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why are the labour leadership too dim to understand this?
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1134211135719321600
My goodness some brexiteers really are deluded! I have some in my family - they vote for Rees Mogg. They are now saying that "we knew there would be lean times and we voted for a clean break!" given that this is not what all the leading brexiteers said at the time of the referendum its an absurd position. also all the evidence you give them on the lies of Mogg and Farage is just dismissed.
completely deluded!
torsoinalake
Member
I don’t think anyone is disputing a customs union yet not in the single market isn’t possible.It’s just it’s a shit idea.
Actually on this thread people keep saying this is impossible. Red unicorns apparantly
completely deluded!
Some of my relations have doubled down in that fashion, others now don't trust that any UK government could get a Brexit in the manner that was suggested in 2016, so want it stopped, despite still being against the EU. Keep talking and listening to them though… the rest of this year could see more changes to attitudes yet.
Red unicorns apparantly
No one who has looked in detail at how the Customs Arrangements that Turkey enjoys with the EU functions would compare it to The Customs Union that we currently enjoy. It's not just about swapping "the" for "a" … go have a read and see if you consider it anything like "frictionless trade" or adequate for UK:rEU trade to continue at current levels.
The issue for labour is how to attract remain floating voters but not lose the leave voting labour voters. Its no good them grabbing a few or even a lot of votes in safe tory seats while losing dozens of MPs from leave areas. Going all out remain or even second ref could well lose them huge numbers of seats.
"While Wigan has sent a Labour MP to parliament in every general election since 1918, the town rejected the party’s campaign to remain in the EU and voted strongly (63.9%) to leave in 2016. In the European elections last week, a resounding 41% of voters backed the Brexit party, pushing Labour into second place as it shed almost one-fifth of its vote compared with 2014.
In second referendum terms, 50% of people in Wigan voted for no deal-supporting parties or candidates, while only 21% backed the three remain parties – the Liberal Democrats, the Green party and Change UK. "
Read the whole article - its worth it to try to understand why labour has little option but to trey to keep these voters on board. another limitation of FPTP
TJ - those former (tribal) labour Brexit-supporting voters have already gone. History. And they’re never ever coming back. They’re Farage’s now. You have to be pretty deluded not to see that. Labour only hope is to try and stop the exodus in the other direction
It’s probably much too late for that though
I wonder how many non-mental labour MPs are looking at that polling, on top of last weeks results, are phoning uncle Vince up for a chat?
Those figures surely can’t come as a surprise to anyone*, and once these things reach a certain tipping point they start to become self-fuelling
If this is the death of the Labour Party then it’s well deserved for years of absolutely incoherent political cluelessness under Corbyn. What on earth did you expect? A socialist revolution? And the electoral oblivion of the Tory’s is always a good day!
If the politically homeless centre coalesce around the Lib Dem’s.. great. At least we’ve (the 48%) now got some political representation.
‘Bollocks to Brexit!’ Was a piece of political genius. It understands the political environment we’re now operating in
* apart from Magic Grandad, obvs
Kelvin - I agree its a stupid position and would not work nearly as well as what we have now - but it its possible.
Biunners - read the post above please and the article linked to. Its nothing like as simplistic as you pretend. Gaining votes in areas they will never win seats while losing them in areas they do win seats will not win an election. UK wide stats do not tell the whole story. the country is too divided.
possible
Something called "a Customs Union" is possible… the arrangements May sought could have been called one, if not for how badly that would go down with Brexit cheerleaders… the problem is the pretence that one would deliver what we have now, or anything like it.
TJ - do you not see that we’re at electoral Ground Zero? Farage does. All bets are off! Corbyn hasn’t even entered the 1980’s yet, so we can forget him
The Lib Dem’s seem to have cottoned on to the new political reality. And look where they are today! 2 years ago they were dead men walking
Binners - please read the article I linked to about voting intentions in the northern towns. It shows that your simplistic thinking on this will not work. a out and out remain labour will lose dozens of seats in the north of england to brexit party without gaining significant numbers in remain areas
A message from the North of England… there are millions of people here who haven't bought into the Farage message, and need someone to vote for. Our region elected fewer Labour MEPs, and more LibDem/Green MEPs, than we previously had. The same happened elsewhere. Labour should, and could, have walked this election, and the local ones as well.
The polls are showing we do indeed now have someone to vote for. And these things tend to gain momentum (no pun intended)
Karl Marx’s Garden Gnome will be polling single figures within a month. Same with the Tory’s
The two party system is now dead! Ironic that it was the combination of David Cameron and Jeremy Corbyn that signed its death warrant
BInners - have yo read that piece?
Lisa Nandy has been saying the same thing for the last 12 months, and looks to lose her seat no matter what happens now.
Look at the voting numbers tho - its shows a very differnt picture to that in other parts of the country. Its not just Nandy - its all similar seats across the north ie labour heartlands where they are losing votes for not being brexity enough
TJ - I’ve read it and like I said; that ships already sailed. Those voters are never coming back to the Labour Party.
So why to try and court them, half-heartedly, when they’ve got full blooded Brexit bullshit with Farage?
Its just alienating the socially liberal middle classes who are now moving over, en masse, to the Lib Dem’s after 3 years of being ignored
The two main parties both deserve everything they’re about to get.
I suspect we won’t be hearing any more calls for a GE from Magic Grandad any time soon.
Give up TJ. No one’s interested in actual sensible discussion. Kelvin even came pretty close to calling me a racist earlier. Remain virtue signalling all the way now. A few years down the line when chancellor Farage has privatised the NHS and PM boris has brought back hanging they’ll all still be on here moaning about how it’s all Jeremy Corbyn’s fault.
I’ve never been more convinced than I am now that the remain side (on here at least, thankfully out in the real world people seem a bit more sensible) have lost the plot. When they employ all the nefarious tactics of Trump and Farage and lower themselves to their level the argument is lost.
One last question though, is it really worth embarking on a pointless and destructive culture war because of the difference between ‘the’ customs union and ‘a’ customs union? Madness!
they are losing votes for not being brexity enough
Which will also happen if they try to deliver "not true Brexit as currently described by the chosen one*"… Labour don't win these people back by promising a Brexit in a form they don't want.
[ *Farage ]
Kelvin even came pretty close to calling me a racist earlier.
I asked you to expand on which "side" of the Labour Party is "multi-ethnic". I've never been aware that the party was split along such lines, and seriously wanted to know what you meant by it.
One last question though, is it really embarking on a pointless and destructive culture war because of the difference ‘the’ customs union and ‘a’ customs union?
No, but what we replace our current arrangements with other countries with, especially those we are surrounded by, is key to Brexit. That a third of the country thinks it is voting for "no arrangements" is maddening enough, but the vague and disingenuous approach to these issues by key politicians THREE YEARS after we voted to leave is depressing.
Binners - corbyn was calling for a GE today.
Well I did ask you to elaborate and unless I missed it, I didn’t see a reply. In any case if I was wrong I’m pleased about that. Small mercies!
Christ on a bendybus! He’s completely and utterly detached from reality!
I gather he’s just doing that as a default position as it’s just what he always does in these situations
Still thinks he’d win a general election? Totally ****ing clueless! Somebody needs to have a quiet word and keep his Boris-esque desire to be PM in check
daz - I am not arguing sides. I am attempting to counter all the bullshit and unlike many remainers I do actually understand why labour are trying to face both ways - its because of those northern towns.
It really does amuse me tho the idea that there is this secret cabal that controls labour although it appears Abbott and O Donell are no longer a part of it 🙂
It might be time to just let Corbyn&Milne&co carry on as they are, as regards Brexit, hope for a snap General Election, and just move on…
In regards to that poll you posted...
@ DazH
* The NHS * Labour **** Corbyn.
A last ditch attempt to save our union with the EU is worth the destruction of the NHS.
You two realise that the Lib Dem’s are presently polling 5 points more than both labour and the Tory’s and above Farage’s nutter-fest
Whatever could it mean?
I suppose it will remain forever a mystery....
I think most of us can understand why Labour are doing what they're doing tj, it's just that it's been going on too long, and with the reanimation of farage it's pointless. The leave votes are gone. It's maybe not too late to save the remain. FFS I hung on to my postal vote until polling day in the vain hope that there might be some emphatic change of tack from Labour I could vote for, but no...
If Corbyn does get his GE, it seems very likely to me he'll be handing victory to somone else. They've lost Scotland, maybe the northern seats too, as you contend. Both the Tories and Labour will be lucky to get to number 10 on another party's ticket. The rate they're both going at the moment they won't get a look in.
Tj I read the link about Wigan as bad as it reads for labour there, if they carry on with their fence sitting they will lose there, if they become a remain party, they will lose there, unless they become a hard Brexit party they will lose there....
They've just had their worst ever results in European elections, that poll ^^^ is just 1 poll but their worst ever one in opposition.
Doubling down on the same plan that's put them there is a huge mistake (as is Corbyn repeating the lie that he can reopen the WA)
If you haven't read the link del posted it's worth it http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2019/05/interpreting-uk-european-election.html?m=1
Brexit has reshaped the political landscape, Labour can't try & cling to how it was pre-ref or they'll be crushed
Here's your "Red Unicorn".
https://labour.org.uk/press/jeremy-corbyn-alternative-plan-sensible-jobs-first-brexit/
A new comprehensive and permanent customs union, with a British say in future trade deals, to support businesses and jobs and ensure no hard border in Northern Ireland
In the customs union with a say in trade deals is not going to happen.
While the Conservatives are all running for PM on the "most hard-core Brexiteer" ticket, and Labour are trying to be all things to all people (but really are proposing a hard Brexit), the next deadline is looming. So by that date it is either remain, WA or no deal. Extension maybe for a GE or Referendum. GE is just going to bring a massively hung parliament so that might not fly.
What a time to be alive.
Doubling down on the same plan that’s put them there is a huge mistake (as is Corbyn repeating the lie that he can reopen the WA)
It shows how corrupted our politics has become (due to the blatant lies peddled around Brexit) that all the leadership contenders for the Tories are saying that they will not only reopen the WA, but somehow come away with the mythical cake-and-eat-it Brexit that was promised. The labour party have been, and still are, parroting the same lie
After what we've seen over the last few years, we all know that this simply isn't credible. So trumpeting it as a policy is just farcical. Both main parties are treating us like idiots, who'll just buy any old BS they spin us. There present poll ratings and popularity reflect that fundamental unicorn-based untruth
The two parties who've gained both offer unequivocal positions. Brexit party promise... well, the clue's in the title. Its insane, but it is what it is. The Lib Dems 'Bollocks to Brexit' leaves no room for ambiguity and has won it the position of the home for the previously ignored 48% (and rising)
At a time where politicians have never been held in lower esteem (rightfully) the electorate are rewarding those who are not treating them with contempt.
I realise thats a fantasy with the snake oil salesman Farage, but he's delivering a clear unambiguous message. Vote for me and I will deliver a no deal/clean break/crash out Brexit. Its madness! But unfortunately economic insanity is something a large chunk of the electorate seem happy to embrace.
So it has to be countered with an equally blunt message to be credible. The Lib Dems (and the Greens) are doing this as the two main parties flounder
Correcting you once again binners. The EU have made it perfectly clear that with different red lines a different deal is possible. So yes - labour could get a new improved deal if they were in government. I put the direct quote from Barnier on this thread earlier.
In the customs union with a say in trade deals is not going to happen.
thats pretty much what Turkey have. So it is possible. ~Stupid, third rate but possible
It really isn't. Turkey does not have a seat at the table.
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/eu-turkey-customs-union/
Neither does Turkey have a say in the EU’s trade policies. In order for Turkish goods to be able to benefit from preferential access to, say, the Canadian market, it has to negotiate its own agreements with the EU’s partners., That, however, may cause issues. First, even if Turkey wanted to negotiate agreements with the EU FTA partners, there may be delays as it takes years to conclude an FTA.
TJ, as I suggested before, go and read about the Turkey situation as records Customs, it is not as you see it at all, I'm afraid. Not a useful example to use. Those proposing "a" Customs Union with the EU claim that we're get a much better arrangement, just as those who argue for "alternative customs arrangements" do. To a certain degree they may be right, but they still need to come clean and explain how different much worse than being in "the" Customs Union their currently very vague alternative will be.
Absolutely delusional
Its just alienating the socially liberal middle classes who are now moving over, en masse, to the Lib Dem’s after 3 years of being ignored
There should have been nothing in labour’s policy that the liberal middle classes couldn’t sign up to. It offered a sensible compromise between redpecting the leave vote and limiting the damage. But no, instead they have decided to back a self defeating remain at all costs position. The simple fact is that this group of people simply can’t accept the fact that they lost to a bunch of oiks and ‘gammons’.
I do find it amusing and somewhat frustrating that only now have they found their voice. The time for all this passion was in the referendum campaign, not after it was lost.
Turkey has no say in EU trade deals, there have been exploratory talks about that possibility (after the EU-US trade deal would have left Turkey in a very bad position), but no likely conclusion any time soon.
Third countries can just sell into the EU, and then transport goods into Turkey (not as easily as into an EU country, admittedly, but avoiding tariffs for sure). The blue unicorn chasers want us to have our own trade deals, paired with customs agreements, so that we can become a back door into Europe in a similar way. The red unicorn chasers want us to have a say in EU trade deals, and be included in all of them as if an equal partner. I'd much prefer the second fantasy, it is superficially far more attractive if you consider the EU as a collective to be in a better position to negotiate trade deals than the UK alone, but it's still fantasy. NI could be the exception, but many key politicians are dead against them getting their own extra special arrangements with the EU.
There should have been nothing in labour’s policy that the liberal middle classes couldn’t sign up to.
Ending freedom of movement and leaving the single market are two quite significant pieces of labours policy I personally regard as absolute backward-gazing, isolationist, economically suicidal folly
But lets just ignore those parts of Labours red unicorn position where we do that but retain all the advantages of memberbship
Like I said... what people are objecting too is being played for fools
Yep, that about sums it up kelvin, the EU won't allow either unicorn, but that won't stop tj repeating turkey for the next 100 pages.
There should have been nothing in labour’s policy that the liberal middle classes couldn’t sign up to. It offered a sensible compromise between redpecting the leave vote and limiting the damage. But no, instead they have decided to back a self defeating remain at all costs position. The simple fact is that this group of people simply can’t accept the fact that they lost to a bunch of oiks and ‘gammons
Why should we toe the line because that is what you people want? I don't want to back a self defeating brexit, that is more important to me than your precious old labour. I'm not going to vote in these people's self interest, just mine, that social contract is broken.
Yes daz, how dare we stand up for something we believe !
Probably best we just meekly take a bite of the shit sandwich, but be thankful labour are offering it with wholesome brown bread
Interesting that the poll now has LD ahead of Farage 2.0.
And if a deal could be done with Greens (an ask I know) then that looks like GE winning numbers (it won’t be I know, but it might make a senior coalition partner).
Interesting.
MSP - all I am doing is correcting misinformation. People keep saying a customs union is impossible outside the EU. Its not - Turkey has one. People keep saying that labour cannot renegotiate. Again wrong as Barnier has made completely clear.
Guys - argue about things that are real. Don't invent positions that are factually wrong to use as a stick. There is plenty of truth to hit labour with. why resort to falsehoods?
People keep saying that labour cannot renegotiate. Again wrong as Barnier has made completely clear
TJ please stop repeating this Barnier said that up to about March, the last extension had it written into law that we can't reopen the WA.
An interview he gave this week he said we no longer can.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/30/eu-chief-negotiator-blames-brexit-on-nostalgia-for-the-past-michel-barnier
You are spreading misinformation by repeating it
Did Barnier not rule out renegotiation yesterday?
Oh and the EU are disbanding their negotiating team....roflmao.
Ending freedom of movement and leaving the single market are two quite significant pieces of labours policy I personally regard as absolute backward-gazing, isolationist, economically suicidal folly
Like I said, embarking on a culture war over the definition of things like FoM, customs unions etc is madness. If the outcomes are the same, as I believe they would have been under labour's policy, then it's an acceptable price to if it draws a line under the whole sorry mess. Anyway It's academic now as the people have made their choice. Culture war it is it would seem.
What is economically suicidal though is allowing this crazy situation to continue indefinitely without resolution. It's already destroyed the political system and exposed it to the far right nutters. The economy will be next. After that god knows. How long before we're killing each other?
Why should we toe the line because that is what you people want?
I voted remain and for the green party in the euro elections.
I’m not going to vote in these people’s self interest, just mine, that social contract is broken.
I don't think you're the sort who could ever vote in the interests of anyone but yourself so I doubt it's a major loss.
Like I said, embarking on a culture war over the definition of things like FoM, customs unions
Are you high? Freedom of movement is black and white - there is no definition to argue over.
The economy will be next. After that god knows. How long before we’re killing each other?
Maybe we are in the mood for a civil war.
I voted remain and for the green party in the euro elections.
Really? I don't believe this for a second, given your constant pro-corbyn trolling. You should have out your money where your mouth is and voted Labour unless it was a tactical move because you couldn't bring yourself to vote lib dem in a lib dem seat.
its not me spreading misinformation here. Its very simple. Barnier has made it 100% clear that a renegotiation CAN occur if the red lines change. If the red lines remain the same then there is no renegotiation.
The hysteria and falsehoods being peddled on here by remainers do you no good at all. It just makes you look ridiculous.
MY only interest here is in speaking the truth. This truth does not fit the web of nonsense some of you are building up around labours position.
time for me to duck out of this again I guess.
plenty of people signed up to labour's position daz, and the result? '80% of voters backed a party that promised to respect the result of the referendum' f@@@ that. fool me once...
its not me spreading misinformation here. Its very simple. Barnier has made it 100% clear that a renegotiation CAN occur if the red lines change. If the red lines remain the same then there is no renegotiation.
The hysteria and falsehoods being peddled on here by remainers do you no good at all. It just makes you look ridiculous.
Just a minute - your basing that on his months old comments, when he has plainly said that there is no renegotiation and they are winding up their negotiation team? That sounds very much like they have changed their tune and only want to renegotiate with us once we have crashed out. It doesn't seem clear at all here that you are the holder of the truth, you are guessing at what game the EU is playing.
As others have said, wasn't it written into the extension that their would be no renegotiation?
Reported yesterday
But Mr Barnier said: "If the UK wants to leave in an orderly manner, this treaty is the only option.
"If the choice is to leave without a deal — fine. If the choice is to stay in the EU — also fine.
"But if the choice is still to leave the EU in an orderly manner, this treaty is the only option. This is all that our legal constraints allow."
Maybe we are in the mood for a civil war.
Christ listen to yourself. You're like a drunken idiot shouting 'come and have a go if you think you're hard enough'. It's pathetic.
time for me to duck out of this again I guess.
+1
Really? I don’t believe this for a second
I can assure you it's true. But believe what you want to believe. I'm long past caring about what ****holes like you think of me.
time for me to duck out of this again I guess.
At least refute what Barnier said yesterday.
The withdrawal agreement is now cast. either we rip up A50, agree to it or crash out.
Jezzas best bet if he does want to hang onto leave voters is to go for a Norway style close relationship, (which of course NF and the remnants of the tories will criticise but if he was smart he would point out that the likes of Daniel Hammann promised this in 2016). but he's too entrenched.
Tories next move? I really can't fathom it.
NF ?? if he gets into power (unlikely) and crashes us out then I would bet my backside that he would turn around and attempt to push through the withdrawal agreement and claim it's a different deal. If this did happen I would hope the EU tell him to do one because they know he's a delusional charlatan.
Christ listen to yourself. You’re like a drunken idiot shouting ‘come and have a go if you think you’re hard enough’. It’s pathetic.
Hahah and you aren't? You are the one constantly bleating that remainers are destroying the country and is utterly incredulous that remaining means so much to us. I've thought you were just a smart stealthy troll a number of times....
Maybe remain is more important to us than what is important to you, maybe you should accept that and piss off.
Say what now? Turkey hasn’t joined the EU yet?
Have you not spotted all the millions of rapists wandering about?
the withdrawal agreement isn't the red lines.
The withdrawal agreement is the bit that says 'pony up £xBn and we'll keep the trade as is until we figure out the future trading agreement'
The red lines are the future trading agreement. Teresa's red lines are impossible. Jezza's red lines are impossible. NF doesn't have the brains to even create red lines (and even if Bannon writes them for him they'll be impossible)
Loving the Queen of all Facepalms.
Interesting result on yougov's GE intentions poll. Ballcocks to Brexit indeed.
And Rayban - calm down. His point is a valid one even if you don't agree, and telling him to ... off isn't adding anything.
Build a wall.
Idiots on one side.
Reintroduce to society when they realize how wrong they were.
I think the channel will work just as well as a wall... 🙂
Our plan is just to move north to Scotlandshire when they've got their independence - approximately 12 months after the no deal crash out carnage in October
**** staying in the nasty, backward-gazing, flag-waving, petty, parochial, small-minded, racist, post-colonial wasteland that Engerland has become, which will only get 10 times worse after Brexit
Why wait? If you are serious, why not move now?
Post general election and hung parliament, pm elect Ed Davey, with most seats in parliament, is asked to form a government, he can count on the Greens but he needs those 10 labour MPs on his side, Corbyn?
But seriously more likely to get Tory seats for a majority. Which means its payback time! Particularly if he picks a disaffected former Labour MP Ed milliband as his home secretary 🙂
Why wait? If you are serious, why not move now?
Beacuse he'd be dead by Christmas of a tandoori munchie box overdose.
Why wait? If you are serious, why not move now?
He can't just crash out. He needs an orderly exit.
What a surprise. The EU 'deal' has come down to them saying 'there you go. Thats what we've decided. Take it or ****ing leave it!'
So in a way, Little Liam was right....
What a surprise. The EU ‘deal’ has come down to them saying ‘there you go. Thats what we’ve decided. Take it or ****ing leave it!’
It's easy to take this view because it fits with the remain at all costs narrative. However, as we all know the EU are the masters of pragmatism and will not allow idealogy to get in the way of reaching a mutually beneficial deal. None of us know how much the EU will change their position, but we do know that they will, otherwise we'd already have crashed out in March. But here we find ourselves two extensions later, after a supposed immovable deadline was moved. I agree that they won't change much, certainly not with a tory negotiating team, but you can't dismiss the possiblity altogether because they've already proven their willingness to change when it suits them.
Wowsers - it's all getting punchy in here.
Am I missing something.... the EU are saying that the Withdrawal agreement won't be negotiated. That is only the precursor to the real negotiations, the outline of which is in the political declaration.
So in actual fact everyone is right... the EU won't renegotiate the withdrawal agreement, however the actual deal that we come up with is subject to the ongoing negotiations in the 2 year transition period. So Jezza or a new tory PM can negotiate using different red lines for the longer term relationship?
However in order to get to that point we have to sign up to the Withdrawal agreement which nobody likes? So it is a moot point anyway.
Or have I got this all wrong?
a supposed immovable deadline
is what UK said, not what EU said
Having been through the mill on twitter with people who've never read the small print of a mobile phone contract but who continually talk about "common sense" and "they need us more than we need them" is that the fundamentals are clear - if we want to trade, profitably with our closest geographic neighbours then we need our regulations to be as close to their's as possible. To pretend otherwise is both a fallacy and a delusion.
When a trade deal is negotiated, the smaller market will invariably have to compromise more than the larger market. Access to the EU marketplace was the crux of the Brexiteers' plan; they banked on global product standards convergence (now unlikely given the hostile trade environment propagated by the US/China) and that worst case scenario, Britain would be a giant warehouse stuffed with the world's tat being sold to Europe via leaky border arrangements - why do you think that Brexiteers like Raab, Hannan et al keep banging on about "technological solutions" to avoid a hard border? Honestly, Scottish independence is a desired result for the headbangers - they love the thought of an unguarded land border to an EU country so that they can pour other people's tat across by the lorryload.
Brexit has become about much more than whether or not we leave the EU - it's about who we will end up kowtowing to over the next thirty years. There's little in the way of strategic planning going on, the "no deal" brigade of charlatans want to cut tariffs on imports to everyone, but the rest of the world does not have to reciprocate, meaning that over the mid to long term we're going to have to make some extremely tough choices about currency valuation, product/food standards, public spending and even whether we align our human rights legislation with our more unscrupulous potential suitors.
Naturally, the above does not prevent blokes who've had no education beyond the age of sixteen lecturing everyone about the mythical GATT24 clause. The level of dishonesty from politicians is staggering, either they lack the intellectual rigour to fully understand where we are, or they're deliberately misleading people in the hope that no-one notices.