[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Sigh - a referendum even if there is a Labour government? With a Remain option?

Yes - that is so Kelvin. Its been that way for a while now. Direct statement from corbyn several weeks ago.

Read this from Cruddas - (who IIRC is a blairite but not sure ) for an anlaysis of why labour is stuck in this bind
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/26/labour-working-class-heartlands-remain-brexit

Kelvin if you think there's not time for the labour party to debate brexit, how on earth is their time to spend 3 months deciding on a new leader, or the same one, as it will inevitably be? Also, do you think brexit can be stopped without the labour party? I'm afraid there is no choice but to be patient and allow labour to manoevre itself to a point where it can back remain and still retain some chance of winning the next election. If they can't, then we'll be at the mercy of Boris and Farage. Once they take us out with no deal the labour party can spend as much time as it likes fighting each other or deciding on a new leader for it won't make much difference.

Yes – that is so Kelvin. Its been that way for a while now.

No, it has not been, and still is not, that way… Corbyn has never said that a Labour government would hold a referendum with a Remain option. Never. He said it would deliver Brexit. Lots of talk on a "public vote" on any deal reached during this parliament… that has been the only move… even with that he won't say it should include any route towards staying in the EU. He still wants to push a policy as PM that potential Labour voters will not be caught out voting for again.

Kelvin if you think there’s not time for the labour party to debate brexit

I didn't say that. I said that they were delaying past the point where there would be enough time to replace the leader before a general election. Without the possiblity to replace Corbyn, there is no leverage to get him to respect the democracy of his party.

Wrong Kelvin - he clearly stated a public vote on any deal with remain and leave options. too little too late perhaps - but that is what he said. Its just doesn't fit your position which is why you deny it.

This is why I only dip in and out of this thread. The Corbyn haters make up such ridiculous nonsense

Go on then… point me to the quote where he said a Labour government would hold a referendum that included a Remain option. Take all day…

According to the released remarks, Corbyn told his colleagues: “I have already made the case, on the media and in Dublin, that it is now right to demand that any deal is put to a public vote. That is in line with our conference policy, which agreed a public vote would be an option.”

But he added that, “a ballot paper would need to contain real choices for both leave and remain voters.

good enough?

Not at all.

Only the opposition "demands"… he's not talking about what he would do as PM, if elected.

What is a "real choice", and what isn't?

Fudge, fudge, fudge.

Corbyn commits to referendum

"Corbyn repeated his pledge after the Euro elections that “it is now right to demand that any deal is put to a public vote”.

But he added: “A ballot paper would need to contain real choices for both Leave and Remain voters. This will of course depend on parliament. I will be hearing trade union views next week, and then I want to set out our views to the public.”

His position is pretty clear that it will be up to parliament to decide the question and that it must have options for both remain and leave voters. Of course I doubt this will be enough for you. You won't be happy til he's on live telly slicing his hand and taking a blood oath. And even then you'll still find something to moan about.

You won’t be happy til he’s on live telly slicing his hand and taking a blood oath.

I'll be happy if he commits any Labour government, if elected before we have left, to a referendum with an option to remain a member of the EU. I will vote Labour then. I don't even care if he commits the party to campaigning for Remain or not… in fact, on balance, I'd rather he campaigned to Leave, and allowed all others in Labour to campaign as they see fit.

Only the opposition “demands”

Last time I looked they were the opposition. When the next election comes, the first manifesto policy they'll need to decide is whether to commit to a new referendum either in some or all circumstances. As you well know that needs to be agreed by the party through democratic means (yes Binners, party democracy!) so he himself can't unilaterally commit to one now.

What is a “real choice”, and what isn’t?

Exactly what it bloody says for god's sake. Honestly this pedantry is ridiculous. He can't pre-judge the question of a new referendum as it's not yet up to him and it would need to be discussed and approved by the cabinet and then voted through parliament.

It's not being pedantic, it is being politically astute. He is doing everything he can to keep a Labour Brexit alive, and string along his party and what's left of its voters. The words are very carefully chosen. Read what they actually say, not what you wish they said.

Pot kettle black! thats just your interpretation. Its a long time since labour policy was for a labour brexit

Its utterly clear that its now for a second vote and that that will be for remain and leave. What is still to be decided is what position laboutr will take.

Really dude. don't let your hatred blind you to the reality. The party is plit pbadly and so are its voters.

Its a long time since labour policy was for a labour brexit

What's your definition of a "long time"? Up until very recently Labour (or Corbyn) policy was a referendum on a "damaging Tory Brexit" but not on a "jobs first Labour Brexit". I've asked you repeatedly on this thread if you thought that was a principled position. Strangely enough, my question always seemed to coincide with one of your many flounces.

Really dude. don’t let your hatred blind you to the reality.

There is no hatred, just the ability to rationally examine the words and position of someone who got me voting Labour again, but is now blowing the chances of his party being elected by continually ignoring the vast majority of its members and voters.

Here is an interesting article.

Pro Brexit MPs in Remain Constituencies

If there's one thing that's utterly clear to me from reading various people on here asserting over the last few pages that three entirely different things are utterly clear, then it's that whatever Labour policy is it's far from being utterly clear.

Labour policy is already for a second ref on any deal and has been for a long time now

Like I said the other day, my policy is that one day I'm going to go vegan one day. Seriously, I will. One day. I'm having gammon, egg and chips for my tea tonight, but you know.... one day

Have you seen what labour is presently polling at compared to the Lib Dems with their unambiguous 'bollocks to Brexit' position? Jezza can say he's committed to a second referendum as many times as he likes - with his face like an ISIS hostage video as he does so. We all gave up believing that shite about 6 months ago.

As with all politicians, don't listen to what they say, watch what they do. Or don't do, in this case

As you well know that needs to be agreed by the party through democratic means (yes Binners, party democracy!)

Brilliant! We'll have a chat about it at the party conference in September. Not like there's any urgency required or anything, is there?

Only I'll spend the time between now and then stitching up the itinerary so we won't actually directly confront the question, just as I've done at the last 3 conferences. We'll talk about Yemen, Venezuela, Israel and rural bus timetables and if there's any time left, then we might be able to get around to this whole Brexit thing

I'm sorry, but if you think that Jeremy Corbyn is going to do anything that might even possibly interfere or prevent Brexit then may I point you in the direction of my Nigerian uncle who has a raft of investment opportunities to make you a very rich man.

He's a Brexiteer. Pure and simple. Deal with it and move on. Like so many of us, former Labour voters have...

If there's any way to avoid this car crash, it won't be coming from the Labour leadership*, that's for sure

* the word is used figuratively in this instance, etc, etc....

If a 'real choice' for remain voters means remain will be on a referendum, conversely it must also mean the 2018 populist no deal choice must also feature to satisfy leave voters.

Any politician who would contemplate offering economic obliteration as a choice is without a doubt not getting my vote.

Stand by folks. Chris Grayling is about to put out tenders for ferry services in the event of a no deal Brexit in October

I don’t own any ferries but I fancy a couple of hundred million quid so I’m going to have a punt

You’ll probably need something bigger. But then again...Grayling.

Reading some of the posts on here I just don’t understand why anyone, who’s biggest political concern is remaining in the EU, would consider supporting Labour instead of the Lib Dems?

Why are some so keen to keep supporting them despite their continued ambiguity? Is it like a football thing where you have got to support the same club for your whole life, even if they go a bit crap?

Any changes they are / aren’t / might be making to their Brexit policy are far too late in the day and come across, to me at least, as just a cynical way to try and get in to power.

They could have enabled a none no deal Brexit by supporting the Maybot’s deal but to me just seem more interested in weaseling their way into government.

The Tories are a disgrace for getting us into this mess but, frankly, I am even more annoyed at the way Labour have responded.

Cougar

Subscriber

If there’s one thing that’s utterly clear to me from reading various people on here asserting over the last few pages that three entirely different things are utterly clear, then it’s that whatever Labour policy is it’s far from being utterly clear.

I think Labour policy is clear. But there are people like kelvin that want to believe it's something else, and there are people like Binners who know fine well what it is but want to pretend it's something else. And there's the majority of the press doing the same. And half the time when they restate their current position we're told that it's a change of direction.

But there are people like kelvin that want to believe it’s something else

Utter bollocks. I have said what I 'want" Labour policy to be, and it's what most Labour MPs and members "want" it to be. But it isn't that, even if most of us wish that it was, and some people just want to "believe" that it is. I want it to be that so that I and millions of others can vote for Labour again, without our votes being mistaken as support for Brexit, and so that we can have the choice to stop Brexit if the country votes that way in a referendum, and so that we can have a Labour government and keep the Tories away from power for as long as possible.

I said nothing about what you want it to be. And I don't quite understand how you could misunderstand my words so completely tbh.

You want to believe that it's something else from what they're saying. And anyone that doubts it just has to read the last page tbh.

So is the next PM going to rehire all the staff who were dealing with the No Deal scenario?

I said nothing about what you want it to be

My point is, why would I want to "believe" that Labour policy is not what I want it to be, if in fact Labour policy is what I want it to be? That would be crazy. If Labour policy was what I want it to be (that a Labour government would hold a referendum including a Remain option, so that the voters can choose to stop Brexit if they want), I and millions of others could vote Labour again.

You want to believe that it’s something else from what they’re saying.

No, I fully understand what it is they are NOT saying, because I'm not an idiot. Thank you very much.

Being continually told that Corbyn has said things that people "believe" he has said, when he has said something quite different, even in the quotes they use to illustrate their conviction that he has said something he hasn't said, is utterly tiresome.

Reading some of the posts on here I just don’t understand why anyone, who’s biggest political concern is remaining in the EU, would consider supporting Labour instead of the Lib Dems?

I agree but I imagine it's tuition fees.

I never really understood why so many people got so upset over tuition fees and the Lib Dems.
If we never voted for parties that gave up on an election pledge, no-one would ever be voting again, because all the parties that have been in power have failed to implement something in there manifesto, surely.

You all just need to believe, comrades.

Ignore all the obvious evidence and trust in St Jeremy.

The bright new socialist dawn will soon be upon us. It might look like a right wing, neoliberal, post-colonial dystopian nightmare but, you know, at least it’s outside the tyranny of the EU

Labour's another referendum policy clearly isn't what Dazh and TJ tell us it is. Its a confusion marketing policy, an "it'll be fine" policy. Much like the brexiteer's Irish backstop policy or no deal leave policy. Not enough wool and too many eyes, I fear.

So Bojo is now saying there’s a million to one chance we will leave without a deal and the EU are saying (more or less) there’s zero chance there will be another deal on the table.

I’m really starting to think the whole thing might be cancelled now the chickens of reality are coming home to roost. The Tories just need to figure out how to dig themselves out of the abyss they have put themselves in.

... EU are saying (more or less) there’s zero chance there will be another deal on the table.

I hope EU stick to their decision otherwise they are spineless.

I’m really starting to think the whole thing might be cancelled now the chickens of reality are coming home to roost.

Let's hope both sides do not chicken out as I want to see history in the making.
🤔 😀

kelvin

Subscriber

My point is, why would I want to “believe” that Labour policy is not what I want it to be, if in fact Labour policy is what I want it to be?

Well, point of order, I don't think Labour policy is exactly what you want it to be. You talk in terms of this one clarification- this absolute black and white statement in the grey world of politics- that would mean you'd be willing to vote for them, but it doesn't feel like you'd be satisfied with it- only that it'd be just enough.

But beyond that, I don't know, is the answer. I mean, the simple answer would be blind prejudice, but you say it's not that and that rings true- though I reckon that if a different person said the exact same thing you'd be less scornful, I also reckon that you think this is deserved, rather than just doing it because Corbyn. You do often smell of disappointed true believer, and I get a pretty strong sense that you're unhappy that your guys don't just win because they're obviously right, and instead have to get down in the shit with the people that actually thrive there and choose to be there. I've still got a bit of that myself but I've tried my best to kill it. There's a viciousness in your posts but it usually feels like frustration and embitterment rather than nastiness. And you definitely seem to find satisfaction in being "politically astute" rather than cynical and telling everyone how clever you are to see the hidden truths and how foolish they are to think anything else could be true, but that's stating the obvious. And I think that all of these things, and probably more, are why you choose to believe that it's all a big trick and that if you trust Labour they'll betray you.

But hey, I don't know you, I can only go from what you choose to put on a screen. Well, you did ask.

Perhaps the most interesting idea that has been espoused on these pages came some moments ago from a Member whom one cannot remember...

If anyone could pull us back from the edge of this madness with any credibility from the Out crowd it would be Boris.

It has remained the one and only reason i have supported his candidacy thus far.

Not that i actually have a vote on it, like most of us don't, but i'm swayed on this - Boris could actually stop it all and make it sound like it was what was bound to happen anyway.

You can already feel it, can't you?

Shadow Cabinet loyalists (Dianne Abbott today) now openly criticising lack of move to backing remain.

and telling everyone how clever you are to see the hidden truths

No. This is exactly what TJ & Dazh keep doing. Telling us that Corbyn has said something he has not. That the fudge is in fact crystal clear. It is not.

Well, point of order, I don’t think Labour policy is exactly what you want it to be.

Well, why such interest in me shutting up and accepting that it is?

I just want the leader of the party to say that if Labour are elected to government before we Leave, then they will legislate for, and hold, a referendum with a Remain option. If he can't say that, for whatever reason, so be it… but I won't be told that he has said it when he hasn't, and that there is some kind of conspiracy, or that I have a "desire to believe", that he hasn't.

I also reckon that you think this is deserved, rather than just doing it because Corbyn.

This is is the crux of the issue with labour and remainers. Many want Corbyn to be something he isn’t and never will be, which is an enthusiastic supporter of the EU. The other issue is that the remain argument has gone the same way as leave, where it is a black and white position. It’s not possible any more to be pro-EU membership and against EU economic policies. There is no rationality left, and instead just religious believer or heathen viewpoints.

In a normal world, it should be possible to support remain and also be sceptical and critical about E.U. economic policies and political structures. Sadly we’re not in a normal world, we’re in a world of culture war schoolyard politics.

Many want Corbyn to be something he isn’t and never will be, which is an enthusiastic supporter of the EU.

I simply want him to say that a Labour government would hold a referendum with a Remain option. Nothing more. I do not want him to suddenly become a strong vocal supporter of the EU. As long as he allows other Labour politicians to campaign as they see fit, he can campaign for us to Leave the EU in that referendum if he wants.

Well that is what he has said

No. He hasn't. And I would welcome him doing so.

A ballot paper would need to contain real choices for both Leave and Remain voters.

What does that even mean? He could have said "a ballot would have to include a Remain option". By definition, any ballot would include a choice for both Leave and Remain voters, otherwise it wouldn't be a ballot, or it would only be balloting previous Leave voters.

And, given this is from a report of a meeting, not from him directly, when is the meeting with the Unions scheduled to take place and when does he announce his decision to the public?

What does that even mean?

One of the other weird things about this whole brexit debate is it's ability to make people forget how to interpret simple language. It's not like he's using big words or anything.

It was announced to the public a couple of weeks ago.

He’s a Brexiteer. Pure and simple. Deal with it and move on. Like so many of us, former Labour voters have…

With all due respect bud, dealing with it and moving on is not something you can remotely claim to have done. Though I rather wish you would.

One of the other weird things about this whole brexit debate is it’s ability to make people forget how to interpret simple language. It’s not like he’s using big words or anything

Another weird think about this Brexit debate is that people still can't see how simple language is used to be deliberately obscure. That statement doesn't really tell us anything useful.

It was announced to the public a couple of weeks ago.

Link?

I simply want him to say that a Labour government would hold a referendum with a Remain option

Yep, he just needs to say that. No need for a flowchart or any caveats. People who are Labour first and leave/remain second can then still support the Labour party on it's policies and intentions.

This Conservative government is too weak and divided to deliver a Brexit deal that meets the needs of our communities, already under huge pressure from years of austerity.

Labour has put forward an alternative plan to seek a close and cooperative relationship with the European Union, including a new comprehensive customs union with a UK say, close single market alignment, guaranteed rights and standards, and the protection of the Good Friday peace agreement in Northern Ireland.