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Seeing as we’re asking questions - Can you tell me how a determination to leave the E.U. fits in with European Social Democratic traditions, because i’m Struggling with that one
Any answers....?
Because the cognitive dissonance in your argument has reached new levels
I’m going to increase my support for Manchester United by supporting Liverpool from now on...
it wouldn't but that is not labour policy. Its something you have made up. Labour policy is for a second referendum.
I am still awaiting this hard left labour policy that is not firmly in the european social democratic tradition. Just one tiny policy
Companies with over 250 employees will be forced to transfer 10 per cent of their shares to an inclusive ownership fund (“IOF”), owned by their workers. The IOF will pay capped dividends to workers and the surplus to the government.
A proposed “English Sovereign Land Trust” will compulsorily acquire the land banks of big developers – at much reduced prices – for social housing.
All of those are further left than most centre left parties in the EU. The SDP does not support anything that comes close to the above.
You keep parroting that labours manifesto is no further left than the "European social democratic model" and you are expecting other people to go through every left party in Europe. We'll, one of the biggest centre left parties in Northern Europe is nothing like Labour under Corbyn.
Oh and New Labour helped to redistribute wealth, the beat that you can say is that the SNP are as far left as those lot. Maybe slightly further left because of their live for free higher education - but that is it.
Where's the evidence that the SNP have redistributed more wealth? Scotland has failed little differently to this report over the years.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/feb/25/social-exclusion-policy
Last time I checked there was no statistically significant difference in inequality between Scotland and England.
This is all besides the point, I wasn't criticising Labour on their vague election manifesto that is a dozen things to a down different people. I was talking about how they have contributed to polarisation. You have to look at the language and rhetoric coming from the MPs and party membera, to get an idea of what they'd do in power.
Labour policy is for a second referendum?
Of course it is. Magic Grandad is fiercely committed to it ...
Its something you have made up.
FFS.
If Labour hadn't stood on the policy of delivering Brexit (but keeping a referendum in the back pocket to maybe stop the Tories delivering Brexit), and stated clearly that they supported a referendum, with a remain option, come what may, they wouldn't have polled 14% in the European Elections.
Round and round this one goes…
Rayban - actually that sort of thing is firmly accepted and the norm in germany. Ok it goes a little bit further than germany but its the norm in germany to have worker representation on boards and for workers to be shareholders. so yers - that sort of policy is firmly in the european social democratic tradition
and yes - labour party policy is a second referendum if they cannot negotiate a less damaging leave and is moving further towards second referendum in any event
You see =one of the unfortunate truths is that Corbyn does not control policy and corbyns views are not what you guys keep claiming
Right - out of this thread for my sanity. You guys have created this peculiar dystopian fantasy about corbyn that bears no resemblance to reality
Rayban - the redistributive alterations to taxation are recent - because its only recently that the SNP have had the power. Increasing taxation on the rich and reducing it on the poor is redistributive. community ownership of land is a leftish policy. financing community ownership from government funds is well left.
Ok chaps - continue with your echochamber making more and more ridiculous and baseless assertions about labour.
I really have to leave this for my sanity
We’ll support a second referendum, possibly, sort of ...if, if, if, if, if....
He’s a Brexiteer who has about as much appetite fir a second referendum as he does for wandering naked down oxford street. And both are about as likely to happen on his watch
Labour need to find a way to get rid of Karl Marx’s Garden Gnome before he destroys the party completely and dooms us all to permanent Tory rule, out of the E.U.
Because were nearly there. And it can only get worse
We’re certainly not going to be seeing any European Social Democratic values with that Brexiteer clown at the wheel
Rayban - one more. How much social housing is available in germany compared to the UK? social housing , controled rents etc are far more prvealant all over europe than they are here
I assume Trump's recent comment have been reported in the UK too:
No deal, no pay, Farrage is great - a bit like greasing the hand rail the suicide jumper is hanging on to. What do you leaver types on here think of Trump?
God my grammar and spelling was worse than usual in that last post, sorry I'm a bit of a tit with touchscreens.
Rayban – one more. How much social housing is available in germany compared to the UK? social housing , controled rents etc are far more prvealant all over europe than they are here
A lot less is spent on social housing than in the UK and the percentage share of UK social housing is almost double that of Germany's and even the EU average. It's only bested by Austria and Denmark.
Oops
You see =one of the unfortunate truths is that Corbyn does not control policy and corbyns views are not what you guys keep claiming
That's like saying Boris didn't control Tory policy if he got in a PM. Laughable.
Btw, that was exactly the line the Nazi party used to insulate the parties lack of popularity from Hitler during the war.
A slightly biger picture of housing trends in the UK and Europe:
Could you point me to Labour immigration policy in their manifesto, TJ. I didn't find any when I looked, perhaps I should have looked harder, anyhow before commenting I'd like to read their official line.
Cutting through all the verbiage, a referendum was held, a majority voted Leave.
Fair enough.
But the terms and conditions of leaving were unknown at the time, so the referendum should be taken as supporting the principle of leaving, not the act of it.
What is needed is a confirmatory referendum now that the conditions are known, ie do we want to leave under those terms?
Nothing wrong with a bit of popular democracy.
But in the meantime, can we get some laws pass to criminalise lying, accepting of foreign donations, donations from corporations, and restrict the activities of foreign owned media?
Once again Rayban you answer the question you wanted to not the one asked. Controlled rents? ie private owned rental building with rent levels and conditions set by the state. Not included in your stats above
Still - its completely fruitless debating with people who are sitting with fingers in their ears to anything that is different to their weird world view and who reinforce this weird world view with a echochamber.
You guys are no diffent to the breixteers in this way. decide what you want then distort the facts to fit.
labour party policy is a second referendum if they cannot negotiate a less damaging leave
So we don't need a referendum if Labour are in the driving seat but we must have one if it's the Tories. And you seriously think that's OK?
Its something you have made up. Labour policy is for a second referendum.
Labour's priority is to get the best deal for jobs and living standards. ..Labour rejects the Conservative policy of a race-to-the-bottom on standards and rights. We will treat EU protections as a floor not a ceiling. Labour respects the result of the referendum, and Britain is leaving the EU.
TJ, that's lifted directly from the Labour policy document, just for the avoidance of doubt.
John Harris nails it in the guardian this morning.
It's a shame he didn't come on here to see the the wannabe culture war generals puffing their chests out, ready to lead the masses with their keyboards and smartphones at the ready.
but Corbyn and Farage are very similar in the’y’ve built themselves up as populist demagogues
Jesus. Corbyn is an old hippy who'd rather be on his allotment than in parliament. You spend a lot of time pointing this out, yet now he's the new Stalin! Your blind obsession with him is unhealthy, and it's making you say stupid things. Calm down man!
Corbyn is an old hippy who’d rather be on his allotment than in parliament.
Agree and he should go back to doing that as he is not a good leader. I was happy when Corbyn was made leader as he did bring about the change needed but it has been clear for a long time that he is not a leader, can't manage simple problems (anti-semitism) and is not representing the party on Brexit as he clearly doesn't agree with them.
Was that the article you meant to link daz?because he appears to say that what is required is opposition to a hard brexit, and a people's vote.
Labour policy on immigration TJ? You seem to have missed my last post.
Talk of the only way Labour in Scotland surviving is to disassociate themselves with their Westminster brethren.
What a sad state they find themselves in.
Labour respects the result of the referendum, and Britain is leaving the EU
It's almost as if tj has never read the Labour policy he spends so much time defending.
because he appears to say that what is required is opposition to a hard brexit, and a people’s vote.
And where have you got the impression that I want a hard brexit? I have reservations about labour pursuing a people's vote, mostly on the grounds that there's no majority in parliament for one and that there a huge chance it would be lost, but I wouldn't be too bothered if there was one, and would again vote remain if that's on the ballot.
Daz, I'm not sure that linking to an article asking for unity & an end to name calling followed by ...
the wannabe culture war generals puffing their chests out, ready to lead the masses with their keyboards and smartphones at the ready.
Kinda misses the point.
And yes
He did say
, I think I still hesitantly favour another referendum
The article itself is good and comes close to offering a way forward , it's certainly not as stupid as labours party of remain & leave nonsense or the vacuousness of Nandy saying we must come together without offering any ideas or details of how to do that.
Because by the time that theyve come up with a plan for hitting it hard and hitting it fast with a major -- and I mean major -- leaflet campaign, and while reeling from that, follow up with a drive, a car boot sale, some street theatre and possibly even some benefit concerts. OK? Now, if that's not enough, I'm sorry, it's time for the T-shirts...
We'll be eating chlorinated chicken with a fully privatised NHS & Amazon warehouses where all the steel works & car factories used to be.
Kinda misses the point.
Not really. He's entirely right that those on the remain side now indulging in fantasies about a culture war are wrong, and also that even if they win, it will be a pyrrhic victory.
The key bit...
"There are now Labour activists and polemicists who treat politics as if it were a board game, hanging on to the theories of dead Russians, and dealing in abstractions. Their rationale for maligning much of the party’s supposed base, I am told by some horrified Labour insiders, is to excise a whole chunk of the post-industrial working class from left politics, leave it to Farage and his friends, and install “networked youth” as the new vanguard of the revolution. Where any such manoeuvre would leave Labour’s supposed mission to double down on inequality and the UK’s regional imbalances is anyone’s guess. It would also threaten to pump the left full of one of the worst prejudices of all: snobbery."
That's really not going to happen, corbyns pro Brexit stance has already alienated the youth networkers, whilst hes, not been brexity enough for the post-industrial working class* , hence the 2 election drubbings they've just received.
* & Continued fetishization of this one demographic is hollowing out labours support. (Even as Brexit is turning the entire country post-industrial)
TJ, the rent controls in Germany are hardly a good example of lefty progressiveness. It's a band aid for not building enough social housing and it has no equivalency with our level of social housing availability.
https://www.goethe.de/en/m/kul/mol/dos/liv/21251402.html
There is also a huge difference between a culture that voluntarily gives employees shares (like many American and tech companies do as well) and states that force it.
Can't we all just get along? 🙁
Because by the time that theyve come up with a plan for hitting it hard and hitting it fast with a major — and I mean major — leaflet campaign
I say we get out there and **** it.
Can’t we all just get along?
We can, and we must, because when this is all over we're all going to have to live together. Encouragingly whenever I talk about brexit in the real world with people, both brexiters and remainers, it's much less animated and angry than in echo chambers such as this thread, or on twitter and news comments pages. This is why I think those stoking this supposed culture war are wrong, and even dangerous, because most people don't want it and just want to get on with their lives.
I say we get out there and **** it.
One swift knee in the happy sacks; it’ll drop like anyone else!
whenever I talk about brexit in the real world with people, both brexiters and remainers, it’s much less animated and angry than in echo chambers such as this thread, or on twitter and news comments pages. This is why I think those stoking this supposed culture war are wrong, and even dangerous, because most people don’t want it and just want to get on with their lives.
TBH the only place I've seen mention of a "supposed culture war" is on this thread, by you.
TBF, it was also in the linked article...
whenever I talk about brexit in the real world with people, both brexiters and remainers, it’s much less animated and angry
But this is self-fulfilling. The more passionate someone is about something, the more likely they are to want to waste time arguing on the Internet with people who aren't listening. You wouldn't ring a radio phone-in poll to say "no comment."
I believe that the people commenting on here, on either side of the debate, are a minority. Most "normal" people either don't care at all or just want it all to go away.
A counterpoint to the knee-jerk view that labour should jump on the stop-brexit bandwagon.
In particular..
"Aligning with a second referendum campaign led by architects of technocratic politics, advocating the overturning of a referendum, at a time when faith in Britain’s political class is at an all-time low, is a risk. And what about the genuine democratic concerns about the European Union? Those that prompted left-wing Remainers like Paul Mason to say the EU “is not and cannot become a democracy”?
They must surely exist in whatever demographic can be presumed to be the swing vote in a second referendum. How will Labour answer them? The plan seems to be to invoke the slogan ‘remain and reform.’ It is a vague answer for democratic deficits reflected in the fact that an enormous 92% of British voters couldn’t name an MEP going into these elections."
So what? Don't oppose brexit because brexit?
In the absence now, daz, of a soft brexit option, what should be done?
Whatever you post from Tribune people will assume it's bollocks, Dazh. Only 2000 subscribers and it's American owned. More propaganda in a sea of anti-EU propaganda.
Tribune used to be union owned and an intersesting read, it's now just meddling from over the pond and best ignored.
92% of British voters couldn’t name an MEP going into these elections
Sorry… but only 8% of British voters could name Nigel Farage, and knew that he was an MEP and/or running to be an MEP, yet 30% voted for a party he set up and is known primarily as his own personal vehicle in the elections to choose our MEPs? Does not compute.
advocating the overturning of a referendum
Yet another leaver-speak straw man, another referendum wouldn't be "overturning" anything. Did the 2017 general election "overturn" the 2015 GE? Don't talk tripe, man.
You spend a lot of time pointing this out, yet now he’s the new Stalin! Your blind obsession with him is unhealthy, and it’s making you say stupid things. Calm down man!
Yeah, but at least he didn't post a Monty Python picture or say "Magic Grandad", so there is some improvement.
So, is he actually your Grandad?
He is my grandad, and he is magic, but the whole veggie pacifist thing is an act. There’s nothing he likes more than a 3am ruck outside a kebab house while getting a large donner with chilli sauce
'MON THEN!
I'LL TAKE THE LOT O' YE!
Sorry… but only 8% of British voters could name Nigel Farage, and knew that he was an MEP and/or running to be an MEP, yet 13%(ish) voted for a party he set up
FTFY - The real figures sound a bit less impressive.
Still doesn't add up… I mean, is it not highly likely that most voters who voted for parties other than his own knew who he was, and that he was an MEP…? How could you have avoided knowing about him since 2014 onwards at the very least? The claim that only 8% of voters could name an MEP sounds like fanciful bull crap to me, when Farage is unavoidable in all media. Perhaps they all took his "taking a break from politics" line at face value and though he was no longer a paid MEP?
How many folk would know he was an MEP, not an MP?
How many MEPs have had as much coverage as him in the media (including the BBC)?
How many MEPs have had as much coverage as him in the media (including the BBC)?
None.
Hannon probably closest.
Anyway, do you really think that only 8% of voters knew that Farage is an MEP… on the run up to a referendum to elect MEPs… where he was the big news item solidly, selling his pitch for the election to elect MEPs… an election where he was standing to be a re-elected as an MEP? Really? Can 92% of voters be that unaware of something so basic, and intrinsic, to the mess that politics has become since 2014?
Do you think most voters know that you can't be both?
The march of Farage continues
Can 92% of voters be that unaware of something so basic, and intrinsic, to the mess that politics has become since 2014?
I would go with yes.
I would go with yes.
I would go with probably not and reckon its a bad question. However I wouldnt be willing to bet money on it though.
Aligning with a second referendum campaign led by architects of technocratic politics, advocating the overturning of a referendum, at a time when faith in Britain’s political class is at an all-time low, is a risk. And what about the genuine democratic concerns about the European Union? Those that prompted left-wing Remainers like Paul Mason to say the EU “is not and cannot become a democracy”?
They must surely exist in whatever demographic can be presumed to be the swing vote in a second referendum. How will Labour answer them? The plan seems to be to invoke the slogan ‘remain and reform.’ It is a vague answer for democratic deficits reflected in the fact that an enormous 92% of British voters couldn’t name an MEP going into these elections.”
I see that you are just waffling on with the same point and haven't bothered to countenance my accusation that Labour has helped radicalize the electorate - and that a counter radicalisation approach is needed if Labour wants to be part of the solution. Appeasing radicals is not how you deradicalise people .
In the absence now, daz, of a soft brexit option, what should be done?
The only reason we're here is because parliament failed to make a decision and pass the necessary legislation. We have a government which can't pass it's own bills. The traditional and constitutional solution to this problem is to elect a new government, which is what should happen. The parties can then campaign on what their preferred option is, be it a new referendum, no deal or whatever, and the people will decide accordingly. Once again though we're being held to ransom by a tory party which cares more about itself than the country.
and that a counter radicalisation approach is needed if Labour wants to be part of the solution.
Since when has offering more of the same been radical? Actually I"d more than happy with a coalition which involves the green party with it's policies on climate change, UBI, a 4 day week, proportional representation, abolishing nuclear weapons and using a different measure to GDP to measure economic progress. That would be truly radical, is that what you're talking about?
The only reason we’re here is because parliament failed to make a decision and pass the necessary legislation. We have a government which can’t pass it’s own bills. The traditional and constitutional solution to this problem is to elect a new government,
You appear to be conflating "parliament" and government," they're different things.
the people will decide accordingly.
Wait, so you're in favour of another referendum?
The only reason we’re here is because
Also, the only reason we're here is because Cameron tried to heal a schism in the Tory party, then people like Aaron Banks went "right then."
Wait, so you’re in favour of another referendum?
Given you're one of the knee-jerk responders to many of my posts you will know already that I've said I'm not particularly opposed to a new referendum. I don't think it'll solve the problem though, there's a huge chance it would be lost, and even if not it will only kick it down the road until Farage wins power. If one is to happen though there needs to be an election first, as we've already had two votes which failed, even though labour supported them.
Since when has offering more of the same been radical?
Just to highlight how daft this is, I'm going to use Nazis again for the lolz. Would you say that Nazis gassing Jews isn't radical because it's just more of the same?
Now ignore the last bit, because when I talk about radicalisation I'm not talking about policy. Policy does nothing in terms of describing where or why a group is radicalised.
Labour feeds radicalism because Brexit and their own political platform is based on group grievance, unfreezing (politically exploiting the loss of social connection) and group polarization (where members of this larger group must either commit to one faction and demonstrate their loyalty through further radicalization, or leave the group entirely.) Under Corbyn, Labour have demonstrated all of these traits.
Again, you and TJ are currently boring me because you're both framing this discussion purely within the constrains of material policies. The world doesn't work that way.
However, I do quite like the Greens and would be happy to see a somewhat restrained Green Lib Dem coalition, so we do have some common ground....somewhere.
Given you’re one of the knee-jerk responders to many of my posts
I'm surprised you've noticed seeing as you've ignored them all. I was starting to think you'd killfiled me.
you will know already that I’ve said I’m not particularly opposed to a new referendum. I don’t think it’ll solve the problem though,
No arguments here, I think it's a reckless idea.
Whatever could she be referring to? Which international institutions? Which structures? Nations working together how?
You appear to be conflating “parliament” and government,” they’re different things.
No he doesn't. It is a historically perfectly reasonable argument.
You appear to be conflating “parliament” and government,” they’re different things
But that's exactly what happened.
Parliament couldn't find consensus and the Government can't get its withdrawal bill through.
And its worth remembering that the Tories especially voted against everything.
Just to highlight how daft this is, I’m going to use Nazis again for the lolz. Would you say that Nazis gassing Jews isn’t radical because it’s just more of the same
How is that even a constructive analogy?
How is that even a constructive analogy?
Are one-line questions on rhetorical points intended to be a constructive contribution?
Whatever could she be referring to? Which international institutions?
Seeing as she's talking in the context of post-war US/UK cooperation, she's almost certainly talking about NATO and the UN. You really need to stop seeing everything through brexit tinted glasses.
Well, I'd add a few more to that list. What isn't spoken of enough is how crucial the US was in rebuilding Europe, helping to forge and support the institutions that help bind us together, to help to prevent us continuing to repeat past mistakes. Yes, they were crucial in the war itself, but even more crucial in the peace that followed. They should be thanked for this, and we should be reminded of it, far more often. Whoever was behind that speech needs commending for their timing, as does the Queen for delivering it.
[ not a royalist ]
Farage: This tactical voting is killing us, what can we do?
Banks: How about telling all the remainers to vote for parties who aren't a threat in their constituency?
Farage: Brilliant! Fancy a cheeky pint at the 'Spoons?
Well, the implosion of ChangeUK will help simplify things there a bit. Not as much as a clear policy from Labour would, obviously.
Well there it is. 😢
It's alright, as soon as we start threatening them with "no deal" they will open up their markets to us, without any need for us to pay more for drugs, or further fragment the NHS, or accept lower food and farming standards, because, don't forget … we hold all the cards … they need us more than we need them … RULE BRITANNIA !
[ oh, but don't ask how Ireland fits in with this speculative UK/USA trade deal ]
51st state but outside the dollar zone.
Airstrip One ...
Corbyn, are you prepared to pay for brexit with the NHS?
Shame on you.
Airstrip One …
I'm not sure what Melania's foof has to do with anything...