[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

@ igm. it's universally agreed that our cosmopolitan country of Yorkshire welcomes commerinners as they add value to our culturally rich and independent minded peoples. Your leadership has been a great success, so much so Norway are sending a delegation to understand how they mimic Yorkshire. Their interest it would seem is the wealth of our simple Yorkshire folk, its successful companies and the massive sovereign wealth fund. It never ceases to amaze me that all those years ago when the Free Yorkshire referendum happened, the remoaners thought Yorkshire fail and never be able to pay our bills. It would now seem we have easily settled the UK divorce bill with so much brass to spare we are subsidising the the rest of the former UK, mind those rebellious Scots have always got there hand out for more. It has been sad to see the rest of the acrimonious break up of Great Britain (ha ha), but at least Wales has decided to become a Yorkshire protectorate, you turning away Northern Ireland for the same was very astute (much to argumentative). Perhaps we should have allowed Lancashire a fairer hearing rather rejecting there considerable money offer to become Yorkshire, I know its traditional to hate them (and we should respect tradition) but look at all that black puddin we could have had tariff free.

Another reason to reject the off the shelf proposals and work for one that specifically addresses our unique needs

Agreed. Unless you rule out all the existing means to achieve that, with no time to build something new even if 30+ other countries wanted to placate one country having an internal political crisis.

Get operating inside the SM & CU back on the table, get agreements based on that, leave " Brexitiers " to spend years trying to push us out of those arrangements, and " Remoaners " spending their time and energy trying to get us membership again. In the meantime, border people get on with their lives, supply chains are maintained… you don't get political closure on the Europe issue in the big two parties…BUT YOU NEVER WILL.

I'm finding it difficult to dispute Ed Millibands analysis this morning on Twitter...

What a ludicrous, incompetent, absurd, make it up as you go along, couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery bunch of jokers

Ed Miliband was on Richard Herrings podcast recently -it's worth a listen! There was quite a bit of Brexit discussion. (He's a remainer, but thinks we should honour the referendum result and leave)
https://www.comedy.co.uk/podcasts/richard_herring_lst_podcast/

Another reason to reject the off the shelf proposals and work for one that specifically addresses our unique needs

another la la land post. We have spent 18 months now and have moved some way towards the EU minimum position for starting talks on trade. We could have been here 18 months ago as it was obvious then what the issues were.

A bespoke deal - how long to organise / negotiate that? Why would the EU give us anything that gives us a trading advantage? There is absolutely no incentive for the EU to do this at all.; Its simply more pie in the sky / magic airy dust from the tories so they can attempt to blame the EU.

Its tyme the tories and the rabid leavers got a dose off reality. Living in la la land along with THM for the last few years

It will be a "bespoke deal"… any deal we get will be a unique one… it's another "Brexit means Brexit" term.

Base that deal on operating in SM & CU… the hardest, and most "bespoke" bit is farming and fishing… there is nothing we can pick up and use there that suits us (or Ireland, or numerous other EU countries).

I very much doubt it Kevi9n. Been pretty well ruled out and there is no time to negotiate anything. Its fold on the 3 issues, then accept one of the solutions currently in use.

Get operating inside the SM & CU back on the table, get agreements based on that

It's becoming increasingly evident that that is the only workable solution to this, so I expect that's what'll happen.....

Eventually.....

After May and co spend the next twelve months saying they definitely won't be doing that, then caving

The committee is still working on the colour.
As said bespoke covers everything from the UKs current membership with veto and rebate to full hard cliff edge brexit.

Red. Definitely red.

Or green.

Its fold on the 3 issues, then accept one of the solutions currently in use.

Politicians lying with inpunity is a problem for society. The legal system seems impotent so it goes on.

Exactly. Suddenly, if a politician stands in front of a bus painted with a slogan promising to spend a large sum of money on the NHS and less than 24 hours after the referendum they renege on that promise, you'd expect there to be serious repercussions for that politician's career, no? At the very least, trust in politics could be in part repaired by a formal investigation into the conduct of various politicians followed by punitive action against individuals who've been proven to have misled the public.

The precedent that's been inadvertently set worries me. Suddenly it's okay to lie, because what your average person in the street assumes to be a pledge, suddenly becomes an "aspiration". What next, a new prime minister makes a pledge to fix inequality and social division on the steps of No 10, then does absolutely nothing to make good and gets away with it?

Like I said before, if successive governments had put effort into fixing the social divisions that have festered since (at least) the early 1980s, then we would not be in the mess that we're in.

Just remember that as demonstrated here repeatedly they will try and argue on any kind of technicality in order to avoid the majority of huge and important questions that they have no plausible answers to.

You mean like how we were promised a referendum before the adoption of the EU constitution (indeed, it was a manifesto pledge “ "We will put it to the British people in a referendum and campaign wholeheartedly for a Yes vote.")

Yet after the constitution got kicked into the long grass, and replaced by the Lisbon Treaty - in 2007 Tony Blair was telling us that it wasn’t needed, because the Lisbon Treaty was different to the EU constitution.

So, if you went to complain about people relying on “technicalities” then theres your great big stinking elephant in the room, we went *into* the EU in breach of an election manifesto pledge by the Labour Party, who wriggled out of it [s]because they knew they would lose[/s] on a technicality

less than 24 hours after the referendum they renege on that promise

Oh look, more fake news - Farage had nothing to do with the bus, he wasn’t even part of the leave campaign

Blair's duplicity played a major role in the current bad feeling towards the EU, and European immigrants, that's for sure.

The problems for any bespoke deal remain the same

1) ECJ - its an absolute no from the rabid tendency that the ECJ is involved. However no deal can be done without the ECJ to oversee the supranational law. the EU is not going to create a special tribunal under another name and anyway anything legal that is supranational is unacceptable to the rabids. This is why we have no deal yet on citizens rights.

2) NI - the need under the GFA for an open border on the island or ireland is an absolute red line for Dublin and the EU. A border in the north sea is not acceptable to the rabids and the DUP. Remaining in the customs union would solve the NI problem - but is unacceptable to the leavers even the non rabids as we would then not be legally able to make trade deals with others amogst other things

This is the reality of the positions of the various factions. Completely insoluble as we saw yesterday. the problem is we are not dealing with people acting logially on the leavers side. this no deal is possible.

the need under the GFA for an open border on the island of ireland

Care to tell us where the GFA says that?

Section or paragraph will be fine.

Who wants to have a go at some pros and cons now we know a bit more?

And despite that, the real people involved on both sides continue to spin the line that progress will be made this month. What planet are these guys on? Planet la la land? Why waste time on something that will never happen?

From the Guardian website, just now....

[i]The Scottish Tory leader, Ruth Davidson, has called for Theresa May to extend the special EU deal being sought for Northern Ireland across the UK, arguing that it would protect the UK’s internal markets.

In a statement Davidson said:

The question on the Brexit ballot paper asked voters whether the UK should stay or leave the European Union - it did not ask if the country should be divided by different deals for different home nations.

While I recognise the complexity of the current negotiations, no government of the Conservative and Unionist party should countenance any deal that compromises the political, economic or constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom.

All sides agree there should be no return to the borders of the past between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Similarly, jeopardising the UK’s own internal market is in no-one’s interest.

If regulatory alignment in a number of specific areas is the requirement for a frictionless border, then the prime minister should conclude this must be on a UK-wide basis.[/i]

So, that's the Scottish Tory Party calling for the exact same thing as the SNP, and the exact opposite of the Tory Party in Westminster.

Strange times indeed

And despite that, the real people involved on both sides continue to spin the line that progress will be made this month.

It is possible there will be a deal but given all the special interest groups (on both sides) whose positions are rather difficult to reconcile I dont exactly have my hopes up. Think the one clear thing is whatever deal is come up with the number of people actually happy with it are going to be quite low.

So the government is being propped up by 2 parties?

Not surprising at all Binners. Davidson has been consistent on this sort of line and she understands her electorate. Davidson is keeping her powder dry but her block of scots tories will be wielded if she is able to / needs to and is enough to pressure Westminster.

And despite that, the real people involved on both sides continue to spin the line that progress will be made this month.

Spin is all it is. Non of them have a scooby about how to actually reconcile the irreconcilable and May knows she does not have the electoral arithmetic to get stuff thru parliament when some of her party and the DUP will vote against any solution no0 matter what it is. IE DUP will not accept a north sea border, Rabids will not accept keeping aligned with the EU over the whole of the UK, Dublin will not accept a hard border. there is no solution to this that may an make unless she relies on labour votes

Oh look, more fake news - Farage had nothing to do with the bus

I wasn't referring to Farage. I was referring to Iain Duncan Smith.

People were led to believe that a sum of money would be diverted from the EU to the NHS. Now you tell me, is the NHS getting £350m per week or not?

Think the one clear thing is whatever deal is come up with the number of people actually happy with it are going to be quite low.

This.

Still don't know if more people would prefer continued membership over whatever the "real deal" ends up being, but it's the most relevant question to ask, if you're going to bang on about "respecting democracy".

So there you have it, lying or accussing someone of lying when they aren't doesn't constitute negative use of the forum and isn't considered a personal attack by the moderator who took the time and trouble to reply to my reports.

If the moderators don't intervene, which one has now stated he/she won't, this thread is never going to rise above its current status of bitch fest and slanging match.

The thread that broke STW.

If true, then the forum is worse for it.

I wasn't referring to Farage. I was referring to Iain Duncan Smith.

His comments were on the Andrew Marr show on Sunday 26th June 2016

Which wasn’t “less than 24 hours after the referendum” as you claimed

More fake news

His comments were on the Andrew Marr show on Sunday 26th June 2016

Which wasn’t “less than 24 hours after the referendum” as you claimed

More fake news

I'm delighted that you're enjoying yourself right now. You're being deliberately obtuse and are clearly revelling in it. Or are you just miffed because I reported you for personal abuse yesterday?

Are we getting £350m a week for the NHS or not, hmm?

So Ninfan / other outies. How are you going to solve the rights of citizens with reference to the ECJ and the NI border?

How are you going to solve the rights of citizens with reference to the ECJ and the NI border?

If you live north*of the border, you live in the U.K.
If you live south* of the border you live in the EU

We continue the common travel area, just like we have for decades before the EU existed. Since there are no land borders it’s imposiible to get to or from NI or Eire to U.K. or EU without going through passport control anyway, even today it’s not unusual to get asked for photo ID flying into Ireland from U.K., even though you don’t need a passport

*with recognition that the border isn’t a straight line, and that in places you could be wes, or east, or both, of the border

Ps, here’s the border between U.K. and Ireland operating whilst part of the EU

Oh my god, customs checks at the border, won’t somebody please do something about it?

So how do you solve the border issue?

Eire

🙄

So ninfan's not Irish or Northern Irish, yet he reckons he has the simple solution whereas people actually from the affected areas don't? Is that true?

Cos if so - wow..

People were led to believe that a sum of money would be diverted from the EU to the NHS

If you want to know what the final deal is going to look like

Just see what May's current red lines are and inverse them.. 🙂

Everyone knows vote leave lied & the brexies have boxed themselves by failing to correct the lies since.

As reality comes crashing down on them they are having to deal with that. There's a frothing mob of right-wingers wailing that May is a traitor.

Throw in the DUP & it's the perfect shitstorm -who couldve foreseen that getting into bed with such honourable and pleasant people would turn out to be a bad idea 😆

Either way the Tories are trashing their reputation, im sure theyll salvage a deal in the end but across the UK & beyond, Tory Brexit is becoming another way of saying 'self-harming shitshow'

Ninfan - there are no customs checks at the NI border now.

Are you saying that it needs to be a hard border at the NI / republic border? Considered by most a breach of the GFA and unacceptable ie will be vetoed by Dublin.

So that is no solution

So how do you solve the border issue?

Spot checks, just like it’s operated for decades, see video above

yet he reckons he has the simple solution whereas people actually from the affected areas don't? Is that true?

You tell me why it has to be any more difficult than the border between Switzerland and France,

go on, you tell me.

I’ve crossed that border a couple of dozen times, never had to stop once, even on the main roads never mind the back roads

Edit:

Ninfan - there are no customs checks at the NI border now.

Simply not true, customs do spot checks, as in the video above

Kimbers - I very much doubt they will get a deal unless they cave in to everything including the ECJ and a border in the irish sea - which will not get thru parliament unless they can somehow get labour on board which UIMO will only be for remaining in the single market / CU which I just cannot see May offering

You tell me why it has to be any more difficult than the border between Switzerland and France,

^Ninfan. I'm not aware that either the Swiss or the French were killing each other's border officers in recent history.

It'd be a brave man / woman that wants to man a border post (even intermittently) between ROI and NI.

So hard border at the NI border then. Vetoed by Dublin. No deal.

France / Switzerland - they have regulatory convergence so no smuggling possibilities and as Switzerland is both landlocked and very tightly controlled no migration issues

How are you going to stop migration over the NI border? Fred from Poland can easily travel to the republic legally,. Nothing to stop him at the NI border. Yes - he is now in the UK

Edit - spot checks will not do. Its OK now while we are both in the EU but once we are out then spot checks is simply insufficient. What % of trucks crossing the border will you "spot check"?

[quote=teamhurtmore ]Why do people also fall for the £350m tactic that Bojo and ninfan have both recently fallen back on? Its neither true from an accounting nor a cash flow perspective. It is a lie. Nothing more, nothing less. Just ignore it. Don’t give it the oxygen it requires otherwise you allow their tactic to succeed.

Fall for it? I'm simply pointing out that as you say it's a lie. Repeatedly. That's not really allowing any tactic to succeed - it's simply pointing out that ninfan is posting something which is a lie. Repeatedly. Something which I'm amused to see ninfan has now admitted to.

You tell me why it has to be any more difficult than the border between Switzerland and France,

go on, you tell me.

How would I know?

I'm not an Irish, NI or EU politican or businessman. So I am not aware of the issues. But then, as far as I know neither are you. I wouldn't presume to know how to solve their problems and I certainly wouldn't dismiss them out of hand. So why are you?

which is a lie

No, as pointed out it’s an officialy published government statistic which was presented in a way that some people found to be misleading without additional information

You know, like promising a referendum before approving the EU constitution wasn’t a broken promise, because they left the contents fundamentally the same, but changed the title to the Lisbon Treaty,

I wouldn't presume to know how to solve their problems and I certainly wouldn't dismiss them out of hand. So why are you?

Because I’ve sucessfully exported goods both into and out of the EU, across a land border, without a problem.

Ninfan - border solutions that are actually practical and will be acceptable to all parties

Ninfan - border solutions that are actually practical and will be acceptable to all parties

The border solution in Switzerland appears to be acceptable to the EU