If different individuals view democracy differently then something can be both an affront and not an affront at the same time.
Did we just poison another cat?
mt - I know. Not only was I part of the independence process, but I became its first elected leader to be born outside the boundaries of the three eternal Ridings.
They said that would never happen.
Of course BS works, it always has.
The sad thing is that it has become the norm. Politicians used to lie a bit, dodge questions etc,. whereas now they are now happy to just simply make stuff up.
And because the referendum was a one off vote with campaigns rather than parties (who have to deal with the lies they told) there seems to be no come back on the biggest liers
Mike 8)
Agreed IGM which is why I read the books of how they won immediately after the result.
It’s a challenge for sure. During the Scottish Indy debate when lying for effect really took off I asked Chris.Bryant and Ken Clarke why labour and Tories allowed Salmond to get away with bare faced lies. They both claimed that the modern strategy was not to engage with the lies but attempt to shape the narrative in a different way. I thought that this was a bit odd at the time. But it worked - just. When it came to Brexshit however we lost control of the narractive. The £350 lies was given oxygen on a daily basis and sadly it worked. The cost became a significant isssue despite the obvious BS that surrounded it
So perhaps Clarke and Bryant were correct after all.
But none of the above justifies trying to out lie the Brexshiteers IMO
a challenge THM, you probably missed this on the previous page
mikewsmith - Member
Well for a learning day if you want to help improve the class and civility of the debate how about you try and drop the remoaner/brexshiter/grown ups comments. It adds nothing to the debate.
IGM here is a good example
The BS is part of a 2 pronged attack -
First say something that you want that diverts from the real issues ...Then waste pages of discussion and time debating the finer details and abstract meanings, getting really keen on exact details while refusing to discuss the bigger picture issues, be that 350 million or the definition of austerity.
The austerity argument is exactly what mike unintentionally describes. A false idea is planted in people’s minds in order to move the core debate away from the real issue. That worked too
Without his sneering about everyone else how would we all know how superior he is?
Mike if you keep stating stuff that is untrue then you are going to get the response that is appropriate.
Making stuff up adds nothing to the debate. There’s a challenge for you
Democracy requires an informed electorate. Because of the 20+ year anti eu campaign from the press which is all based on lies and the lies from the leavers we did not have an informed electorate.
Final words on Austerity as it's just being used as a distraction to the debate - when 2 tory chancellors describe it as austerity then we might have to accept the definition has changed from your text book. END OF OT.
Next up some major issues for the UK government and the people of the UK to debate and work through. At this point ignoring the people and heading down the Brexit by ideology regardless of the consequences is not helpful.
you are going to get the response that is appropriate.
Call people remoaners, brexitshiters and by implication children and you kind of have to stop complaining if you feel insulted.
Mike - don't feed the troll
Ignoring the people - QED
We had a referendum where the promise was made to all that the result would be respected. The core question was do we want to remain members of the EU (and all that this entails). Since the result, every trick under the book is being used to ignore the people including out BSing the Brexshiteers. A remarkable achievement
But is it actually unacceptable?
Not should it be. Is it?
Ignoring a non-binding referendum to look after the best interests of the Country as a whole would be a small price to pay (and also the "grown-up" thing to do).
Since the result, every trick under the book is being used to ignore the people
By literally setting one moment in stone, then refusing to accept that there could be any change in opinion. You can't respect one thing then ignore everything after it.
If you booked a winter sports holiday and before you left you were told there's no snow.
Would you still go or book a beach holiday?
Obviously one of us would be there attempting to snowboard on rocks.
I think at this point we've had the supposedly best minds in the country spending a year and a half trying their hardest to work out how to leave in a bearable fashion and they've drawn a blank.
If the people voted for unicorns how much time and money would we expect the govt to spend trying to create them before giving it up as a bad job?
Obviously one of us would be there attempting to snowboard on rocks.
it is the will of the people
That’s exactly what you are doing mike
Note how the progress - admittedly very slow progress - is being denied. The on going lies about the divorce bill -again factually inaccurate - scare stories about the UK accepting everything when in fact a remarkable compromise in money has been negotiated - oh and on that there the idea that no one of intelligence is involved in negotiations.
This inflexible BS is repeated day after day and then you get upset when it’s poInted out.
Feel free to ignore the changing environment.
Lies and fabrication - we can see there is progress but it is painful, embarassing progress towards a humiliatingly crap exit.
What progress? We are exactly in the same position we were a year ago with the same issues that were flagged up then still in the way. OK pay has agreed to pay what we owe - I suppose thats progress but on the other issues of rights for citizens and irish border the same issues remain.
The rabids will not accept ECJ jurisdiction in any form and for the EU this is a red line and no solution is yet available for NI because there isn't one.
no solution is yet available for NI because there isn't one.
QED
Feel free to ignore the changing environment.
Yep I think we can all agree stuff is changing, from what was presented as a simple Yes or No decision it's becoming way more complex than that, there are a lot of different games going on and the chances of the promised land is evaporating so reality is hitting.
The UK will be paying the EU more money
The EU is moving it's jobs out of the UK
etc.
If you don't want to see the changing public opinion then that is up to you.
So... predictions for today in our surreal post-sense world?
As its a cabinet meeting this morning, most of whom appeared to no nowt in advance about Theresa's DUP-baiting show-stopper yesterday, I'm predicting a mega-flounce of one sort or another.
Either
A) Boris - just because at this glaringly inopportune moment for the country, this is just exactly the sort of thing the narcissistic, self-serving shit would do
B) David Davis - just seeing his opportunity to bolt for the exit before the whole shitshow implodes completely
C) Theresa finally having as much as she can take as she looks over the squabbling schoolchildren before her, and storming out with a parting "Do you know what? You lot ****ing sort it out then! I'm off!"
D) Damien Green - because the meeting was dragging on for a bit, and it'd been over an hour since his last hand-shandy
What do you reckon?
The usual shits will be positioning themselves ready for the inevitable Maybot implosion. After all, it's pretty much entirely her fault that the DUP is effectively sat at the cabinet table.
So not a) (he who wields the knife etc)
How about E) Chris Grayling resigns, no-one notices.
I reckon they will all sit round readjusting their prejudices and blaming anyone but themselves
They were talking about the Tories not the SNP
How about E) Chris Grayling resigns, no-one notices.
Or Grayling jumps off the roof and I open a beer.
How about they hang Gove and BoJo from the windows by their balls
Or Grayling jumps off the roof and I open a beer.
Both of these options do require Grayling to magically acquire a spine, though.
[quote=teamhurtmore ]They were talking about the Tories not the SNP
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The UK will be paying the EU more money
The EU is moving it's jobs out of the UK
The UK having to spend money on the stuff that the EU currently does.
I'm finding it difficult to dispute Ed Millibands analysis this morning on Twitter...
[i]What a ludicrous, incompetent, absurd, make it up as you go along, couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery bunch of jokers[/i]
Indeed 😆
He should stick that on a stone tablet if he's still got one lying around somewhere.
Nah I think somebody has carved 52% wwyl into it
Hows the challenge going mike 😉
Since the result, every trick under the book is being used to ignore the people including out BSing the Brexshiteers
Yes of course. I assume thats out BSing along the lines of "350 million". Still at least the remainers aint taking the enemy of the people line (which is a rather good for democracy dont you think?)
The one off vote is something favoured by various Islamic extremist parties, amongst others, where power via the ballot box is achieved once and then the options are shut down to block any reconsideration.
Remember st farage himself is on record that a 52-48 vote would result in him campaigning for a second referendum. Its just that being a hypocritical arsehole he quickly changed his mind when that 4% was in his favour.
What are you arguing for?
Is it different?
Politicians lying with inpunity is a problem for society. The legal system seems impotent so it goes on. It's also a problem on this forum too. there are serial liars and one serial accuser of lying where there is no lie.
I've been reporting posts with accusations of lying where objectively there was not lie and today I've had a response from the moderators. Thank you, whoever wrote it.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion provided they've not breached any Forum Rules. Fact-checking is down to individuals and your reporting of these types of posts really isn't helpful when we have a very active Forum to moderate. Thanks.
So there you have it, lying or accussing someone of lying when they aren't doesn't constitute negative use of the forum and isn't considered a personal attack by the moderator who took the time and trouble to reply to my reports.
If the moderators don't intervene, which one has now stated he/she won't, this thread is never going to rise above its current status of bitch fest and slanging match.
The thread that broke STW.
Thanks @cg. My step-father said exactly the same thing, and I think it's a reasonable position. Sadly what was not made abundantly clear is how far things have moved, and how irreversible the situation has become. Particularly with regards to regulation (medicines and aviation being closest to my heart).
When do we start speaking Norwegian? Because that's the deal we will end up with. There is no other solution acceptable to maintain the GFA - which must be protected above all else.
Of course which government will enact the final agreement remains to be seen.
edukator. Take my advice? Block the most obvious lying troll THM. Correct the others.
Not sure a Norway style arrangement is nearly close enough to solve the Irish issues at all. Customs union (of some kind) needed as well, and farming/food needs something special as well.
It’s isn’t kelvin
Another reason to reject the off the shelf proposals and work for one that specifically addresses our unique needs
The thread that broke STW.
Nope. Easy to use the forum and complete ignore this thread.
Also, the content of this thread reflects Britian as it currently is reasonably well. Plenty of my discussions with family and threads just as messy. Well, ignoring the tone of some here… the Internet allows people to play games rather than engage, in a way no one would bother putting up with face to face.
