GrahamS - don't let the facts get in the way.
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/long-term-international-migration-flows-to-and-from-the-uk/
[quote=ninfan ]Then why is it called "Total Debits" in the UK official accounts
Because accounting.
In the same way that a company account sheet will include movements of money which aren't real.
You still haven't worked out that I'm careful with my wording (though in this case I'm simply repeating the wording you used). A debit line on an account sheet doesn't imply any actual "sending" of money.
Credits/Debits
In/Out
Not too hard is it?
Apparently it is.
I think you are missing my point frank (and I provided a link too).
That being the case presumably you'd have absolutely no issue with people claiming that migration isn't an issue because folk are leaving the U.K. at a rate of 342,000 a year?
No, I confirm 100% that I would have absolutely no problem at all with you making that claim.
Because accounting.
In that case you appear to accept that in a narrow accounting sense it was a legitimate use of the figure (even if it was potentially misleading without mentioning the additional factors)
A debit line on an account sheet doesn't imply any actual "sending" of money
If you transfer £100 to my account tonight you haven't actually "sent" me anything, however some notional credits and debits will be applied to our accounts electronically, because, well, you know, accounting.
in normal parlance however...
I don't believe you ninfan.
If the Remain campaign put that on the side of a bus then you wouldn't have challenged it?
If they gave speeches in front of big posters with that figure emblazoned on to it.
You [i]wouldn't[/i] have said "Hang on that's not the net figure? That's very misleading"? Really?
Because I think you'd have been up in arms about #fakenews and snowflakes
No, ninfan it was a lie, at no time and in no way have we ever sent £350m a week to the EU - I'm guessing you don't understand accounting, because those accounts aren't saying what you seem to think they are.
The Leave campaign could have put what those accounts actually say on the side of the bus, but if you're typical of Leave voters, then it wouldn't have helped because none of them would have understood it.
edit to your edit: nice to see you doing semantics already - always a good sign that you've lost the argument, you know you've lost the argument and you're attempting to shift ground in your personal swamp.
How is it countered effectively then? I don't have a ready answer…
Everyone uses it, the "I don't believe in experts" is an equivalent example for the Remain side, it completely ignores the context of what was said. I think the one of the problems is that political journalists thrive on the controversial stuff and as TV News has moved to head to head with "XXX Correspondent" that the "gossip" side is more important. John Cole used to have file a short report.
why are you debating with him?
he knows he is just puling your chains and you are letting him
"people in this country have had enough of experts"
Much more telling in its original form.
No, ninfan it was a lie, at no time and in no way have we ever sent £350m a week to the EU
😆
How much does your employer pay you for a weeks work?
Tell me, could you put a figure to it, or would you tell me that "he doesnt pay me weekly, he pays me monthly"
Similarly, aggregating 52 weekly payments into 12 equal monthly payments wouldn't be a lie, would it?
Brilliant
Now, when you tell me that figure - would you tell me the Gross (before deductions) figure or the net one?
If you gave me the gross figure, would I be able to call you a liar because your employer never actually "sent" you that amount, he actually sent you a different, lower, amount due to tax, deductions, pension etc.
I reckon that most people wouldn't call that a lie
what say you?
in normal parlance however...
In normal parlance if you hand over a tenner for a cup of tea and they give you eight quid change then telling people the tea cost ten quid would be lying.
did you hand over a tenner, or hand over two quid?
[quote=ninfan ]How much does your employer pay you for a weeks work?
My employer [b]sends[/b] me the net. For somebody so hot on semantics you really do seem to struggle with this one - never in my life has my employer, my bank, my building society, companies I own shares in [b]sent[/b] me the gross amount.
Tell me, could you put a figure to it, or would you tell me that "he doesnt pay me weekly, he pays me monthly"
No, that's the sort of games you play - don't assume anybody else has the same standards as you, that's kind of insulting.
did you hand over a tenner, or hand over two quid?
I know these things can be hard to follow but....
In normal parlance if you hand over a tenner for a cup of tea...
In normal parlance if you hand over a tenner for a cup of tea..
Perfect, so, as we've now all agreed, we hand over 350 million a week, and get 100 million a week back
we send them 350 million, they send us 100 million
or thereabouts
as an aggregate figure of course, because we don't [b]actually[/b] do it every week, but everyone understands that
perfect
Glad we're all agreed
[quote=ninfan ]we send them 350 million, they send us 100 million
Is a lie. You're quite good at this, been practicing?
Much more telling in its original form.
Which isn't complete, you can watch the interview [url=
It is a misrepresentation, you can dance around and say he said it, but it is a similar tactic. The Leave campaign didn't spend alot of time arguing about the injustice, they just got on with their message.
I thought we sent them about £200mill per a week, and they sent us about £70mill per a week, plus we make billions more for ourselves than we would otherwise do, please we get to cut down on spending on our civil service. Sweet deal.
[quote=mefty ]The Leave campaign didn't spend alot of time arguing about the injustice, they just got on with their [s]message.[/s] lies
Is a lie. You're quite good at this, been practicing?
Quite. To use your own analogy; I don't get paid my gross salary and then hand back my tax and NI.
No argument that the campaign wasn't far more effective. Bullshit sticks. As I said, I have no idea how to counteract that… especially in a time limited campaign period. Still, once we're onto a real deal, rather than campaign slipperyness, let's hope people get their chance to have a say…The Leave campaign didn't spend alot of time arguing about the injustice, they just got on with their message.
To help the accounting process I will sell the border 100 Unicorns and and 500kg of pixie dust for 1bn quid, keep the 0.25bn quid change, buy a bus, write the same lie 50000 times and claim it really costs 10bn.
Clear now?
Bullshit sticks. As I said, I have no idea how to counteract that
Message discipline - you've learnt one lesson.
Net contributions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40860657
See PESA table C1 but note this is not reflective of [b]all[/b] inward funding received from EU so true net figure is smaller than that stated.
It's all about the 4 Fs
First
Find the
Fuggin
Facts
I don't get paid my gross salary and then hand back my tax and NI.
But, If someone asked you how much you got paid annually... would you answer with Gross or Net figures?
This stage of the negotiations was meant to be the easy part wasn't it?
Imagine when trade talks begin!
We seriously need a second referendum.
Both sides can now truly see what Brexit means. The reality, not the BS spouted on BOTH sides during the first referendum. This, this is Brexit.
Importantly it should also provoke the millions that didn't vote to get off their butts and make their views felt.
There is so much needs addressing in this country and Brexit is just sucking time, money and attention away from our real problems.
If it wasn't so badly damaging it would be "sanatorium funny."
We seriously need a second referendum.
If you lose that, how long before you start demanding a third referendum?
Bullshit sticks. As I said, I have no idea how to counteract that
Just remember that as demonstrated here repeatedly they will try and argue on any kind of technicality in order to avoid the majority of huge and important questions that they have no plausible answers to.
There will be a point where the negotiation team needs to present their best efforts to the government, people and parliament - all bets are off a that point but it's not hard to see a situation where a deeply unpopular solution that satisfies nobody needs some sort of legitimacy and consent to pass.
There is so much needs addressing in this country and Brexit is just sucking time, money and attention away from our real problems.
The EU has been the scapegoat for generations on failings from the UK government, the press still seem to think they are the great villain here
[quote=ninfan ]But, If someone asked you how much you got paid annually... would you answer with Gross or Net figures?
If only you hadn't written "the UK sends £350 million a week to the EU" then you might really be onto a winner with this argument. Only for those people who get paid by the government that is, obviously, and only then if you ignore the other huge flaws in that analogy. But then I know how you like to be pedantic with wording, so lets run with your analogy using the correct wording - if somebody asked you how much money your employer sends to your bank account which figure would [b]you[/b] give?
Or to put it another way and avoid the analogies, if I said that "the Bongo Bongo government sends 10 unicorns a week to the Lilliput government" how many unicorns would [b]you [/b]assume were actually transferred from Bongo Bongo to Lilliput? (BTW I'll take an avoidance of that question as an admission that the original statement is a lie, good luck).
ninfan - Member
We seriously need a second referendum.
If you lose that, how long before you start demanding a third referendum?
I wouldn't.
If after "all this" we still vote out then I would have to seriously question my own judgment of what is actually good for the people of this country.
Honest answer.
Cougs, I appreciate that you have long argued that we should not expect any more from you just because you are a mod, but did you have to prove this by descending so far to this level?
Cougar - Moderator
The pound tanking, tick. The only reason it didn't tank harder was because Mark Carney started printing money.
A perfect example of remoaner tactics. Take something that a thicko might not understand. Abuse it. Then post it as an argument (sic) to make them afraid. Very afraid.....
The pound fell then rallied and has been stronger recently despite the current challenges. But not for the reasons you [s]lied about[/s] suggest. Your “the only reason” claim is wrong on many counts. Not least in the timing of QE but also it’s effect.
Printing money ie increasing its supply, weakens a currency. So exactly the opposite of your claim. But never mind. You now have a chance to demonstrate what a wise man would do.
Over to you....
But classic remoaner tactic in the meantime. Make something up that a thicko might fall for. Exagerate it. Get it totally wrong. Demonstrate why remoaner tactics are exactly the same as Brexshiteers ie avoid the truth.
Then get rude...
And we haven't ****ing left yet you bloody madman.
QED.
But well done at taking “fitting in” to an extreme level and again demonstrating why we should not expect a mod to set an example. Bravo!
Why do people also fall for the £350m tactic that Bojo and ninfan have both recently fallen back on? Its neither true from an accounting nor a cash flow perspective. It is a lie. Nothing more, nothing less. Just ignore it. Don’t give it the oxygen it requires otherwise you allow their tactic to succeed.
Alternatively copy their tactic and post your own falsehoods. Your choice
THM get a grip, if you think that is rude then take a look at your condescending posts,over and over again.
At the moment the facts as they stand are that the government can't agree, they are being stopped by their bribed friends. Time is running out and unless the UK can find a way to speed up negotiations it's going to be bad.
If you can't accept that there is a distinct possibility that the final deal could be worse than remaining with no rebate or the affront to democracy that ignoring an advisory referendum would cause then you need to look at the mood of people.
Theresa "Mr Scott,we don't appear to have achieved escape velocity!"
Boris "Aye Captain,I think we're going to need a bigger bribe!"
My grip is fine mike. But thanks for the concern.
I have long argued that time is running out and that most of the remoaner BS and the Eu tactics make a bad outcome more likely.
I am firmly based in reality. For those of us in the UK that have to deal with the real impacts that is important.
Nice affront to democracy example to add to the list. Thank you ^ 2
I have long argued that time is running out and that most of the remoaner BS and the Eu tactics make a bad outcome more likely.
How exactly are members of the public expressing concern impacting the way DD is negotiating?
Anyone can express concern. It’s abusing the truth that I object to.
The whole debate is now dominated by two sides trying to out BS each other. And right now the remoaners are winning. An extraordinary turn around as I did not think it would be possible to out BS a Brexshiteer. But every day is a learning day - for those who are wise enough to make it so 😉 as cougs would say
Fortunately in the middle of this there are some grown ups making slow progress.
Well for a learning day if you want to help improve the class and civility of the debate how about you try and drop the remoaner/brexshiter/grown ups comments. It adds nothing to the debate.
At this point the UK is stuck with the fact that their was not adequate preparation on the NI border issue. The UK agreed to sort that out first so the problems lie on the UK side at the moment.
Facts would be nice, ideally provided by Cameron two years ago and we wouldnt now be in this mess.
[url= http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/12/04/ireland-chaos-brexit-will-either-break-may-now-or-it-ll-brea ]Ian Dunt sums things up v well[/url]
It’s abusing the truth that I object to.
And yet you do it so regularly.
THM - let’s assume your right on the BS war. And I have some sympathy with that view.
As someone noted earlier, the thing we learned from the referendum, the core learning, was that BS works.
If the referendum has no other lasting legacy, then we will still have a society based more on BS than anything else.
As Mefty said - lesson one.
So if BS is the way forward and if you say it often enough people will believe its true then....
Yorkshire has been an independent country for several years and enjoys its status as the most successful country of the former U.K.
The BS is part of a 2 pronged attack -
First say something that you want that diverts from the real issues
Then waste pages of discussion and time debating the finer details and abstract meanings, getting really keen on exact details while refusing to discuss the bigger picture issues, be that 350 million or the definition of austerity.
Hmmm. Another musing.
One cannot provide an affront to democracy. Not possible.
Democracy is a concept and lacks the capacity to be affronted.
What we really mean is an affront to an individual or group caused by something counter to their view of democracy.
Semantics you may say. Yes, but...
If different individuals view democracy differently then something can be both an affront and not an affront at the same time.
I think we need to be very careful suggesting unilaterally that something is an affront to democracy.
