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The EU have made it clear that an independent scotland would be welcome with no issues to overcome.
And it would happen in the blink of an eye, I'm sure.
An iS in the EU would experience a huge brain gain. Invest in Central Belt property now. Actually don't, I'll be needing some.
And it would happen in the blink of an eye, I’m sure.
It would be one of the easiest deals in human history, or something like that 🙂
It's 30 years since I left from Scotland and increasingly it looks like I'll be moving back - the English Nationalism under the false pretence of "UK" or "British" anything in particular. The only thing the Brexiteers will be successful at will be precipitating the break-up of the UK.
EVERYTHING IS GOING JUST FINE
https://twitter.com/electionmapsuk/status/1126036763292651522?s=21
Quite a change over 2 years. Still, "nothing has changed", so no need to ask us plebs if we want the government to keep digging…
Scottish Nationalism is fab, UK/British/English Nationalism is bad.
Wanting to leave the EU is bad, wanting to leave the UK is good.
Its a funny old game isnt it?
Scottish Nationalism is fab, UK/British/English Nationalism is bad.
Wanting to leave the EU is bad, wanting to leave the UK is good
Having only 3 brain cells to rub together must be worse.
You have my sympathy.
Wanting to leave the EU is bad, wanting to leave the UK is good.
Its a funny old game isnt it?
Well, it's quite nuanced. I was in favour of Scotland remaining, however I'm now unsure. As an arch remainer, my view is that working and co-operating with everyone is the way forward. Post-Brexit, Scotland might have close ties with one neighbour, but it would be being separated from its other neighbours against the will of its government and a majority of its people.
Scotland is married to an abusive partner why wouldn't they look for someone else?
People trying to define this as some kind of national or geographical issue is half the problem
This whole thing is a cultural issue. The difference this has brought into such sharp focus is a difference in worldview
One that is liberal, forward-looking and doesn't really recognise international borders, is global and internationalist in its outlook and has no issue with immigration as they view its contribution positively.
And then there's its opposite, which is socially conservative, backwards-looking, insular, parochial and suspicious of immigrants
It has nothing to do with Geography
Membership and independence great for Scotland Just not for the UK
Scotland is married to an abusive partner why wouldn’t they look for someone else?
🙄
Binners though is right, must be a planetary alignment or something.
Having only 3 brain cells to rub together must be worse.
You have my sympathy.
Worse than what? Scottish Nationalism? Anyway High Five to you for being so cool/ clever and funny to boot!
My kids are in a Welsh Language school and the nationalism there sometimes makes me a little uncomfortable. I love the pride in the language and culture but often its just "Wales is the best!"
Just listening to Five Live at the moment. Nigel Farage has a lot to answer for, but right at the top of the list is releasing Anne ****ing Widdacombe back on the country.
When you're talking about socially conservative, backwards-looking, insular and parochial mindsets, she's that personified
A truly vile woman! She's the living embodiment of the nasty, intolerant, petty, small-minded Brexit worldview
CTK - either you don't understand the difference between scottish nationalism as espoused by the SNP and English Nationalism of the UKIP / Brexit / BNP type or you are making a deliberate false statement to wind up folk
either way its not big nor clever.
It's not where we came from that's important, it's where we're going together."
Thing is, there are so many parallels to be drawn between nationalist's efforts to remove Scotland from the UK, and the UK from the EU.
If you believe in both Scotland leaving the UK and the UK leaving the EU, I can understand your position, even if I disagree with it, but to believe in one but not the other? Afraid I just don't get it.
My country is better than yours and your country is dragging mine down.
My county is better than yours and your county is dragging mine down.
My town is better than yours and your town is dragging mine down.
My parish is better than yours and your parish is dragging mine down.
My street is better than yours and your street is dragging mine down.
My house is better than yours and your house is dragging mine down.
My family is better than yours and your family is dragging mine down.
Nationalism. Full f-ing retard.
PMQ's should be interesting today. I think we'll know then if it's me or TJ who's going to be gorging on steak bakes or cream cakes.
If Magic Grandad actually mentions Brexit then the cream cakes are uncle Jezza's
If he's banging on about rural bus services again then the stitch up is on, and the sausage rolls are mine
PMQ’s should be interesting today.
It is never interesting. If I was opposition leader I would abstain from it. Whatever question Corbyn asks the response will be "well under Labour it would be even more shit". Not even an attempt at answering the question. May might as well just say "your mum" as a response to everything.
Afraid I just don’t get it.
Try this… think about Ireland… look at the way the EU works for it… now picture how the UK would be treating it if it wasn't an independent country… can you see how very different the relationships would be? Now, when did the First Minister of Scotland have a say in UK wide policy in the same way that the Taoiseach has a say in Europe wide policy?
I don't want Scotland to leave the UK… but the UK and the EU are not anologous institutions… to want to be independent of the UK, yet a member of the EU, is an entirely consistent position. If I lived in Scotland I think the last 3 years may have moved my position towards precisely that, but obviously I can't be sure.
Not even an attempt at answering the question.
This is true. So you ask questions where a non-answer betrays the truth of a stagnated executive with no plan for the present (never mind the future). Your questions can suggest a clear alternative to the current logjam that 92% of polled voters disapprove of.
Thing is, there are so many parallels to be drawn between nationalist’s efforts to remove Scotland from the UK, and the UK from the EU.
Not really, as far as I recall there was never any argument for ending the 4 freedoms from the Scottish nationalists, it was purely about bringing decision making back to Scotland within the EU framework of co-operation. And frankly brexit has tested the UK governments promises to Scotland made during the Scottish referendum and shown them to be lies.
The brexiters, want to be rulers, they are for UK union because they believe they can bully the "minor" nations, but against European union, because there they have to co-operate rather than dictate.
And this is my view as an Englishman, who has only visited Scotland, I have no real skin in the game of Scottish independence.
My Union is better than yours and your union is dragging mine down.
My country is better than yours and your country is dragging mine down.
My county is better than yours and your county is dragging mine down.
My town is better than yours and your town is dragging mine down.
My parish is better than yours and your parish is dragging mine down.
My street is better than yours and your street is dragging mine down.
My house is better than yours and your house is dragging mine down.
My family is better than yours and your family is dragging mine down.Nationalism. Full f-ing retard.
Thing is, there are so many parallels to be drawn between nationalist’s efforts to remove Scotland from the UK, and the UK from the EU.
At the risk of derailing this thread, these parallels are?
DRY YOUR EYES NOW…
David Cameron Is 'Distraught' About Brexit, According To Former Advisor Gabby Bertin
I’m not seeking sympathy for him, but he is pretty distraught about it all.
PMQs
As is regularily the case… if you watch this week's PMQs on catch-up… just fast forward to the SNP questions (and the non-answers).
PMQ's was a bit 'don't mention the war' with Magic Grandad and the Maybot both happy not to even reference the local election results or Brexit.
It was up to those pesky Scottish Nats to point out the elephant in the room - the upcoming labour/tory Brexit stitch up
I reckon the pies are mine uncle Jezza 😀
TJ what is false about my statement?
I listened to PMQs on the radio and in my head JC and TM were giving each other little smiles and thumbs up. The football bit sounded scripted!
TJ what is false about my statement?
Pretty much everything. The motivations, ethics and actions are almost diametrically opposed. How about you tell us what the parallels are in your mind so we can demolish your argument.
Brexit + English Nationalism = backward-looking, xenophobic
Scottish Nationalism = forward-looking, inclusive
If you're trying to conflate the two, then you're probably in the first camp...
My prediction:
A cross-party deal will be proposed.
It will be laughed out of parliament.
Binners and TJ will then both claim they were right and have won.
2000 pages before the next brexit day deadline (whenever that is this week).
Cream puffs everywhere.
Is an eclair considered too continental to request, or should I stick to something typically British, like a flapjack?
Great example of some well cooked gammon on the Jeremy Vine show just now. Thought that pro-leaver was going to thump Alistair Campbell towards the end 🙂
With all the comments about independence and nationalism, I would remind you all it's VE day.
“When I say distraught, he’s not depressed or anything, but he cares deeply about this country. It’s a wrong perception that he is having a great time and washed his hands of it.”
That's okay folks, as you all were. Cameron isn't depressed or suffering from poor mental health as a result of opening the door to asset strippers, because he and his family will be absolutely fine. They've sufficient cash to spend on a very nice shed for £25k, while he's sad that he's caused permanent political, social and economic damage to a nation of circa 65m people, he's actually alright and can up sticks to wherever when it all kicks off.
With all the comments about independence and nationalism, I would remind you all it’s VE day.
And Gary Glitter's birthday.
🙄
Are you still "torn between both" @matt_outandabout?
Or have subsequent events made things clearer for you, one way or the other?
I would remind you all it’s VE day.
And? I think brexit could do with a lot less Second World War nostalgia. A war I might remind us all that ‘we’ didn’t win, because none (probably) of us were alive then.
I realise this isn’t going to add much to the debate, but I’m going to vent about it anyway
I’m sick of people spouting whatever they want on the radio without being challenged. It poisons the debates that people are trying to have.
Some conservative rep on PM (I didn’t hear who she was) asserted that “17.4m people voted to leave, and to leave with no deal”.
She doesn’t know that. I don’t know that, it can’t be known. But a large proportion of the campaign was all about leaving with good terms (and how easy that might all be) - no deal only became popular when nothing else seemed possible. To assert that EVERYONE voted for no deal as fact is just a lie - and I’m sick of people being allowed to do that without being challenged.
She then went on to claim that *all* Conservative MPs supported Raab...
Can we have honest factual debate please, and tell the liars to F off. Please.
The lies are essential to their cause though.
This is how democracy dies.
Challenging them seems to only amplifies their voice, and focusses attention on the message they want to get across.
And it's only just getting going.
Lessons have been learnt, repeated blatant lying works far better than the occasional exaggeration or biased interpretation. Lie all the time and the challenges just become noise for the electorate to filter out. The lies then stick, and as a bonus you look like the honest one standing up against the challenges… yup, the challenges about your lies help you to look like the force for truth… counterintuitive yet effective. It worked in the referendum, it worked in the presidential election, and it'll keep on working… and many politicians here are literally learning from the master (and Bannon who helped him hone his skills)… let's remind ourselves about his technique…
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html
So, given that the EU elections are a form of PR, how do I cast my vote to make it as unequivocally anti any form of Brexit as possible? LibDems or Greens or Tiggers and does it depend on where I am? Is there a groundswell ‘out there’ as to who other remainers are voting for?
I know there are various websites that advise on this too.....
Yes, depends on region, specifically how many MEPs your region has, and how strong the support for each party is there. North East is the worst IIRC… very likely that a split between 4changeUK/LibDems/Green there will result in 0 remain MEPs. Whereas in the South West it could well result in an MEP for each of these parties. Other regions are inbetween… but for most regions a LibDem vote is the safest way to try and get at least one Remain MEP in place.
Surely the biggest whopper of the whole charade has to go to aspiring Tory leader Rory Stewart?
He was being interviewed on Five Live when he just nonchalantly asserted the ‘fact’ that “80% of the public support Theresa Mays Deal”
When he was immediately challenged on that statement, he admitted he’d just plucked a (frankly ridiculous) figure out of the air, then asserted it as a fact
Sums up the whole debacle really, and the corrosive effect it’s having on politics and democracy
and the corrosive effect it’s having on politics and democracy
At least he backed down. The true pros would just insist it is true regardless.
When he was immediately challenged on that statement, he admitted he’d just plucked a (frankly ridiculous) figure out of the air, then asserted it as a fact
Not really the same thing. If he was playing the game, he'd have doubled down and appeared on other news outlets repeating his ad lib, and if they challenged him as well he'd then be pointing our how rattled the media elite are with him and those that he is speaking up for.
So, given that the EU elections are a form of PR, how do I cast my vote to make it as unequivocally anti any form of Brexit as possible?
I have asked changeuk and Anna Soubry on Twitter but had no response, so I guess I'll have to stick with LibDem and hope for the best.
How to vote tactically in the EU elections for Remainers
Best in depth analysis of where to put your vote I have seen so far
If you consider the EU elections to merely be a substitute referendum then voting is simpler - just choose a party that is either clearly in favour of Brexit or one that is clearly against. The total number of votes cast for each party across the UK will be available after the event.
The BBC are reporting rumours May is talking about a fourth crack at getting her Deal through next week
She wouldn’t be doing that unless something has shifted
Looks like the stitch up is go!
Do both. Send a message via total vote for unequivocally Remain parties AND get as many MEPs from these parties into the EU parliament as possible. It is highly likely they'll be working for us for quite some time… come what may…
I wouldn't count your cream cakes yet Binners.
She wouldn’t be doing that unless something has shifted
She is known for being intransigent and/or likes playing chicken, so I wouldn't read too much into that.
edit
Or have subsequent events made things clearer for you, one way or the other?
Buried in this monster thread early on was me coming firmly down on the remain a part of Europe, work with our friends and neighbours and continue to benefit from the many things it offers.
This posted from Bratislava on an Erasmus+ project for work.
Storyville, Brexit: Behind Closed Doors: Part 1:
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0004vyd
Meanwhile.... in the cloud cuckooland that passes for the Labour leaders office
Corbyn seeks to make Euro elections about social justice, not Brexit, as he launches Labour campaign
Yes.... thats bound to work you stupid beardy clown. Its the EU elections. The clue's in the title... the EU elections. Perhaps if we don't mention the EU, or Brexit, everyone else will just forget about it too?
Just when you think that Corbyns position cant get any more ridiculous...?
Perhaps if we don’t mention the EU
Leaving aside you seem stuck on just a headline rather than what Labour are actually pushing.
Why are you taking from it that its not mentioning the EU as opposed to pushing what they believe the EU should stand for and what their representatives would be voting for?
What are Labour "actually pushing"…?
https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1126080808496844801?s=21
https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1126159403286171650?s=21
No mention of the preferred "alternative plan" to implement Brexit that the manifesto sketches out and would "deliver on the result of the referendum".
‘We must spell it out now, Labour is a Remain party’
Somebody best tell Barry Gardiner then. And Jezza. And Seamus. And Len
Its going to come as a hell of a shock
It's the same approach as Watson… state what you would like Labour policy to be, but in such as way as to allow voters to conflate it with what the policy is (and by policy I mean as currently being acted out by those leading the party, not the vague fudge members got to vote on).
Eins Extra have found some rich-as-pig-shit, detached-from-realitiy, boat-sailing old Tory men to interview about Brexit with predictable bleating. Most amusing. Then Grieve, then Farrage then someone gardening to finish warning Brits won't accept anything other than a good hard Brexit.
From where I'm sitting it's laughable, from where most of you are sitting it's not a laughing matter. Vote wisely if you get the chance.
Lots of hot air & p1ss but overwhelmingly still a Pro Brexit party then. Don’t be fooled by the guff - JC still wants Brexit, he just wants it to be one that he’s implemented!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48208846
It is indeed hot air and piss, as you so nicely put it…
https://twitter.com/biuk/status/1126444090550308864?s=21
Labour are a Brexit party…
https://twitter.com/bbcnormans/status/1126430832951009280?s=21
So, given that the EU elections are a form of PR, how do I cast my vote to make it as unequivocally anti any form of Brexit as possible?
You don't, you vote for the MEP you want...
The problem is that these "European Elections" are now anything but European elections in reality, we're really meant to be voting for our potential MEPs NOT voting on Effing Brexit again.
Let's be honest UKIP, the Brexit party and anyone remotely pro-Brexit really have no business putting anyone up as an MEP because they have no real intention of taking up the role, an active dislike of the institution, but depending on how things go between now and October there is now the potential for anyone elected as an MEP to have to participate in the European parliament...
I'm not keen to have SYL or Farage sent over to Brussels (again) as our representative, even if it is just for a couple of weeks...
The press have a lot to answer for in all of this, listening to R4 this morning while they were supposedly discussing the upcoming EU elections with a Tory MP, they were really having yet another Brexit discussion. The actual purpose of these elections has simply been forgotten.
The worry for the Lab/Con "Major" parties seems to be that the Brexit ultra parties will split their 50% "Leave Biased" voter base. While the likes of the Lib-dems, CHUK and the Greens will potentially split their 50% "Remain biased" voter base... But I can't actually tell why they are interested in winning any EU seats anyway. It's an election so they need to "win" even if the prize is something they don't want...
Still at it I see.
Happy Europe Da<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">y everybody.</span>
how do I cast my vote to make it as unequivocally anti any form of Brexit as possible?
This may be of interest.
TL;DR, it says:
Live in England, vote Lib Dem.
Live in Scotland: vote SNP.
Live in Wales: vote Plaid.
Live in NI: their system is different and we haven't worked it out yet.
Cannot ignore 17m who backed leave, he says
But perfectly fine to ignore 16m who backed remain. Fox sakes.
binners
Subscriber
The BBC are reporting rumours May is talking about a fourth crack at getting her Deal through next week
She wouldn’t be doing that unless something has shifted
Um, that's what happened the last 2 times she brought it forward.
Besides, the stitch up is definitely happening this week isn't it?
But perfectly fine to ignore 16m who backed remain. Fox sakes.
That's in line with the (apparent) current policy of the majority of politicians to ignore any and all voter wishes isn't it?
Besides, the stitch up is definitely happening this week isn’t it?
It is indeed...
It would make my year if Binners won and TJ bought him a gift card which could only be redeemed against Greggs vegan sausage rolls.
If a General Election were called and If Labour went full Brexit. How likely would they be to win?
Assuming that they did, how would they get their "full Brexit" through/past parliament?
Have you not been paying attention? Within a week of taking over, Grandad will have negotiated a magic 'cake-and-eat-it' Red Unicorn Brexit deal with the EU. Freedom of movement will end, but we will retain tariff-free access to the single market and all the other advantages of EU membership, all without paying owt in.
Once thats all sorted, it will be nodded though parliament and a grateful nation will unite behind Jeremy, rejoice and embrace a bright socialist future, free from the tyranny of the evil capitalist oppressors in Brussels
The worry for the Lab/Con “Major” parties seems to be that the Brexit ultra parties will split their 50% “Leave Biased” voter base. While the likes of the Lib-dems, CHUK and the Greens will potentially split their 50% “Remain biased” voter base… But I can’t actually tell why they are interested in winning any EU seats anyway. It’s an election so they need to “win” even if the prize is something they don’t want…
They're not bothered in the slightest about the EU elections, it just happens they're going to be held, tories were quite open about planning not to fight them, the only thing that's changed is they're fielding candidates because they should. Neither party has any intention of people taking seats in the next EU parliament regardless of the outcome of the EU elections, 6 weeks ago Labour might have been interested but now? No.
Both Labour and tories are now very aware that, if they haven't agreed a brexit deal between them before the next GE it's going to be painful indeed. Hence suddenly being able to make progress in talks which have failed to even start before the local elections. Brexit done appalingly means no grounds for ukip/brexit party on the one side, nor remain parties on the other to campaign on beyond the things they've secured no votes on for years. Much better than having a brilliant solution on the table but unpassed by the time of the next ge. This is now about survival for both main parties and neither has any interest in the collateral damage.
Have you not been paying attention? Within a week of taking over, Grandad will have
Begrudgingly agreed a swift resolution to to risk of voters having a choice in brexit next election, whip the Labour Party in fear of their seats to support it then blame the whole shitty mess on TM because the electorate has the memory of a goldfish