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Nope, it needs to go so badly wrong that they can’t deny their stupidity.
It is not a game.
We need reasonable people who voted Leave in 2016 to ignore what many who led the Leave campaigns back then are saying now, and recognise why we need to work with other countries.
People don't nespond to polite reason Kelvin, they respond to force, economic ruin or the risk of becoming a social pariah.
History is littered with the evidence of that.
Good luck with that.
But they will. It will never be their fault, it will be spun as the fault of the EU or foreigners or whoever else is _not_ them and flavour of the month.
You can see that now with the 'EU legislation' bullshit. How many times have you heard things blamed on the EU that could be fixed with a UK law, or are just simple lies? Every time people hark back to WW2 and the days of the Blitz we see the same tropes reinforced: Plucky Brit defying evil on the continent. Defending an island.
When humanity is at a tipping point in so many ways, both positive and negative, cooperation is being thrown away in favour of isolationism.
You need to try far harder to be polite and understanding...
We tried that, it hasn't worked.
The populists say whatever they want, pour abuse, lies and scorn into every statement and policy, yet we are meant to meekly stand by and be polite like ineffectual social workers trying to see the good in everyone. **** that, it is time to fight back.
I am not going to politely stand by while the ****wits take away the few real freedoms and choices available to me. While they abuse the sacrifices made by the wartime generations and claim them for their racist ends.
Any Welsh remainers reading this? Who are you voting for?
I've read that the Plaid vote is the best for getting a remain MEP in place but willing to listen to other options.
I've always been a Labour voter but can't this time...their fence sitting and general apathy to this election has moved me to look elsewhere.
Futility is reasonable expecting unreasonable to become reasonable via reasonable methods.
...which leads to....
Pessimists tend the graves of optimists.
There's your chance to participate in a democratic vote on the EU parliament on Thursday. I'm sure many of us are relishing the opportunity to send a clear message through the ballot box, one way or another. Shouting angrily on random internet forums just makes you look unbalanced.
I amazingly have to agree with raybanwomble. The last three years have been a disaster, and yet the brexit bandwagon rolls on, maybe because the participants are too proud to admit they're wrong, or they are pursuing the agenda for their own gain(Fabridge, May, Corbyn etc.).
But the particular group that have swallowed the brexit party propaganda totally, there is no point being polite, or even trying to reason with them anymore.
So you have to defeat them, by direct confrontation if necessary. That may be the price for saving the country you want to live in.
Shouting angrily on random internet forums just makes you look unbalanced.
What, like Farrage, Trump & co?
I am not going to politely stand by while the **** take away the few real freedoms and choices available to me.
So what are you going to do?
If you want to see how the ultra Brexiteers view this whole debacle, then go have a look at Pistonheads. 2 threads stand out in particular -
There are some very knowledgeable Brexiteers on both threads but the hatred of everything EU is incredible. They won't change.
The tories are running scared and Bojo will pander to the more extreme tory factions to help negate the Brexit Party threat.
lister- I'm interested, too. As I understand it, Plaid have the best chance of taking a seat, but I'd like to understand better.
Can anyone point me at one of the sites that can help with this decision?
What, like Farrage, Trump & co?
When Trump is voted out of office, let's compare the behaviour of his supporters with those who completely lost their **** when he was elected
When Trump is voted out of office, let’s compare the behaviour of his supporters with those who completely lost their **** when he was elected
Liar liar pants on fire
See this is what populists do, the politicised violence seen in the USA over the past few years has been perpetrated by trumps barmy army, making America great again by domestic terror, but the populist idiots claim it is the other way around.
Same as here, its the brexiters threatening death, threatening to take to the street with guns, hounding politicians with rape threats. But when the remainers call then out for being the thugish louts they are, they go all snowflake and start crying about how rude we are.
May to set out details of her "new deal" at 4pm.
I imagine the new deal will be the same as the old deal.
When Trump is voted out of office, let’s compare the behaviour of his supporters with those who completely lost their **** when he was elected
You mean the traitor who has likely colluded with the Russian state and who has incited violence against minorities? Who couldn't be bothered to turn up to remembrance day because it was wet? Who has sold his "special ally" out by sinking any chance of a decent trade deal with them? Who's supporters have actually killed people, who racially abuse others on a daily basis, are often Irish IRA sympathizers or are actual Brown Shirt Fascists?
the opportunity to send a clear message through the ballot box
Yeah, that happened at the local elections too, but the message that was received wasn't the message that was sent. The one thing we can be sure of post EU elections is that every last one of the parties who stood will somehow claim it is some sort of victory for their cause.
That helpful tactical voting guide, copied from earlier in the thread:
gives some recommendations. It appears that based on polling Plaid is the only Remain party likely to get a seat. Proportional rep is no use to smaller parties when there are only 4 places up for grabs, still beats FPTP though.
Remainers really do need to consider voting tactically in this one.
Excellent - thanks for that, si77
Nope, it needs to go so badly wrong that they can’t deny their stupidity.
Badly wrong for whom? It will go swimmingly - the NHS will be sold off to Nigel's insurance company pal, Kate Hoey's property developer mate will be quids in, etc etc. The only people screwed are us, and who cares about that?
If you want to see how the ultra Brexiteers view this whole debacle
Thing is, they're not the ones we need to get through to. They're extremists, they're not going to be convinced by statistics and nice words any more than a radicalised Islamic terrorist is going to be converted to Buddhism with a few pamphlets and a nice cup of tea.
No, the people we need to reach are the nice lady from down the road who voted Leave because she thought giving more money to the NHS would be a good idea; the bloke sitting in the pub going "I'm sure everything will be fine;" the single mum whose benefits have just been cut, again; the pensioner who believes we have to leave because we voted for it before and we can't disagree with it or challenge it now because something something democracy something. Y'know, normal people. They're the ones being swamped by propaganda and outright lies, and that's what needs countering at every turn. And for all that we might think we're supposed to be the smart, enlightened ones armed with all our facts and figures and understandings and things, we're absolutely ****ing appalling at it.
Gammons will be gammons, and frankly **** that lot. It's the moderate people we need onside here, and calling them thick isn't going to butter any parsnips (even if it's true). Because as someone touched on a page or two back, when someone realises they're wrong about something they either hold their hand up and revise their opinion, or they double-down and get angry and defensive. And for the former to happen they need to understand that it's OK to have been wrong.
Badly wrong for whom? It will go swimmingly – the NHS will be sold off to Nigel’s insurance company pal, Kate Hoey’s property developer mate will be quids in, etc etc. The only people screwed are us, and who cares about that?
Maybe we need that.
It needs to go badly wrong for the average voter. We're too comfortable and entitled, the British think the world owes them a living - maybe we need a ****ing disaster to wake your average person up.
May I suggest a bit of forward planning at look at how you would budget for private health insurance.
When Trump is voted out of office, let’s compare the behaviour of his supporters with those who completely lost their **** when he was elected
what these guys?
yeah its gonna be lovely
Gammons will be gammons, and frankly **** that lot. It’s the normal, moderate people we need onside here, and calling them thick isn’t going to butter any parsnips (even if it’s true). Because as someone touched on a page or two back, when someone realises they’re wrong about something they either hold their hand up and revise their opinion, or they double-down and get angry and defensive. And for the former to happen they need to understand that it’s OK to have been wrong.
You can't convince the normies either.
"The truth seems to be that propaganda on its own cannot force its way into unwilling minds; neither can it inculcate something wholly new; nor can it keep people persuaded once they have ceased to believe. It penetrates only into minds already open, and rather than instill opinion it articulates and justifies opinions already present in the minds of its recipients. The gifted propagandist brings to a boil ideas and passions already simmering in the minds of his hearers. he echoes their innermost feelings. Where opinion is not coerced, people can be made to believe only in what they already "know." - The True Believer, E. Hoffer. THE manual on mass movements.
Their opinion needs to be coerced.
butter any parsnips
Just as an aside - does anyone actually put butter on parsnips?
Someone on Twitter has just said:
"The problem is that Leavers only care about imaginary things but have to pretend to care about real things, whereas Remainers care about real things but are forced to address questions about imaginary things."
@RichardKBarrett, Replying to @hugori****d and @andytoots
Utterly nailed the whole thing.
We're in a situation now where people have been convinced that:
No deal is better than a bad deal.
We should (or indeed could) "just leave."
They need us more than we need them.
Having a vote is undemocratic.
In another referendum you'd have to vote to leave even if you voted remain in 2016 because that was the result last time and disagreeing would be undemocratic.
It'll all be fine because we were OK before we joined.
I could probably go on, and that's before I've even touched on the outright lies about immigration that people have swallowed wholesale and now seem a distant memory. Any single one of those statements doesn't stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny and is so utterly ludicrous that it beggars belief that anyone would take it seriously. Collectively, I just... I don't have words, if this were a film we'd laugh it off as just being too absurd. We've been played, well and truly played, and we've lapped it up.
We're not going to win this war with facts, figures or dairy products. This is a war on emotions, it's why Remain lost in 2016 and it's why a weeks-old anti-EU party with no manifesto is looking likely to make up half of our MEPs shortly. As a bloke with a distinctive moustache demonstrated back in the 1930s, you can convince a lot of people to go along with you if you're charismatic enough.
https://www.remainvoter.com/?fbclid=IwAR1VfSGVs031tixCdpob2uRNKlJ6WiwJ9vUl_sLqY0tlogYCvHUDCk3FqjM
This seems to be a guide to tactical voting. Unfortunately for Scotland it appears to be wrong. Saying vote lib dem in the hope tories will not get a seat. However lib dems are well behind the greens and from what I have seen the best chance of stopping the tories getting a seat in scotland is green. Lib dems are polling half of what the greens do. Brexit are going to get a seat anyway
May to offer a parliamentary vote on a 2nd referendum according to the Independent. Breaking news apparently so let's see what happens.
So now TM says MP's will get a vote on whether to hold another referendum if they vote her deal through. I can't work out if she is incredibly smart or incredibly stupid. Does anyone know how the numbers look for support for another referendum, would a majority of MP's back it?
If you disagree with Brexit you get a second say but first of all you have to agree to a terrible deal. Wow. How is that democracy? You only get to vote for this if, first of all, you vote for something that you completely disagree with.
Looks like Mps have to vote for her deal first then they will get a 2nd referendum vote after that.
"franksinatra
Subscriber
SO now TM says MP’s will get a vote on whether to hold another referendum if they vote her deal through. I can’t work out if she is incredibly smart or incredibly stupid."
Maybe she's thinking "this bullshit worked on the lib dems before, they'll let you do anything as long as you promise them a referendum for something"
Only if they back the withdrawal agreement first, though. And I wouldn't rely on May or her successor to make good on that promise.
My major worry about a second referendum is how can we rely on Remain to not cock it up again? Don't forget that the referendum wasn't just won because of Leave lies, it was lost by Remain incompetence. They will need to sort out a decent, credible campaign if they get a second bite at the cherry.
Seems to be an awful lot of hysteria on the remain side.
Surely it is the case that TM is engineering the situation to lead towards a cancelled Brexit, but without looking like she has failed. If she pulls it off and breaks Brexit then perhaps she goes down as a political genius. Perhaps.
If you want to see how the ultra Brexiteers view this whole debacle
Thing is, they’re not the ones we need to get through to.
But the extremists are the loudest voices. And the ones dear old Mrs Miggins is listening to. With the Arch Extremist Farage being the loudest voice of all.
Whatever the gullible are lacking in their lives, it will be the fault of the EU and could be rectified with all that money we send to the EU. It is too easy for Farage & co, Remain royally ****ed up in the Ref and the genie is out.
This is a tory mess we find ourselves in and Corbyns fence sitting has prevented any unified counter to the Brexit cheerleaders.
Presumably the questions on that 2nd ref are up for grabs too. It could be anything, worst of all, it could be May's deal or no deal - no option to revoke at all...
We wont get the 2nd ref vote from this anyway
Mays offfering a temporary CU, labour wont go for that.... so its leadership elections, then GE
Doesn't even matter what labour may or may not agree to. She is offering a deal that doesn't exist, that the EU have rejected as unworkable time and time again.
She is absolutely batshit mental.
Even worse the Farages dupes are going mental on social media because she's offering a 2nd referendum (even tho shes not it is indeed a pre-rejected plan)
which is just going increase the PayPal donnations into farage's latest retirement fund/ votes for his 'party' on thursday
Theresa May has told MPs they have "one last chance" to deliver Brexit, as she set out a "new Brexit deal".
MPs will get a vote on whether to hold another referendum if they back the EU Withdrawal Agreement Bill, she said.
The bill also contains new guarantees on workers' rights, environmental protections and the Irish backstop as well a customs "compromise".
If MPs reject the bill, she warned them a negotiated exit would be "dead in the water" and Brexit could be stopped.
Let's hope it gets stopped.
Looks like Tories will be decimated in the next GE. 😀
Yes, they will be completely decimated.
One party down with another one or two more parties to go the same way. 🤗
New British politics in the horizon woohhooo! 🕺💃
Point of order - decimated means 1 in 10 killed. I don't really want them dead but hope that they loose rather more than 1 in 10 seats
Point of order – decimated means 1 in 10 killed. I don’t really want them dead but hope that they loose rather more than 1 in 10 seats
Tories will probably end up in 4th position if they are lucky. 😀
Yes, not a total decimation but will still feel like total decimation ...
So resounding defeat on the way followed by new pm then vote of no confidence and a general election where we end up with another coalition of some kind.
Basically the best outcome now is that Labour boot the fence sitter Boris becomes a short term pm and the tories are not elected for a generation
Or that the Maybot turns out to be a strategic genius, and Brexit gets cancelled.
Probably that....
This seems to be a guide to tactical voting. Unfortunately for Scotland it appears to be wrong. Saying vote lib dem in the hope tories will not get a seat. However lib dems are well behind the greens and from what I have seen the best chance of stopping the tories getting a seat in scotland is green. Lib dems are polling half of what the greens do. Brexit are going to get a seat anyway
TBH I think you've already made up your mind to vote Green and are ignoring all advice to the contrary.
Not at all scotroutes - but when the greens are polling significantly higher than the lib dems it seems wrong. I was talking to my dad today who is a lib dem activist and he thought the greens would do much better in scotland than the lib dems and would probably get the seat. From the herald
SNP: 38%
Brexit Party: 20%
Green: 11%
Labour: 10%
Conservatives 10%
Lib Dem: 7%
UKIP: 2%
Change UK: 2%
Other: 1%
That would be 3 snp. 1 labour, 1 brexit 1 green. NO tories.
I just want to use my vote tactically to get a remain party in ahead of brexit or the tories. I'd vote lib dem tactically if I thought it the most likely to acheive what I want. I wonder if the vote lib dem in your map is because they are assuming the greens will get one anyway. I shall continue to look at the polls and stuff and I'll dig into your map further. Be nice for the snp to get 3 as well so that may be the valid vote here. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
That remain united does not really give enough info. I need to understand how they reached their conclusions.
It may be that they consider the greens already have a seat assured - so vote snp to give them a 3rd seat or lib dems to give them one and snp only get 2? No effect on the one brexit or labour or green so given 2 snp that leaves one seat between tory and lib dem?
I need more info!
Or that the Maybot turns out to be a strategic genius, and Brexit gets cancelled.
Probably that….
If that is the case we can all say bye bye to Tories. 👋
So resounding defeat on the way followed by new pm then vote of no confidence and a general election where we end up with another coalition of some kind.
That will definitely fulfil the wishes of "to be in to have a say" lot. 😄
I think the expectation is that floating/disenchanted yoons won't vote SNP or Green so their vote will go LibDem.
Weird. Greens appear to be mopping up those folk. I shall keep on looking at it and use my voter whatever way is best to keep tories / brexshitters out. could even be SNP to get them the third seat. they won't like that in westminster.
I'll just leave this here.
@cougar hahahah priceless - and apparently remainers are the nasty people. At least they aren't perverts.
Hey, I am!
(Did I just say that out loud?)
I’ve been told by 2 “official” reminder groups to vote for two different parties on Thursday to use my vote ‘effectively’.
I don’t know them, I don’t trust them. I think I’d be pretty daft if I thought that only Leavers and Right Wingers were being influenced be unknown organisations with unknown goals.
I’ll be voting LibDem, I considered Plaid but I’m not a Welsh Nationalist really, I considered Change but sadly it doesn’t seem to share my views as well as the Libs (Tim Fallon’s notwithstanding).
For what it’s worth...
IF, May agreed, without caveat that her deal would be subject to a Deal v Remain Ref, even subject to approval by the Commons, and I were an MP. I’d probably vote for it.
Ultimately enough bullshit has been layered, it’s never going to get any better, anyone who is staunch Leave or Remain now, isn’t going to change their mind either in Government or the Public.
If we go to the polls again, this time knowing the truth and not a lot of made-up bullshit and empty promises - this is it, it’s this or remain and we still vote to leave, then we deserve everything we get.
Any Welsh remainers reading this? Who are you voting for?
I voted Plaid based on, in no particular order:
1) The remainer analysis above
2) Plaid policies generally
3) Independence isn't happening in Wales any time soon so I don't have to worry about that, but possibly to lead to more devolution
4) Can't be accused of supporting the 'Westminster elite' by Welsh brexiteers
5) They aren't Labour or Tories.
I'm heartened by people's declared voting intentions (or postal votes) on here so far. I can only hope that the rest of the voting population takes as much time to analyse how to best reconcile their politics and views on Brexit. However, I know from the STW referendum poll and first 50 pages of this thread that in the majority STW is a made up of people of above average inteligence, politcial awareness, openess and humanity, and I can only hope for the same level of thought from a minority of those who even bother to vote.
You'll be disappointed Ed. There are a lot of studies demonstrating that people would rather feel right than actually be right. This article talks about some of them:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds
Corbyn playing a blinder... (In an alternative dimension where he stood for something)
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1130900865995485184?s=19
Faced with an open goal, Jezza spoons it into Row Z...
Again!
Getting a bit boring after 3 years of it, isn’t it?
I wonder when we’ll actually get an opposition party worthy of the name?
Clearly the nicotine-stained man-frog has about the same understanding of irony as his hero, Trump.
So not even suspending your referendum campaign because a labour MP has been killed by one of your supporters is fine, but get a milk shake chucked over your expensive suit....
You really couldn’t make it up
Brexit campaigners might be beginning to realise what they've unleashed…
https://twitter.com/bbcwalesnews/status/1130940872445579264?s=21
Delivering Brexit will not stop this… far from it… the betrayal narrative will just be fed by it, not sated.
For the first time in my life I'll not be voting Labour.
It'll be either Green or LibDem. Probably decided in the last second in the booth.
Massively, massively disappointed that Labour didn't become the 2nd Ref party.
@kelvin 😳........ is she for real or is that vid a piss take of brexiteers?, I wouldn’t have the patience to deal with an attitude like that directed at me and I fear I’d have kicked her in the nuts 🥜.
Not sure who I'll vote for in the EUs up here in Scotlandshire.... since it's the EU elections I am not 100% sure what the point of my vote is. I plan to vote, but if we're leaving then I am not voting for an MEP but some kind of pre-general election signalling? A proxy referendum on brexit?
Massively, massively disappointed that Labour didn’t become the 2nd Ref party.
Yep, although they are now starting to say they support a 2nd ref - heard a number of people say it in last few days but there is always a caveat of if an a deal they like can't be reached first. Need to lose the caveat and just say 2nd ref is what they want whatever the deal or position. They are not ignoring their Brexit voters but at the same time listening to their remain voters.
It is even easier to say when you are not even in a position to make it possible...
The caveats that Magic Grandad has attached to any 2nd referendum 'if... if.... if....if .....' will ensure it never happens. Thats the whole point. Its the last thing he wants to do.... anything that might hamper the Brexit he's been sitting back and nodding through all along.
If you follow the labour/Corbyn twitter feed or see any of their parties electoral material you'd come away with the impression that Brexit wasn't happening at all. Don't mention the war.....
In other news, Radio 4 were looking into the Brexit party's funding this morning and to their complete shock and amazement it turns out its as dodgy as ****!!
Our electoral rules were set up in an analogue age and are simply not fit for purpose. You can anonymously donate up to 500 quid at a time to the Brexit party without any details being required. So there are no checks to see if you're on the electoral role, or even a UK citizen.
Any investigation into where this money is coming from will take months or years to complete
Given whats happened with the EU referendum, and Arron Banks dodgy funding record (where we still don't know where 8 million quids worth of donations came from), and Russian bots doing what they do, does anyone seriously believe Farage's latest ego-fest is legit and playing by the same rules as everyone else?
These people are laughing their tits off at the very idea of democracy, and there are idiots out there who are buying it. How could anyone with anything between their ears seriously vote for a 'party' that publicly stated that they have no policies, but don't you worry your pretty little heads about tiny details like that. We'll sort all that out once you've voted us in?
People really are THAT stupid?
Utterly depressing
does anyone seriously believe Farage is legit and playing by the same rules as everyone else?
I am not sure it really matters. What matters is that he gets the votes proving that people really are not capable of any thought process.
I have never thought democracy was a good idea and we are now seeing why.
The David Davies interview is part immensely satisfying, part horrifying.
The Tories have created a monster, it will eat their party alive, already has, really. Farage is a consomethinge grifter but by trying to beat him at his own game, theyve destroyed themselves.
Labour have been lucky because this was never their bunfight. But their own failure to face down farage & Brexit has left an open goal for the far right who are now in the driving seat.
I’m not sure Godwin can be invoked any more as this is clearly the direction of travel.
What was the Treaty of Versailles is now ‘Brexit Betrayal’. What the Jews were to the Nazis is now what Muslims are for No Dealers.
This was never about the E.U. for No Dealers this was about advancing far right nasty politics. Nasty politics that attract people who have failed in life and want someone else to blame.
We all know where this line ends. Under a slogan pronouncing that work will make you free.
Brexit campaigners might be beginning to realise what they’ve unleashed…
And yet he doesn't seem to grasp it. Or the fact that we haven't even left the EU yet.
I'm struggling to see a way out of this now.
A second ref will not pass Parly - why would any MP even a bit Brexit vote for a 2nd ref where the the choices are May's shit deal or remain. If it was on the face of May's bill it might pass if Tories whipped for it but that was never going to happen
May will fall, new Tory leader from the right in September - then what?
May will fall, new Tory leader from the right in September – then what?
Full steam ahead to No Deal
The repeated mantra that 'parliament has no majority for no deal' is totally irrelevant. Its the default position. A default that pretty much every one of the swivel-eyed loons queueing up to replace May would be only too eager to deliver
We're totally ****ed, basically
I’ll just leave this here.
That is a terrifying read.