive role in trade dispute resolution. My impression is that you look at whether the regime achieves the agreed end result or purpose - this is also how EU directives work - there may be different ways of achieving that result so it isn't automatic that you have like for like regulation.
One piece of serious but (very) blue sky thinking that was put forward to get around the customs union mess is if the UK contracted with the EU to run the EU border on its behalf. So goods continue to enter the EU at Harwich, Southampton, Heathrow etc. and the new "international" borders at Dover, Fishguard, NI etc. are treated as if they were intra EU.
If the UK adopted the same customs tariff as the EU - and there is no reason why it wouldn't, it would mean business as usual, as far as Customs borders are concerned.
It would all hang on the will of UK and EU politicians to try and make sense of this mess though.
