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If Corbyn himself came to visit you and told you he intended to hold a referendum and support remain you wouldn’t believe him.
He could tell me anything he likes, he's clearly got no intention whatsoever of actually doing it. That should be screamingly obvious to all but the most terminally deluded by now. Isn't the latest line "we'll look at it again at the party conference in September", as the can gets hoofed down the road yet again?
He's like a teenager telling his mum he'll definitely tidy his room tomorrow
These are the the word as used by Corbyn
“I have already made the case, on the media and in Dublin, that it is now right to demand that any deal is put to a public vote. That is in line with our conference policy, which agreed a public vote would be an option, a ballot paper would need to contain real choices for both leave and remain voters. This will of course depend on parliament"
I wouldn't want to go to a bookies with a fiver on Labour having a "we'd like to stay in the EU please" as an option on any ballot based on that statement. It says to me; there will be a public vote and the questions on it will vary according to whether it's a Labour or Conservative Govt, and that there will be choices.
I'm not so naive as to suggest that it's a resounding clarion call for Labour to back a remain option.
I have already made the case, on the media and in Dublin, that it is now right to demand that any deal is put to a public vote. That is in line with our conference policy, which agreed a public vote would be an option, a ballot paper would need to contain real choices for both leave and remain voters. This will of course depend on parliament
Well at least it now says "Any deal" which includes a Labour deal. However "real choices for both leave and remain voters." is not clear enough as his definition of a real choice may differ from mine.
Should England simply leave the UK for a "clean" Brexit?
As the inevitable draws closer, speculation grows as to what will actually happen to the components of the UK.
In some Conservative circles it is being suggested that England leave the Union so that it can have a "clean" Brexit, thus leaving a rump UK still in the EU. Some wags have suggested the Scottish govt would refuse them permission to do so*.
As far as England and Scotland are concerned, they are united by an international treaty between the 2 countries. So just as the UK can leave one union (EU), so can either of the parties leave this union.
Now bear in mind the Act and Treaties of Union is a Union of 2 EQUAL PARTNERS.
It is also a condition of Union that one partner cannot subjugate the will of the other. (That would mean they are NOT equal, which is clearly the opposite of the Act's Wording).
So could the Scots really stymie a "clean" Brexit for an independent England?
.
.
.
*Not at all likely unless Scottish Labour, Conservatives, and LibDems united and managed to make the SNP and the Greens disappear. 🙂
If Corbyn himself came to visit you and told you he intended to hold a referendum and support remain you wouldn’t believe him.
I would believe that he had said it, if I heard him say it. It wouldn't have to be in person, a press conference would do just fine. But he hasn't said that yet though, has he? Will he? Hopefully. Maybe. Possibly. We wait…
Well at least it now says “Any deal” which includes a Labour deal.
Does it? "Demands" suggests the act of the opposition. Where have you seen him say that a Labour government would hold a referendum?
Should England simply leave the UK for a “clean” Brexit?
In the event of the Tories pushing through a no Deal, that would surely signal the end of the union. It'd have too. There's no way that the Scottish and Irish are going to just allow themselves to be pushed out of the EU by a bunch of posh-boy, xenophobic, far-right racists in Westminster.
The main factor in that would be that, ultimately, I really don't think an ERG-led Tory government would actually care if they left. Everything must now be sacrificed on the altar of Brexit, and I think they'd see Ireland being reunified as simply solving the problem of the backstop, and they've never really given a toss about Scotland or NI anyway (or Wales, the Midlands, the South West or the north, if they're honest.)
I mean... what are they going to do? Send the troops in?
There was a good article on this in the Guardian the other day
Boris Johnson’s full English Brexit could rip the union apart
Does it? “Demands” suggests the act of the opposition.
Which is exactly where they'll stay if remainers split the anti-tory vote by voting for the libdems in seats where they have no chance of winning. Just as in the 2010 election, vote libdem, get the tories, and ironically a no deal brexit.
The lib Dems are now the anti Tory vote. It's voting labour that will split it.
I mean… what are they going to do? Send the troops in?
No need. Mark Francois was in the TA don'tchaknow
vote libdem, get the tories, and ironically a no deal brexit.
So, the labour party making itself completely unelectable through the sheer rudderless ineptitude of Corbyn and co is everyone else's fault, is it?
They'll bear no responsibility for us being landed with another Tory government?
As many, many people have said, over and over again on this thread, we won't vote for a pro-Brexit party, as we'll have the '80% of the electorate voted to honour the will of the people' bollocks thrown back in our faces by the Tory's and Labour, so **** the pair of them!
That's not our fault. That's the fault of Corbyn and his pitifully dithering 'constructive ambiguity' and his total and utter inability to actually oppose the government or build any kind of consensus.
I don't know if you missed the recent election results or the even more recent polling, but former labour voters are deserting the party by the million, and that exodus is only going to continue while 'constructive ambiguity/wishy-washy fudging' continues
Given the amount of Tory voters who are going to vote for the Brexit party, my vote will be going to a party that is unambiguously anti-Brexit. And that certainly isn't the labour party. Not under its present shambolic leadership anyway.
The lazy, complacent arrogance of Labours 'they've nowhere else to go' attitude to its voters makes it even less appealing
I'm not even expecting a quote from Corbyn saying that Labour will campaign for Remain. I just want to see this statement that Labour policy is now for a Remain option in any ballot.
27 hours and I'm still waiting...
everyone else’s fault, is itv
Lexiters, Brexiters...always blaming someone else.
So, the labour party making itself completely unelectable through the sheer rudderless ineptitude of Corbyn and co is everyone else’s fault, is it?
I'll take an inept labour party over the tories any day. I actually have no problem with people voting for the libdems, but doing so in the knowledge that in many seats it'll improve the chances of the tories winning is beyond the pale.
These aren't normal times Daz. As the recent elections have shown. The Lib Dems have taken a huge chunk of the Labour vote, and are now polling above them, and the Tory's are shipping millions of votes to the Brexit party who are now polling above them
So at any upcoming General Election actually voting for the party who represents your interests will count more than it ever has before, because the traditional to me/to you two-party duopoly is now totally borked!
So if you want to vote for an inept, incompetent pro-Brexit party then you have a choice of three. The recent polling shows that a fairly hefty chunk of the electorate won't be doing that (as the many voices on this thread prove). So the pro-Brexit vote is split between 3 parties, giving the Lib Dems an opportunity they have never ever had before
Thus the backwards-looking tribalism of previous elections looks even less fit for purpose than ever. So maybe you slavishly re=turning to an inept, pro-Brexit labour party actually makes you part of the problem that will deliver a Tory Government?
I’ll take an inept labour party over the tories any day. I actually have no problem with people voting for the libdems, but doing so in the knowledge that in many seats it’ll improve the chances of the tories winning is beyond the pale.
And there we have it. Not only will Labour blame Brexit and the resulting fallout on the Tories, it'll also be the fault of those dastardly LibDems for actually having a clear, pro-Remain policy.
These aren’t normal times
They're a lot more normal than everyone here thinks. Outside of this brexit obsessed bubble there are huge numbers of people who are sick to death of it and they will vote on the same issues they always have, and the additional one of once again not being listened to by politicians.
As with all other elections the main thing for people like myself will be removing or keeping the tories away from power at all costs. Even more so Farage. That's going to require the usual tactical voting. If you're lucky enough to be able to stop the tories winning a seat and voting with your first preference then all the better. For those who aren't there's a straightforward choice.
I'm not suggesting being tribal in voting labour, I'm suggesting being tribal in voting against the tories. In that respect the next election will be no different from any other, and given that a tory govt is the 100% certain method of delivering what we remainers desperately don't want, it's should be an easy choice.
Blimey! Even uber-Corbynite Owen Jones, in today's Guardian, has had enough of the nonsense:
‘Soft’ Brexit is dead. Now Labour must really embrace a people’s vote
The group now demanding that the party shift to a position of backing a referendum with remain on the ballot paper, no ifs, no buts, is far from restricted to Jeremy Corbyn’s internal rightwing opponents. It includes, in the shadow cabinet, longtime allies and leftist stalwarts John McDonnell and Diane Abbott as well as “soft left” members such as Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry. It takes in the pro-Corbyn Scottish and Welsh Labour leaderships, and the London mayoralty; key unions, such as Unison and the GMB; and Labour members, over half of whom didn’t vote for their own party in the European elections according to YouGov – which accurately predicted the results of the first and second leadership elections.
Did you read that last bit Daz? Over half of the labour party members voted for another party at the last election. That really is some achievement by Corbyn. Yet still, the position hasn't changed? And the express intention is that it won't change until September at the earliest? When we're due to leave the EU a month later.
Absolute blind, witless stupidity! And more pertinently: complete electoral suicide.
The group now demanding that the party shift to a position of backing a referendum with remain on the ballot paper,
Woah there. According to dazh and TJ, that's already the position. Have longtime allies and leftist stalwarts John McDonnell and Diane Abbott as well as “soft left” members such as Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry, pro-Corbyn Scottish and Welsh Labour leaderships, and the London mayoralty; key unions, such as Unison and the GMB; and Labour members, over half of whom didn’t vote for their own party in the European elections according to YouGov not been keeping up to date? - or are they also still waiting for the link?
Did you read that last bit Daz?
If you go back a few dozen pages you'll see that I said I was in complete agreement with Jones*, and always have been. My simple point is that voting lilbdem in tory-lab marginals is an exercise in cutting your nose off to spite your face.
*that was in a similar piece where he said labour were inevitably heading in a full-throated remain direction and it was pointless to resist.
The group now demanding that the party shift to a position of backing a referendum with remain on the ballot paper, no ifs, no buts…
Jesus, has Owen not been listening to TJ & Dazh…? That already is the position… Jeremy said so, in a clear and unambiguous way… oh… or perhaps Owen just "wants to believe" otherwise, for some reason, eh Northwind?
🤷🏻♂️
Heres an interesting article, with some even more interstinger graphs.
Could explain Corbyns position somewhat.
That is interstinger…
It should be noted that under all scenarios this pro-Brexit Labour defectors group remains roughly the same.
Which is what I've been saying for ages. Labour's Brexit policy can not win back many voters who support us leaving, no matter what they do. There is however still the opportunity to win back millions of voters who support us remaining (but not as many as if they had changed policy before the local & European elections… any policy shift now is too late for many… unless, as that article suggests, there is also a change of leader).
Blimey! Even uber-Corbynite Owen Jones, in today’s Guardian, has had enough of the nonsense:
Owen Jones has always been remainer that accepted the result.
It's possible to like one thing and not another at the same time.
And Binners the polls are changing all the time you are weeks behind.
20 years of talks to get to a deal today. They must have not believed hard enough.
https://twitter.com/dw_europe/status/1144614042880925698
Edit @ rone.
Well, if you have one that shows leavers aren't going to vote brexit party, and remainers haven't f'd off to parties with clear remain positions, let's have it.
The vote isn't only against the Tories now. I don't know how daz can reference farage and not acknowledge the party and their likely participation in any ge. The Tory's vote, as is labour's, is split with brexit party. Remainers will vote for parties with a clear remain message. If you plan to vote tactically, as things stand, vote in such a way that the vote is not split between green and lib dem.
From the New-statesman article that mattyfez linked (great find, thanks for sharing)
Between Boris Johnson, Theresa May, Jeremy Corbyn, Keir Starmer, Jo Swinson, Tom Watson, Nigel Farage and Jeremy Hunt, Corbyn is the least trusted to do what he says on Brexit by the general public as a whole (73 per cent do not trust, 17 per cent trust).
That's pretty damning
Bbc news now. 8 tories nutters being interviewed...dear god I work with one of them 🤣🤣🤔
Meanwhile the English Independence movement seems active.
Who's behind it?
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Meanwhile the English Independence movement seems active.
Who’s behind it?
You!
athgray
You!
🙂
I don't believe in interfering in another country's democracy,
But you must admit, it makes sense.
36 hours and no link. I'm beginning to think that TJ has gone up the allotment and not returned.
I don’t know how daz can reference farage and not acknowledge the party and their likely participation in any ge.
I've acknowledged them many times, in fact I'm more worried about them than the tories as 1 brexit party MP is too many as far as I'm concerned. Farage is on record as saying he'll work with the tories and even go into coalition with them. The tories + Farage are in pole position to win another election. If a Boris + Farage coalition taking us to no deal isn't enough to scare remainers into voting tactically for labour and the lib dems where it makes sense then I don't know what is. As I've always said, we get the government we deserve, and this current obsession and unthinking polarisation around brexit will be no different. I'm sure PM Boris and Chancellor Farage will be a price worth paying for ideological purity.
I don’t believe in interfering in another country’s democracy,
But you must admit, it makes sense.
Your earlier link assumes Scotland wishing independence from the UK is absolute fact. The most recent national vote on the issue said otherwise. All we have at the minute is an opinion poll.
Also, I assume there would be massive legal issues regarding a country leaving the EU and breaking up, leaving a much smaller portion within it. Are there any credible links to say this arrangement is legal and acceptable to the EU.
In reality it's a pipe dream and an awful idea.
athgray
...I assume there would be massive legal issues regarding a country leaving the EU and breaking up, leaving a much smaller portion within it. Are there any credible links to say this arrangement is legal and acceptable to the EU.
In reality it’s a pipe dream and an awful idea.
Well I'm neither Engllsh nor a Conservative so I'm not going to dig too deep into their business.
Nonetheless it's obviously an idea being bruited about.
leaving a much smaller portion within it. Are there any credible links to say this arrangement is legal and acceptable to the EU.
I’d wager there nothing credible, in as much as it hasn’t happened already, to suggest the EU would be ok with the scenario you’ve outlined. However, small nations are part of the EU, so assuming the UK, excluding England, met EU entry requirements then I wouldn’t see them having a problem. If anything, they would love it just to really put the boot into England, which less face it, is the source of the issue at hand
epicyclo
Subscriber
Meanwhile the English Independence movement seems active.
Who’s behind it?
Dunno but none of those things in the link are arguments for English independence, they're just arguments for having better governments.
allow themselves to be pushed out of the EU by a bunch of posh-boy, xenophobic, far-right racists
Are you sure? The referendum pointed to large areas of left wing, working class, ill-educated Farage-ites voting to leave.
No it didn't. Mostly older, financially stable people voted for brexit. Survey results were posted a few pages back.
I’d wager there nothing credible, in as much as it hasn’t happened already, to suggest the EU would be ok with the scenario you’ve outlined. However, small nations are part of the EU, so assuming the UK, excluding England, met EU entry requirements then I wouldn’t see them having a problem. If anything, they would love it just to really put the boot into England, which less face it, is the source of the issue at hand
Since the UK is at an impasse on Brexit, using the logic above, the vote could be re-run but having the remaining EU countries vote on Brexit rather than the UK in the positive, forward looking democratic hope to have them 'put the boot in'.
48 hours and no link.
Perma-flounce in progress?
Project fear is in full effect.
How very ****ing dare a future leader of this country suggest that a no deal brexit will deliver anything but gold plated unicorns?
No one will need bailing out everything is going to be amazing.
I'm even thinking hunt might be a bigger **** than dumbojo.
Tory leadership: Hunt proposes £6bn no-deal bail out for farmers and fishing industry - live news
At least he seems to have a plan of some sort.
Tory leadership: Hunt proposes £6bn no-deal bail out for farmers and fishing industry – live news
Thank god for the magic money tree. Also why exactly are those two industries on the list for the bail out considering how many of their members were in favour of leaving.
Thank god for the magic money tree. Also why exactly are those two industries on the list for the bail out considering how many of their members were in favour of leaving.
Because this whole adventure is for the benefit of the people who voted leave. If they don't get what they want, it's undemocratic, remember? Remainers are the enemy of the people.
Er… why spend billions bailing out fishing and farming if we are leaving because being outside the EU will benefit these industries?
Does anyone know why we are leaving?
Er… why spend billions bailing out fishing and farming if we are leaving because being outside the EU will benefit these industries?
You traitorous remoaner Kelvin!
Asking these questions of logic and common sense. There's no space for people like you in Brexit-ville where the sun always shines. 😉
Says it all really. They don't just own the media, they own our politicians with their "donations" and directorships...
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Well, if this all ends up with Tate&Lyle & Belize farming exporters paying higher import taxes (rather than the zero tariffs they have spent millions buying politicians and campaigning to try and achieve), I'll enjoy a small bit of the fallout. If we're going to go full in on becoming a more protectionist and subsidy driven economy, we should specifically target those that have pushed us into this corner. Tighter regulation of anyone with a controlling interest in an insurance company should be part of that as well. Let's push on with Brexit, and at the some time set out to ruin those who pushed us into it to try and make gains for themselves at the cost of the rest of us. If all this misplaced nationalism and anti global nonsense results in a draconian approach to a UK owned and controlled media… bring that on as well. Make them all pay… take back control.
Does anyone know why we are leaving?
Come on Kelvin, you know why. We're leaving because for decades normal people, both working and middle class, on left and right, feel they have been ignored and f***** over by a system which is only interested in a tiny few. They got a chance to strike out at that system, which they did. Instead of blaming the people who voted for it, you might want to think about that graphic above and then ask how it got to be like that and who is proposing to bring in fundamental economic and political reform to redress balance. Clue: It's certainly not the liberal democrats.
Instead of blaming the people who voted for it
Who blamed the people who voted for Brexit? Not me. I blame the super rich (including those who became Belize ambassadors to avoid scrutiny, or own their own island to avoid tax) who campaigned for us to Leave, and now claim that we shouldn't be allowed another vote, because they fear people may not vote the same way.
I blame the super rich
We agree then. Apologies I had you down in the blame the racist gammons and thick northern oiks crowd. So which parties capable of winning power are looking to tax the billionaires and corporations and use that money to reform the market fundamentalist economy so that it answers to the people instead of a tiny few shareholders in the city of London?
Which parties are prepared to point out what Brexit really means, and allow us to stop it, if we vote to? And as for "capable of winning power", as things stand, I don't see any party forming a majority government if we have a snap election… so none of the parties look capable of winning power on their own.
And as for “capable of winning power”, as things stand, I don’t see any party forming a majority government if we have a snap election
Yes an overrall majority is looking very unlikely. However, despite the fantasies of many remainers and leavers our winner takes all electoral system means it's still very unlikely that anyone but the tories or labour will form the next govt. So which of those would you prefer? Or to put it another way, which one guarantees the result you don't want, and which one still holds out the possibly of it happening?
you might want to think about that graphic above and then ask how it got to be like that and who is proposing to bring in fundamental economic and political reform to redress balance. Clue: It’s certainly not the liberal democrats.
They can propose all they like, not going to get anywhere until a change of leadership.
So which of those would you prefer?
As things stand, I do not want be represented by either a Conservative or Labour MP, so would vote LibDem in this seat (SNP or Green if I lived elsewhere). Now, if Labour say that any government they were part of would hold a referendum with a Remain option, and the local candidate was behind that, they would win my vote in a snap General Election. Hopefully that is what will happen. Eventually. Maybe. Possibly. We wait…
As things stand, I do not want be represented by either a Conservative or Labour MP
Neither do I, I'd much rather have a Green MP, but that's not possible at this time.
so would vote LibDem in this seat
So what are the Lib Dems doing to end the austerity imposed upon the people who voted for brexit and change the system so that rich corporations like Facebook (who employed their former leader) pay the tax that normal people have to pay?
Do you not think that issues such as brexit cannot be solved until the system that caused it is reformed? The lib dems were cheerleaders and integral actors in the austerity imposed on the country over the past decade. They still defend it, which is ironic because it's the main thing that caused the thing they claim to be completely against. And they accuse others of wanting their cake and eating it!
Are you in a labour-tory marginal BTW?
I think the Brexit Party could win this seat, as it happens, as the vote will get split 5 ways, but I won't be voting Conservative (the most likely 2nd place party) to try and stop them.
I've said what Labour need to do to win my vote in a snap General Election. State that they would hold a referendum with a Remain option if they formed a government. I now think that even though that would win back millions of other voters as well, it won't be enough for them to win more seats than the Tories… I fear that now requires a change of leader… sadly… because they don't have the time or means to make that happen in time. What a mess. Deliberate time wasting and ambiguity hasn't proven to be some kind of masterful long game, unless the game was just about keeping control of an opposition party that is.
If we leave we're not going to have 2 old pence to rub together. You can have any number of policies that benefit the less well off, but if you can't afford to implement them, it's all so much pie in the sky. In the event of a general election this is the point I shall make to my labour mp. If Labour won't offer a people's vote and campaign in favour of remain it won't matter. The lib Dems are waiting with open arms for the votes of the majority of Labour voters disillusioned by Labour's 'position'.
If we leave we’re not going to have 2 old pence to rub together.
Maybe. But that's a problem in itself, because we're always being told there's not enough money to pay for schools, hospitals, humane benefits, investing in jobs, fighting climate change etc. But there's always money to pay off the DUP, to fight wars, to bail out bankers, to give tax breaks to the rich, and to pay for ill-considered political experiments like brexit. So it's little wonder that leave voters don't believe the politicians, civil servants and business leaders when they're told brexit isn't possible.
Brexit isn’t an ill-considered political experiment, it’s a far right coup
Brexit isn’t an ill-considered political experiment, it’s a far right coup
Enabled by the Labour party.
Enabled by the Labour party.
It's like a ritual chant from some weird cult. You'll all be burning effigies soon and speaking in tongues.
It’s like a ritual chant from some weird cult. You’ll all be burning effigies soon and speaking in tongues.
Well this is the #FBPE thread
It’s like a ritual chant from some weird cult.
What? Like, "Jobs First Brexit" ?
Still, at least you've stopped repeatedly telling people on here that Corbyn has already said that he has adopted as party policy what they, and most of the Labour movement, would like to see him backing.
Or even '80% of voters in the last election voted for a party pledged to respect the result of the referendum'
Have Labour changed tack yet? If they have did anyone send Len a memo?
Well this is the #FBPE thread
Hilarious that you felt the need to put an explainer in there. Keep up gramps.
we’re always being told there’s not enough money to pay for schools, hospitals, humane benefits, investing in jobs, fighting climate change etc. But there’s always money to pay off the DUP, to fight wars, to bail out bankers, to give tax breaks to the rich, and to pay for ill-considered political experiments like brexit. So it’s little wonder that leave voters don’t believe the politicians, civil servants and business leaders when they’re told brexit isn’t possible.
If we have a pot of cash to do all those things at the start of your rant, we have to divide that up and someone is always unhappy they haven't got enough, any clues how that fundamental problem should be fixed?
The bankers paid it back now, give or take.
If you don't give the rich some tax breaks they cheese it off to far flung principalities anyway.
Leave voters have believed some of our politicians, unfortunately that was Farage and the other nutters.
If you don’t give the rich some tax breaks they cheese it off to far flung principalities anyway.
Not if they have to pay the difference in tax between what they pay in the tax haven and what they would at home. The Americans have it right on this point. If you have an American passport you either renounce your citizenship or pay your tax.
Those able to avoid tax ****ed off to tax havens long ago and it's not reduced taxes that will get them to pay at home, it's the threat of losing their passports.
The first thing I'll do when I'm dictator is put and end to non-dom status of this bunch of ****s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_non-domiciled_status_in_the_UK
Have Labour changed tack yet? If they have did anyone send Len a memo?
TJ is writing it as we speak.
oh daz is back. Wonder if he's got that link for us yet?
To be fair to Magic Grandad, he has actually changed position
He’s gone from disengaged bystander, happy to sit back and let the Tory’s get on with Brexit, facilitating when necessary*, to now being actively hostile to anyone within his own party trying to stand in the way of it, and being as obstructive as possible, so as to stop anything being done by the Labour Party to prevent us leaving the E.U. in October.
If you still think Corbyn is anything other than a rabid Brexiteer, then you’re clearly in the advanced stages of denial. If you look at the journey he’s taken, he’s gone consistently in one Farage-esque direction. He might as well just join the ERG and have done with it.
* whipping his MPs to trigger Article 50, leave the customs union, and the single market
Just check the quote on the previous page, This is labour policy. A second ref on any deal with leave and remain options. announced but ignore by the press several weeks ago. I posted the direct quote.
Post it again. The bit where it says there is a Remain option on the ballot. Also send a link to longtime allies and leftist stalwarts John McDonnell and Diane Abbott as well as “soft left” members such as Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry, pro-Corbyn Scottish and Welsh Labour leaderships, and the London mayoralty; key unions, such as Unison and the GMB; and Labour members, over half of whom didn’t vote for their own party in the European elections according to YouGov, because they all missed it too.
4 days. Show us the quote.
Lol TJ, stop blaming the media for any on-going lack of clarity on Labour's position.
Have a look at Labour's own web-site: https://labour.org.uk/issues/labours-plan-brexit/
The ONLY time that page mentions a referendum is "respecting the referendum result" i.e. it's pro-Brexit and then just the usual fantasy of they'd negotiate a good deal.
You really expect to be taken seriously saying their position is absolutely clear and they fully support a second referendum? Rather than just making statements just to try and appeal to both sides of the electorate?
This is labour policy.
> sigh <
"All the right words, just not necessarily in the right order."
And you missed out "Demand a…" and "real choices for…" for a start… but thanks for your caveat free interpretation.
Yes because that is clearly what was said!
I am not the one making up fantasy positions here.
that it is now right to demand that any deal is put to a public vote
And what happens if we vote Labour into government? Do we get a referendum then? With a Remain option?
"A real choice for Remain and Leave voters" isn't the same as "a Remain option on the ballot paper". This must surely be clear to you.
Are longtime allies and leftist stalwarts John McDonnell and Diane Abbott as well as “soft left” members such as Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry, pro-Corbyn Scottish and Welsh Labour leaderships, and the London mayoralty; key unions, such as Unison and the GMB; and Labour members, over half of whom didn’t vote for their own party in the European elections according to YouGov also making up fantasy positions?
Labour respects the result of the referendum, and Britain is leaving the EU. But we will not support any Tory deal that would do lasting damage to jobs, rights and living standards.
From Labour's web-site. Are you telling me Labour is so disorganised that they can't update now supposedly out-of-date information on their own web-site when it concerns the single biggest political issue of our generation? They're either grossly incompetent and not fit to govern (any more than the Tories) or they're deliberately muddying the waters with conflicting statements about their Brexit position in order to maximise their voter appeal. That's not a bad strategy in a way but stop defending that position to those of us that only want to back a party with a clear pro-Remain or at least pro-second referendum position.
Indeed. There's a big difference between a 'Remain option' and 'options for Remain voters'.