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grimep
Orange man bad! Orange man bad!
I think you may be on the wrong thread/forum/planet*
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*delete as appropriate
"between two stools".
"Time to shit".
Very good.
I've gone through making people laugh. I wish I could say it was intentional.
The more you guys sneer, dismiss and ridicule those who voted for leave the more you help Farage. Have you learned nothing from the referendum and the US presidential elections? The leavers do have legitimate issues that need addressing and if there are no moderate parties listening then Farage wins.
It’s a pretty damning indictment of the two main parties, isn’t it?
They have absolutely nothing to offer. Nothing. Totally devoid of ideas, vision or leadership - or indeed hope - they gaze back into the past
It’s a choice between a threadbare reheated Thatcherism or some incoherent return to the 1970’s, both fronted by total incompetents you wouldn’t trust to run a bath!
I think people are going to be pretty disappointed (to say the least) if they think Farage is the answer, but I totally get why they’re prepared to risk it
OK
There has been no sneering, dismissal or ridicule from me when ever I have entered this thread.
I'm very aware of the positives of being in the EU but can't really think of many negatives, certainly none that would make me vote Leave.
So what are these legitimate issues with EU membership that have caused so many people to vote Leave?
So.... The NHS is up for sale, human rights & animal rights are on shaky ground. Boris is in court for lying.freedom of movement is stopping. Farage has been on camera saying the NHS is for the taking. Thanks a lot gullibles 🙄
So what are these legitimate issues with EU membership that have caused so many people to vote Leave?
I put a tenner on you not getting an answer. The question has been asked so many time on this thread and no answers have ever been given. Yes the voters have issues that need addressing but as the EU is not the cause of the issues nobody can come up with any examples.
The way to beat Farage, Boris or anyone's else's populism is populism. Don't try and reason, don't keep integrity etc,. as you will never win the voters who are unable to think.
They can vote for him all they like. The high water mark has already happened for Farage and his ilk, even before the European elections. Voting for him will change very little.
I disagree. Places like Sunderland would vote in a proverbial donkey with a red rosette pinned to it all these years, because basically it's 'anyone but the Tories'. Labour have abused that power for many years by ignoring them knowing they are still a shoe-in for the next election etc.
From talking to friends and associates in the area (it's my old home town) they are still passionately 'anyone but the tories' but there is a new kid on the block that'll suck up a lot of voters. Not saying Sunderland East/West/South/North will suddenly become a UKIP/Brexit party seat but there's potential to lose a few over the country and I don't think Labour can really afford to lose seats if they are hoping to somehow be the next government.
Sadly, I really don't know the solution is at all. I feel that Labour should come down on the side of another ref but I don't know what the fallout could be from that. Worst case is a Cons/Brexit coalition and I shudder to think what that could do.
Fighting populism with populism? Absolutely bang on! The only people who’ve made any impact on Farage’s bandwagon are the Lib Dem’s after using Bollocks to Brexit slogan, which is about as the unambiguous as it gets.
Contrast that with most of the Tory leadership peddling some deluded, unicorn-based ‘renegotiated’ fantasy, and a Labour Party ‘policy’ that is frankly laughable in its tortured triangulation
Time to pick a side. The middle ground doesn’t exist any more. The Tories and Labour leadership are so detached from reality in their Westminster bubble that they just don’t get this. Probably never will. They’re now essentially irrelevant
Farage gets it. Always has. Seems the Lib Dem’s now get it too
The leavers do have legitimate issues that need addressing
They do, and I've said since day one that they absolutely should be addressed.
However, the legitimate concerns (ie, the ones not based in Cloud Cuckoo Land like the Lisbon Treaty 2022 bollocks) are all domestic issues, can be addressed without leaving the EU, and won't be fixed by leaving.
ION, Bercow is being an enemy of the people again.
Yet another example of those championing our sovereignty and parliamentary democracy- which is apparently why we’re leaving the E.U. - seeking to casually sideline it when it doesn’t suit their agenda
These people are essentially fascists. Little tin-pot dictators who think they can pick and choose which rules and laws apply to them
After all these years are people serious saying that they've not heard a single legitimate concern about being in the EU?
As a first exercise in compromise can you all give one positive for each of the two camps?
I'll start,
Leaving should stop our politicians from blaming EU rugulations for all manner of problems.
Remaining will continue access to EU funds to cover our budget shortfalls
Good old Bercow.
I think we can all be grateful to him for opting not to retire. He’s played a blinder recently, being our last line of defence against ego-fuelled headbangers like Dominic Raab and this idiot...
https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1093148562928685056?s=21
Leaving should stop our politicians from blaming EU rugulations for all manner of problems.
The key word there is "blaming." Your primary reason for leaving, the first thing that popped into your head when pressed, is "well, at least we won't have a scapegoat any more"? Seriously? I'm sure the Ford workers in Bridgend will agree that's a price well worth paying when they go to sign on.
After all these years are people serious saying that they’ve not heard a single legitimate concern about being in the EU?
No, what we are saying is the legitimate issues that many voters have are not caused by being in the EU and are caused by government decisions (i.e. austerity) which has f all to do with being in the EU. Even immigration could be more controlled by the government while staying in the EU to appease concerns of the racist type of brexiter.
So what legitimate issues do people have where the cause is related to being in the EU?
I honestly can only think of one positive to leaving the EU. It would allow us to give whatever state intervention we want to boost business. But let's face it, that's not happening without the socialist revolution is it?
But the silly thing is that even the ability to give state aid to business requires the state to have money in the first place, which means a strong economy. And leaving won't give us that. So it's a bust, IMO.
Cougar, so.... You've jumped straight to dismissing a legitimate concern rather than offer a couple of balanced views as a show of goodwill. The reasons I chose were just random things I've heard, I certainly don't intend to defend them to you. My suggestion that we all show that we can actually listen to each other has got off to a poor start.
Okay we're listening now Poldarn, give us some good reasons to leave the EU that you would be willing to defend. They have to be based in fact and not hearsay, your time starts now 😜
You’ve jumped straight to dismissing a legitimate concern
OK, I'll hold up my hand, that was a little harsh.
But, is it really a legitimate concern? We blame ills incorrectly on EU legislation (that we helped create), therefore leaving the EU means we won't have someone else to blame any more? Does that seem logical?
If that were the case then the solution isn't "leave the EU," the solution is to hold liars to account. N'est-ce pas?
rather than offer a couple of balanced views
I'd offer a balanced view if I could think of a genuine benefit to leaving. We've been asking the leavers this for three years now and all we've got back is flights of fantasy and rhetoric. If I believed that leaving benefited us more than remaining I'd change my mind in a heartbeat.
Oh I know, agreeing to cookies on websites, that's a pointless pain in the arse. We could get rid of that after we leave I suppose.
Yet if you listen to PMQ and other "debates" in the HoC then a common theme is blaming the last lot in power and that the current lot are still dealing with the problems they caused. Apply that post-Brexit and the loons will still be blaming the EU for centuries to come.
While there may (depending on your point of view) been concerns over the European Supreme Court and the ECHR limiting and in some cases overturning UK legislation but for the most part it was very limited in scope (Abu Hamza for example) these were blown out of all proportion by the government, in particular the Tories. The result being that the average person got the impression that those institutions along with the EU were anti-British when really it was just another set of eyes looking at the problem and saying "That's not the best way to go about it."
As @Cougar posted either in this thread or one of the off-shoots: Name a single EU ruling without which you'd be better off.
My suggestion that we all show that we can actually listen to each other has got off to a poor start.
I give it two pages before they're calling you an appeaser. 🙂
My suggestion that we all show that we can actually listen to each other has got off to a poor start.
Personally, I am very open to other opinions. But that doesn't mean agreeing with everything. I don't agree with many leaver viewpoints - that's why I voted remain, of course. Remainers aren't born remain, they make a decision based on their interpretation of the situation, so I don't think you'll get much traction.
I honestly can only think of one positive to leaving the EU. It would allow us to give whatever state intervention we want to boost business.
But under the brave new world we'd be operating under WTO rules which also restrict state aid though they are less restrictive. https://www.oxera.com/agenda/brexit-implications-for-state-aid-rules/
But as you say, there might not be the cash available.
@Cougar -
Oh I know, agreeing to cookies on websites, that’s a pointless pain in the arse.
I'd put that as a positive 😉
Akira, I don't believe that having open borders across and into the EU is a good thing. I have no issue with people coming here if they have shared values (that my daughters won't have to dress a certain way, that women are equal and have a right to education). We do have the idea of 'British values' here and I think anyone coming here should at least respect those values if not actually take them up.
No problem with refugees of course, not an issue. We should be a sanctuary but broadcasting to the world that they should leave their homes and even their families to come here is causing death and hardships.
So that's one reason.
Akira,
I don't think we should be taking the best people out of developing countries. Our NHS would struggle without them but so what? I'd rather developing nations keep their best - train them here, no problem, they can then go on to help people who don't live in one of the richest countries in the world. I see our draining of other country's skilled workers as a bad thing.
Akira,
I'm not a fan of globalisation. We buy from places with awful pay and conditions just so that we can have cheap goods. I think the EU should only buy from within its borders and if that doesn't happen then we should have a chance of electing those who share that view. Convincing the other EU leaders of that is impossible but the chance of that increases if there are less people to convince, ie, the UK government.
Someone mentioned the Ford plant, the EU hasn't supported manufacturing in this country, how could it with the idea of protectionism being outlawed.
So what are these legitimate issues with EU membership that have caused so many people to vote Leave?
Wrong question. Some voted on the basis of nostalgia, some bigotry, some ignorance. There was however I believe an equally large number, perhaps even a majority, who simply voted out as a protest against the political establishment even though it might not be in their interests. They were given a rare opportunity to voice their disgust at a system which has done nothing for them (the whole system, not EU membership), and they used it. I doubt very many actually voted out based on a rational weighing up of the pros and cons.
So a better question would be, what is it that's so wrong with our political system and economy that would make millions of people vote against their own best interests in order to register a protest? If we answer that, we'll be on the path to solving the real issues.
Which is a very fair point. But if training staff in one place for them to migrate to work in another, to take money home later is a bad thing, i'm not sure what is good. Ideally we would give bursaries to nurses and midwives in training, and invest in education for the very young, but our government decided to stop those things, resulting ( wrt to the professions mentioned ) in a reduction of trainees. Go figure.
Akira,
Independent nations with many economic links is safer than a huge bloc with regards the militaries of the world. The EU keep talking about having an EU army and how has Russia reacted? War is too costly for any sane player but if the players are magnitudes larger than the opposition then it becomes conceivable to think about military solutions. MAD works, creating another powerful bloc in the world is dangerous.
Akira,
Let's make the UK poorer. We receive money from other member states, I don't think that's fair. Send it to Greece or those countries still suffering near the Russian border instead. Why are we still receiving farming subsidies? Food should be expensive in this country - meat should be a luxury.
One constant misguided thing about all this is talking about the EU as if it's someone else (them) "who is doing bad things to us"....unelected bureaucrats.
The EU isn't "them", it's actually "us". So leaving the EU absolutely doesn't guarantee anything new because we'll have the same class of politicians voting for the same sort of things, only without the solidarity from likeminded people in the EU that add balance to any one country's leanings.
Cougar, does there have to be a benefit to yourself? What about a benefit to other, less fortunate people in the world?
Poldarn, what's prompted you to start posting after 8 years absence?
I don’t believe that having open borders across and into the EU is a good thing.
We don't technically have "open borders," in fact the UK government has powers (within the EU framework) to greater restrict freedom of movement and chooses not to. This is a domestic issue. And, of course, we enjoy those same freedoms ourselves if we want to work overseas.
We do have the idea of ‘British values’ here and I think anyone coming here should at least respect those values if not actually take them up.
What values are they?
No problem with refugees of course, not an issue.
Good, because that's a very different issue indeed.
I'll get back to your other replies in a bit unless someone beats me to it, I've not eaten yet today bar a Pot Noodle.
How about if the feelings in Europe change and it goes down more right wing paths? We have a voice in the EU but it's only one voice. We are allowed to leave now but that's not guaranteed in the future. We have a direct vote over our own government and I think it's safer that way. We're all european at the moment and it needs to keep expanding to bring fresh consumers, I'd rather not be a part of that.
History is difficult, it only really works as a flawed example but the Napoleonic wars might be relevant in this discussion. Bit short of time now and can't really engage with the discussion. I apologise for that.
Poldarn, what’s prompted you to start posting after 8 years absence?
Well spotted. We were discussing this earlier today.
The EU keep talking about having an EU army
Do they? Serious question.
Del, I have an Android phone and randomly chooses stories from the Web. I commented on a droopy chain issue before this and then saw this thread. Nothing nefarious.
Poldarn, these all seem like things that our government need to fix. Unless they improve pay and training we will still need to get NHS staff from somewhere else, revamping immigration to only let people in who are just like us? That sounds a bit dangerous to me, oh don't like the way they look/think so they can't come in.....🙄 And thinking the deals we negotiate with countries will be ethical and righteous after we leave the EU, not going to happen on the real world.
We will just end up still doing all the things you don't like but without getting any of the benefits of being in the EU.
So you're worried about the EU getting more right wing, think I'd worry about that a bit closer to home first.
Pondo, I'm ex military and used to work for a defence company that supplies EU countries. The defence industry is seeing a shift from NATO to European. Our armed forces make up is discussed as being part of an integrated force with the EU rather than a standalone balanced force. I can but won't go into actual detail.
Akira, I've got it ok? It's easy to snipe and be dismissive. I know there are lots of positives to being in the EU.
No worries Poldarn, never very sure if people are being totally serious these days. Friend on Facebook had someone posting about how the UN are harvesting organs from war zones especially regions where they don't drink.....,,🙄
I can but won’t go into actual detail.
The argument for leave benefits in a nutshell, ladies and gentlemen.
And if I've missed any questions from anyone I apologise. Busy with life stuff and just wanted to add a bit of balance. There are good people on both sides of the argument and it's a tragedy that it has come down to two sides bitterly opposed to each other. The way that the referendum was run and then managed is criminal - the issues are real but it shouldn't have ended up like this.
The defence industry is seeing a shift from NATO to European.
True, and there are many good reasons for this, as I'm sure you are aware.
Our armed forces make up is discussed as being part of an integrated force with the EU rather than a standalone balanced force.
Mostly with EU countries, rather the EU. France especially. We're still heavily reliant on partnerships with the USA as well. Most operations involve more than one country, it's been that way since, well, you could argue… D-day.
Pondo, cherry picking lines? I've given lots of reasons and you pick up that single line?
I absolutely cannot go into the subject of defence. Maybe you would and maybe others would do to score points but I just won't. Have my other reasons not given you enough to criticise?
We have a direct vote over our own government and I think it’s safer that way.
No, we have a vote for our MP, who may have no say at all in who makes up our government. So, not only don't we have a direct vote, but the representative we elect might not get a say in it anyway. Who is picking our next PM?
Kelvin, I'll accept that difference and have seen that difference in bilateral agreements. The discussions around an EU army are also a thing though and Russia, China, even the US have reacted.
Kelvin, you're describing a change of leader without a general election. The new tory leader will be a tory.
Kelvin, and if we have such as disconnect with our own government then how do you see us having a say on EU matters?
Absolute fantasy about "EU Army" entirely made up by the Brexiteers to foster fear - I've spent 20 years in the defence sector and working at a strategic level with MOD and the military and the notion that any EU nation is prepared to cede its sovereign operational capability to another. What is likely to happen, particularly a Trump attempt to undermine NATO is we'll see the EU undertake more joint operations, in much that same way that the UK command UNFORCYP - the UN peace-keeping operation in Cyprus. It would be perfectly natural for EU members to form a 'defence force' which draws on individual nations capabilities as well as well as developing joint training / doctrine to help protect the EU's eastern border. Having a collective defence capability like NATO article 5 is to be expected.
https://euobserver.com/foreign/143311
https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKCN1NG0K8
Quite easy to have researched that yourself.
(apologies for poor links, trying to sort food)
[mod edit: I think I've cleaned those up for you]
From those links…
"Faced by Russia, which is on our borders and which has shown that it can be threatening... we need to have a Europe that can better defend itself by itself, without depending solely on the United States."
A number of proposals have been put on the table for how EU nations could cooperate more closely on defence. The European Commission says closer defence cooperation “is not about creating an EU army”.
good summary here of how the Tory leadership have failed so utterly to confront the realities of Brexit
https://www.ft.com/content/8d7d7e0e-8719-11e9-a028-86cea8523dc2
I can't go into the detail of how I know, but some of you are underestimating the current level of integration of EU armed forces. Yes they are all independant national forces but they train together and there's a whole command structure that means that if ever push comes to shove they will all work as one and very efficiently at that.
On the subject of an "EU army," even if we assume it to be true, I'd say:
1) So what? Why is that a bad thing?
2) We'd have the power of veto as an EU member state to prevent it happening if we so desired.
3) Would we rather be included in such a thing or have it as a potential enemy on our doorstep? If the EU were assembling a super-army, surely this is one of the most compelling reasons there is not to leave?
but they train together and there’s a whole command structure
Yes, no country operates alone in military operations (training or active) much, it's been this way for longer than any of us have been alive. The only shift has been away from using NATO or UN structures (arguably the US started this shift due to frustrations with key countries in both groupings being far less hawkish than them).
It turns out that if you look at enough stuff that's in the public domaine you get an idea of how European nations have extensive criss-crossing agreements in place whilst on the ground there are regular internation exercises, and continuous cooperation and planning. Google is you friend if you want to kno wmore
https://www.france-allemagne.fr/Cooperation-franco-allemande-en-1471.html
https://it.ambafrance.org/Cooperation-entre-tireurs-d-elite-militaires-francais-et-italiens
@poldarn In case you missed it,
What [British] values are they?
Daughters being told how to dress... You voted leave because you don't like brown people, amirite?
Cougar, no, that's literally the opposite of my views. That you're attacking my person rather than my arguments is pretty poor and shows you've not read my previous posts.
All, will try and catch up tomorrow. I'm not ignoring anyone, just other stuff to do.
How about if the feelings in Europe change and it goes down more right wing paths?
Then the EU needs all the rationalising voices it can, surely? The member states have the power of veto over important stuff so if right wing countries tried to do something unpalatable it'd get vetoed. That's why the EU is important - it ties countries together via economics, so any wannabe dictator would have to (ahem) leave in order to do anything drastic, and s/he then would be acting alone, it wouldn't be the EU.
Without the EU any right wing countries would be free to form an alliance to do bad stuff. This has happened before of course and is one of the founding principles of the European integration movement. As we all know.
How about if the feelings in Europe change and it goes down more right wing paths? We have a voice in the EU but it’s only one
voiceveto.
FIFY.
So, what was it that prompted you to post after 8 years absence?
Meanwhile 90M plus spent on consultants by the gov on Brexit.
Poldarn, you have given some things YOU don't like about the EU and things you think they should be doing however, to ask again
"What legitimate issues do people have where the cause is related to being in the EU?"
This means things the UK government could not control or address while being in the EU. I don't believe any of the things you mention are issues affecting the average persons life. Even the racist British values stuff could be satisfied by the government if it wanted to (which is doesn't as the even crap parties like the tories are not that racist)
Labour win in perterburough. Brexit party candidate make sracist statements. Maybe the people are not so daft. thats a 60% leave seat.
I'd attribute "the people" all the possible brexiter insults. Only 4000 or so voted Lib Dem and just over 1000 voted green. All the rest, about 28 000, voted for leave parties. Which is perhaps not surprising in a 60% leave seat.
And let's face it, the Brexit party which has only existed for a few weeks nearly beat Labour in Peterborough.
All this makes a no deal Brexit more probable IMO.
A very significant win for labour, and a sign that they can’t abandon leave voters in these marginals. In the end it shows that in these seats their remain voters will ultimately bite the bullet and vote tactically to prevent the Brexit party winning. They would have lost this if they had swung fully behind a stop brexit message.
They would have lost this won comfortably if they had swung fully behind a stop brexit message
Care to elaborate why or are we just doing panto style ‘oh no they didn’t’ level of debate now?
Point of order. the brexit party ( which is not a party) has been in existence for 3 years.
Well, my claim is as detailed as yours, but I will anyway.
Trump created an open goal when he let slip that the NHS would be a victim of a US trade deal. Everyone with half a brain knew that anyway, labour should have been campaigning on the truth for the past 2 or 3 years.
to quote myself from the other thread
time for labour to stop pandering to the false brexit narrative, and start winning the real arguments. That farage and the tories will sell of the NHS to American insurance companies, bring in privatisation to education, cut taxes for the wealthiest and inact even more damaging austerity and cuts onto the poorest, all the while under a backdrop of jobs lost to brexit.
This isn’t a difficult war to win, but it has to be fought and not just capitulated in fear. It is about time labour looked to its guiding principles and started representing the people they claim to represent and not just enabling the alt-right propagandists.
Care to elaborate why or are we just doing panto style ‘oh no they didn’t’ level of debate now?
No elaboration is possible as you are just making it up just the same as people saying going for a no Brexit would have got more votes. You are just making up that the result is because of something you want to be reality.
If the no brexit votes went to Lib Dems and Greens then it would be a good guess to suggest that Labour could have got some of those votes but lost a whole load of other votes to Brexit party.
Also need to remember this was not exactly a Labour safe seat as they only beat the Conservatives by a few hundred votes in 2017. Same sort of marginal win but against a different party.
They would have lost this won comfortably if they had swung fully behind a stop brexit message
That doesn't add up at all.